Chit-Chat: Welcome to the Strategies & Movesets forum for Sun & Moon!

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The first bit was just me saying "I know it wasn't 3-5 people who made the call like my previous joke might imply." As for your analyzation though - yeah 'objectively wrong' is not the best phrasing for what the majority that wanted the ban will be faced with considering the current banlist as- something along the lines of simply 'biased' or 'flawed' is probably closer to what it might be seen as from the perspective of someone forced to deal with mega metagross when they truly and wholeheartedly thought it was deserving of a ban.

It is nice to see recognition that said system can possibly have inherent flaws though - sometimes it seems like it's believed to be absolute. Anywho enough from me on that.

skyburial said:
Some of us like to use our mythical and title legendaries competitively though ^_^
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Adamant mewtwo with burn orb for OU mkay

Also sky nice new avatar lol I see you there
 
Polar Spectrum said:
Adamant mewtwo with burn orb for OU mkay

Also sky nice new avatar lol I see you there
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Moar lyk LandoKeldeo cores erry day, bra.

What kind of irks me about smogon this generation, while we're still in this murky post-ban period during which everyone's got a soap box, is why there wasn't a mid-generation review process of some sort for the ORAS changes. In my observation, the following banned Pokemon aren't nearly as threatening as they were in 2014:

Blaziken
Mega Blaziken
Mega Lucario

The other bans are completely justified, IMO, and the accusation of Aegislash, Megawhile etc. overcentralizing the meta is completely corroborated by other formats where they are legal (Battle Spot, for instance). I can't remember the last time I was legitimately threatened by a Blaziken. They're paper frail and I've only ever seen one with Baton Pass because it's impossible to breed it onto a Speed Boost Torchic (so you can only do it with a Power Save).

blah blah blah stuff that doesn't matter to Showdown players
 
please explain to me how mega blaziken or even blaziken isnt threatening as compared to xy?
o and mega lucario.
 
Well, if we're to take the Global Link stats as an indicator.

I'd actually say that the addition of Landorus, Suicune (far more popular on cartridge than Showdown), and Mega Salamence to the format is what rendered Blaziken obsolete, and in addition, I don't see how it was ever able to get past Gale Wings Brave Bird, bulky Garchomp variants, Choice Band Aqua Jet and the like, but I'm a late starter on this gen so maybe someone can illuminate that experience.

Landorus-T had a similar effect on Lucario in cartridge matches, and all Luc's popular moves are walled by Talonflame.
 
Weren't they considering re-testing a few banned pokes or am I thinking of something else?
 
I still loathe mega blaziken, like, I hope it gets earth powered by 1,000 stunfisk, but I could hear azumarill's aqua jet, mega sableye, gale wings, horrifying flying bug creature with quick attack, and stuff just scaring it out too often.

Then again; I am no swagon singles theorist. Someone before me has undoubtedly considered those things and reasoned a teammate's switch in which rectifies all of those possible scenarios. I haven't even run calcs. I'm just going off general knowledge on what all those hits would do to the still very frail mega blaziken.

Mega Lucario, honestly I'm just glad it's not banned in doubles. mufugga goes down in like one mach punch, seriously
 
skyburial said:
Well, if we're to take the Global Link stats as an indicator.

I'd actually say that the addition of Landorus, Suicune (far more popular on cartridge than Showdown), and Mega Salamence to the format is what rendered Blaziken obsolete, and in addition, I don't see how it was ever able to get past Gale Wings Brave Bird, bulky Garchomp variants, Choice Band Aqua Jet and the like, but I'm a late starter on this gen so maybe someone can illuminate that experience.

Landorus-T had a similar effect on Lucario in cartridge matches, and all Luc's popular moves are walled by Talonflame.
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Swords Dance/protect/HJK/Flare Blitz

+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 216-255 (65.2 - 77%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 164-193 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 179-211 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 165-195 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 204-240 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 405-477 (96.4 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 357-420 (88.3 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 129-153 (33.7 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery means it can switch in once with SR up and then its done if Blaze sds later in the match.


As for Lucario, again talonflame cannot check it.

SD/Close Combat/Ice Punch, Iron Tail or Crunch/Bullet Punch or Extremespeed was the standard physiucal mega luke set for ou iirc. Dark Pulse/Flash Cannon/Nasty Plot/Aura Sphere was also common

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 187-221 (62.9 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 156-184 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also Extremespeed bypasses priority brave bird should Lucario run that.

-1 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 184-220 (48.1 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also the special set slaughters Landorus.

None of these checks and counters are able to switch in with like ANY prior damage, plus they are all stupidly easy to wear down.
 
Dark Azelf said:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 156-184 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
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Waiwaiwait holdon, forgive and correct me if I'm just like; bad at this - because I am concerning singles, but isn't like


Adamant Ratata Return an OHKO on talonflame after stealth rocks???

