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What happens if you die?(part 1)

The only people that do know are the ones who have died. As a Christian I do tend to believe in heaven and hell, but to the extent of human knowledge, anything could happen to you.
 
Here's a question, why do people believe people go to hell, or for that matter go to hell to begin with?

Among the not so original translation, it is said (in the Bible) that Satan turned from God...

Now isn't this completely impossible? Cannot God dictate whether or not he [sic] wanted a hell?

Death does seem to be an important thing for the religious... I really can't understand why...

First off, Feign, when you refer to the Christian God, it is actually grammatically correct to say "He" instead of "he." There is no singular gender-neutral pronoun in the English language, so in order to differentiate between men (who have gender) and God (who does not), "He" is used.

Anyway, some would argue that God's word describes a set of spiritual laws, similar to physics but geared towards the spiritual plane. Satan's disobedience towards God was the first instance of anything like that happening, so Hell was revealed then as the place beings go when they disobey God. It's like a trait of the spiritual plane: disobey God, end up in Hell.

So what is Hell, then? As far as my understanding goes, it is the complete spiritual separation from God's presence. Just like oil and water don't mix, God and sin don't mix. To have sin is to disobey God is to be separated from Him. It's all kind of intuitive if you think about it that way, at least in my opinion.
 
It should be noted that since this discussion is religious, we must consider the beliefs of those who are non-Christians (such as myself) and thus use God as a reference to God, Gods or no God. :p

From an external viewpoint, Hell is a sort of mechanism religion creates to tell people what is right and wrong to do, and tells them with one big ass stick that going around screwing everyone and killing them is NOT the most civil thing to do. You wanna go kill a bunch of people and drink their blood? Go for it, but be warned - you're gonna end up in a place where they torture you for all eternity, so make sure that when you're killing those people that it's really worth it.

From a religious viewpoint, Hell is the incarnation of blasphemy and heresy. Problem is, what you deem as "blasphemy" and "heresy" differs from person to person, making entrance to Hell a difficult to define. This problem is shared with entrance to Heaven.

Personally, I take a middle road. I actually believe that life is more of a Hell than any place (mainly because if it is to exist within the Earth, there would have been caverns within it and would affect seismic waves) and that by passing through Hell successfully, you attain happiness, which is Heaven. It's symbolic rather than literal, but one's interpretation changes from individual to individual, so most probably do not share this belief.

A lot of people think that God is a guy who wants to zap you with lightning on the slightest misstep, but I always perceived Him more of an open-minded father that than a guy who wants to torture and kill you if you don't follow His direct route. He wants to lead you in a certain direction, but He won't necessarily be upset if you go one way or the other. Of course, there are extremes which are not acceptable to any parent, such as going around murdering people in droves, and by doing that you get whacked along the line, but simply by believing in Him in a different way? I don't think God would hate us for different interpretations of Him - in fact, I think He might think it's quite beautiful how many different interpretations of Him we have created as a species. I don't even think He hates Atheists, because if you think about it, Atheists think the universe is completely science, and science could easily represent a God-like force to them.

Hell is a test, Heaven is the reward for passing. Simple much?

Hell is also a small town in Michigan, USA. lol
 
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First off, Feign, when you refer to the Christian God, it is actually grammatically correct to say "He" instead of "he." There is no singular gender-neutral pronoun in the English language, so in order to differentiate between men (who have gender) and God (who does not), "He" is used.

Anyway, some would argue that God's word describes a set of spiritual laws, similar to physics but geared towards the spiritual plane. Satan's disobedience towards God was the first instance of anything like that happening, so Hell was revealed then as the place beings go when they disobey God. It's like a trait of the spiritual plane: disobey God, end up in Hell.

So what is Hell, then? As far as my understanding goes, it is the complete spiritual separation from God's presence. Just like oil and water don't mix, God and sin don't mix. To have sin is to disobey God is to be separated from Him. It's all kind of intuitive if you think about it that way, at least in my opinion.
Why didn't he create hell in the first place, since he is omnipotent? Hell(no pun intended), why did he create the devil? Why didn't he destroy him yet? He can do anything, can't he?
I don't even see why he made heathens in the first place, seeing as how he made us so that we would all burn forever in writhing agony(in what most people consider as hell these days, it wasn't anything like that back then :| ).
This all sounds like a novel.
Maybe, 'I have no mouth and I must scream'?
 
I honestly don't believe in the story of Lucifer myself - I think it is more of a symbolic gesture than anything.

Basically, angel goes around, acts like he's all that, tries to show how great he is by starting a war, other angels dis him and God says "you're kind of an A-hole," and then POP Lucy goes to hell.

If you look at it in a symbolic viewpoint, you can easily see how it can apply to humans. How many times have you run into someone that acts like he's better than you? The story is one that says "Hey, don't be a self-righteous prick and people won't hate on you", but gives the "won't hate on you" part a bit of a torturous meaning so that it would get pretty well across to the early Christian community (HOLY [bleep]! THAT'S WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN TO ME IF I ACT LIKE THAT? D:)

How you interpret any religious text, whether literally, symbolically or labeling it completely as false, is really just how you look at it. I personally look at the Bible and see both a literal history and a symbolic story intertwined together to form a mesh, although I see other important religious texts like that as well. It's the parts I believe exist literally that define my religious, and that's actually a fairly small part of that big book.
 
So what is Hell, then? As far as my understanding goes, it is the complete spiritual separation from God's presence. Just like oil and water don't mix, God and sin don't mix. To have sin is to disobey God is to be separated from Him. It's all kind of intuitive if you think about it that way, at least in my opinion.
In Islam Hell is exactly what it's described elsewhere, only worse. Instead of all that fire and brimstone stuff, the fire in Hell having been burning for billions of years, is now black and the deepest part of the seven hells(Jahannam) is the darkest, hottest place in existence. That's the Islamic perspective and what I learned in school anyway.

Personally, I take a middle road. I actually believe that life is more of a Hell than any place (mainly because if it is to exist within the Earth, there would have been caverns within it and would affect seismic waves) and that by passing through Hell successfully, you attain happiness, which is Heaven. It's symbolic rather than literal, but one's interpretation changes from individual to individual, so most probably do not share this belief.

A lot of people think that God is a guy who wants to zap you with lightning on the slightest misstep, but I always perceived Him more of an open-minded father that than a guy who wants to torture and kill you if you don't follow His direct route. He wants to lead you in a certain direction, but He won't necessarily be upset if you go one way or the other. Of course, there are extremes which are not acceptable to any parent, such as going around murdering people in droves, and by doing that you get whacked along the line, but simply by believing in Him in a different way? I don't think God would hate us for different interpretations of Him - in fact, I think He might think it's quite beautiful how many different interpretations of Him we have created as a species. I don't even think He hates Atheists, because if you think about it, Atheists think the universe is completely science, and science could easily represent a God-like force to them.
Actually, It is noted in Islam, that if you sin on earth while you're alive, Earth becomes a living hell for you. In the literal meaning, bad things end up happening to you more often and you become miserable.


Why didn't he create hell in the first place, since he is omnipotent? Hell(no pun intended), why did he create the devil? Why didn't he destroy him yet? He can do anything, can't he?
I don't even see why he made heathens in the first place, seeing as how he made us so that we would all burn forever in writhing agony(in what most people consider as hell these days, it wasn't anything like that back then :| ).
This all sounds like a novel.
Maybe, 'I have no mouth and I must scream'?
Hell(pun intended), why did he create humans in the first place. The simple answer is, because he can.

I honestly don't believe in the story of Lucifer myself - I think it is more of a symbolic gesture than anything.

Basically, angel goes around, acts like he's all that, tries to show how great he is by starting a war, other angels dis him and God says "you're kind of an A-hole," and then POP Lucy goes to hell.
From an Islamic perspective, Satan, otherwise known as Iblis, was a Djinn loyal to Allah. He was a being made of fire as opposed to the Angels who were made of Light. When God created Adam, he ordered everyone to bow down to his creation. Everyone but Iblis did. And from that point on, God banished him for disobeying his orders and that when the End arrives, he will be the first in Hell.

Iblis also stated that he would try to bring along as many souls as he could to hell, so he with his fellow bad Djinn(Shaitan), do that to this very day.

It should be noted that Iblis only dies after the last Man has died when Israfil(Raphael) blows his flute.
 
In Islam Hell is exactly what it's described elsewhere, only worse. Instead of all that fire and brimstone stuff, the fire in Hell having been burning for billions of years, is now black and the deepest part of the seven hells(Jahannam) is the darkest, hottest place in existence. That's the Islamic perspective and what I learned in school anyway.
Nice literature, no supporting evidence.

Actually, It is noted in Islam, that if you sin on earth while you're alive, Earth becomes a living hell for you. In the literal meaning, bad things end up happening to you more often and you become miserable.
My ass. I've seen bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. More often than not, bad people are in high political positions. Saddam Hussein was killed only a few years ago, and he was in power for more than 2 decades. The one death of him didn't bring the lives of others back, or somehow undo what was wrong. How does someone who sinned so much have such a great life for that long?
Hell(pun intended), why did he create humans in the first place. The simple answer is, because he can.

Your logic is flawless.
 

Nice literature, no supporting evidence.


My ass. I've seen bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. More often than not, bad people are in high political positions. Saddam Hussein was killed only a few years ago, and he was in power for more than 2 decades. The one death of him didn't bring the lives of others back, or somehow undo what was wrong. How does someone who sinned so much have such a great life for that long?