If you're using a talonflame wouldn't you in turn be using something to get rid of rocks???? Just seems like rocks alone could make anything ohko talonflame in cut and dry calc copy paste
 
Polar Spectrum said:
Waiwaiwait holdon, forgive and correct me if I'm just like; bad at this - because I am concerning singles, but isn't like


Adamant Ratata Return an OHKO on talonflame after stealth rocks???

If you're using a talonflame wouldn't you in turn be using something to get rid of rocks???? Just seems like rocks alone could make anything ohko talonflame in cut and dry calc copy paste
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It illustrates you have to keep it at stupidly high health to "check" blaziken. Even without rocks its a shit check because it dies essentially in the process. Stealth Rock is just the icing on the cake for Talon being a shit check to it tbh.
 
Polar Spectrum said:
It is nice to see recognition that said system can possibly have inherent flaws though - sometimes it seems like it's believed to be absolute. Anywho enough from me on that.
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Speaking to the bolded part, I don't think anyone actually believes this.

Polar Spectrum said:
Waiwaiwait holdon, forgive and correct me if I'm just like; bad at this - because I am concerning singles, but isn't like

Adamant Ratata Return an OHKO on talonflame after stealth rocks???

If you're using a talonflame wouldn't you in turn be using something to get rid of rocks???? Just seems like rocks alone could make anything ohko talonflame in cut and dry calc copy paste
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Talonflame has decent bulk. In any case, while Talon teams are often super determined to control the hazards game, the truth is that this is simply impossible to do reliably and consistency. If Talonflame is your sole check to Pokemon X, Pokemon X is going to give you problems, even if you're running it with Mega Sableye and Starmie for hazard control.
 
So I have been using the the guideline tread in this section, but the more I think about the more I get confused on trying to build my competivite team, so I was think of using talonflame, shuckle for stealth rock and excadrill as a spinner, but now I don't know if I have this team out right
 
WolfMirage said:
So I have been using the the guideline tread in this section, but the more I think about the more I get confused on trying to build my competivite team, so I was think of using talonflame, shuckle for stealth rock and excadrill as a spinner, but now I don't know if I have this team out right
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there are much better stealth rock setters/leads in ou, such as garchomp, mamoswine, lando-t, ferro, etc but if you insist on using shuckle for whatever reasons then it's your choice

i would go for something more offensive like garchomp or mamo seeing as you have an offensive team in mind. ferrothorn and other slow, defensive stuff are passive and momentum killers, which offensive teams do not appreciate.
 
WolfMirage said:
So I have been using the the guideline tread in this section, but the more I think about the more I get confused on trying to build my competivite team, so I was think of using talonflame, shuckle for stealth rock and excadrill as a spinner, but now I don't know if I have this team out right
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For one all of those mons are weak to Water, and 2 are weak to rock, so it makes for a pretty vulnerable start to a team. I'm not usually one to carry utility pokemon with common weaknesses (you're looking for a safe switch here), so I'd recommend using Starmie for Rapid Spin instead, or going for a different rock setter, as revere mentioned.
 
Okay, I think I understand. I just shuckle would have been a good choice, cause it as high defence and special defence and what I understand setting entry hazards r very important, so I thought shuckle should be prefect as a suicide entry layer
 
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WolfMirage said:
Okay, I think I understand. I just shuckle would have been a good choice, cause it as high defence and special defence and what I understand setting entry hazards r very important, so I thought shuckle should be prefect as a suicide entry layer
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you do not want a suicide rocker unless you're playing ho (hyper offense) which is another thing but ill refrain from explaining unless you want me (or others experienced enough) to explain.

stealth rock is really important in just about any standard ou battle which can turn some 3hko's into 2hko's and stuff like that, due to the chip damage dealt when a pokemon switches in, even in the slightest bit. most teams will pack a rapid spinner/defogger to get rid of rocks or any entry hazard in general to prevent their pokemon from taking chip damage every time they switch in, so you will want a constant stealth rock setter in case your opponent has removed your previous rocks.
 
Okay that's easier to understand, the guides that were here on PC really aren't made for beginners to understand. Okay so if I'm gonna use talonflame, I need fast and heavy hiting pokes right or wrong
 
WolfMirage said:
Okay, I think I understand. I just shuckle would have been a good choice, cause it as high defence and special defence and what I understand setting entry hazards r very important, so I thought shuckle should be prefect as a suicide entry layer
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Shuckle is awesome, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. As far as support move pools go it's got a hard one to beat. I like running Sticky Web, Stealth Rock, Encore and an attack move on mine (keeps Taunt from ruining its day). It should do pretty well with Starmie too, or a Defog user like Scizor if you opt out of Rapid Spin.

Also, entry hazards are pretty pivotal in singles, but if you focus on them too much, like anything else in the meta, your moves become predictable and your team takes some serious hits. You can do well in singles with or without entry hazards, it's a playstyle thing. You should definitely try out Shuckle though (Y)
 
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