Your logic is flawless.
Now now, come on, there's no reason to assume you're right either. We really can't assume anyone's right or wrong. There's no reason to bash him because he believes in the Qu'ran, as he has no reason to bash because you don't believe in a religion at all. Your beliefs may be shockingly similar if you take a step back instead of trying to point to everything you disagree with.
 
Now now, come on, there's no reason to assume you're right either. We really can't assume anyone's right or wrong. There's no reason to bash her because she believes in the Qu'ran, as she has no reason to bash because you don't believe in a religion at all.

BESIDES THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT DEATH TALK ABOUT DEATH ALREADY LOLOLOL

I hope you know about the burden of proof. When you claim something objective, you better have evidence to back it up.
Religion has a lot to do with death anyways, so they are related :>
 


I hope you know about the burden of proof. When you claim something objective, you better have evidence to back it up.
Religion has a lot to do with death anyways, so they are related :>
The problem with evidence however is the fact that it cannot be accepted by everyone. Some people use Jesus as evidence, which I cannot accept, but those same people can't accept Darwin's finches.

Another problem is that even though you can prove that science exists, you cannot prove one way or the other that a being that initiated such processes exists. You, being someone obviously who lives by the laws of science, believes in investigating and proof. This may be true, but at the same token, what are we to do when something that we do not understand a concept, and do not have anything to explain why? God, or rather a belief, serves as a decent buffer for what we cannot explain to those who can accept such beliefs, but those who cannot do not use this buffer. It may turn out that the buffer is unneeded, and that we were wrong, but there's no way in knowing either way. It might just be better to stand on the fence for something so subjective.

There is a point in which all the science in the world cannot explain why something happened. We can ask a million whys, but there will always be one to follow it. Think of it as a mathematical limit. There will be some point we will never attain, never reach no matter how much work we put into it.

It also seems more like Mizan is simply stating his beliefs, so stop being a self righteous ass.

Yep, that's why I edited my post. Lol that was stupid to say XD
 
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I'm late in responding and this is what happens?


Nice literature, no supporting evidence.
It's in the Quran and the Prophet Idris was once showed the horrors of hell by Izrail(Malaykat Al-Maut). Besides, I can't go through hundreds of pages of the Quran and Hadith compilations just to prove one point.

My ass. I've seen bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. More often than not, bad people are in high political positions. Saddam Hussein was killed only a few years ago, and he was in power for more than 2 decades. The one death of him didn't bring the lives of others back, or somehow undo what was wrong. How does someone who sinned so much have such a great life for that long?
When bad things happen to good people God is testing them. When something good happens to bad people, it's called 'Istidraj'. Istidraj happens to be one of the five unusual occurrences that happen to people during life because of God's will. God loves all his creations. Istidraj is kind of like when someone does so much wrong and God is like, "Fine, be a Dick now and I'll let you have your fun, because you'll burn in hell anyway.

If you're curious the five things are:
1. Karamah: Only happens to the religious.
2. Irhas: To those about to be elected as a Prophet
3. Maunah: To those who desperately need help and ask God for it. Remember the 7 Sleepers?
4. Istidraj: as explained above. ^
5. Magic: Usually with the aid of Djinn. Completely 'Haram'(not allowed). For reasons which I 'm not sure how to put in words.

Now now, come on, there's no reason to assume you're right either. We really can't assume anyone's right or wrong. There's no reason to bash him because he believes in the Qu'ran, as he has no reason to bash because you don't believe in a religion at all. Your beliefs may be shockingly similar if you take a step back instead of trying to point to everything you disagree with.
Thank you for that. :D
 
I believe that you move on to the Afterlife when you die. Either Heaven or Hell. (You all be trippin' in Hell now.)
 
And I find it immature and stupid to base a person on what they believe, rather than what they did.
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." The whole point of Christ's sacrifice is that good deeds alone cannot bring salvation to man. Faith alone redeems mankind.
I get many Christians telling me that I'll burn because I don't believe in their magic man, and I'd get that crap from Muslims and other similar religions no matter what it is.
so no purgatory?
The magic thing again. How quaint.

No, there's no Purgatory. There's Sheol, or the place of the dead, but that's it. The souls of unbelievers from there on go to Hell upon final judgment. The righteous will go straight to Heaven if their names are written in the Book of Life.
And FYI, there isn't any evidence of this supposed miracle outside of the Bible.
I sure do hope that you will mention Josephus as a historian recording the saving of mankind.
There's plenty of evidence for Christ's story IF you're willing to hold the story of the Bible to the same standards as any other historical fact from thousands of years ago.
 
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Why didn't he create hell in the first place, since he is omnipotent? Hell(no pun intended), why did he create the devil? Why didn't he destroy him yet? He can do anything, can't he?
I don't even see why he made heathens in the first place, seeing as how he made us so that we would all burn forever in writhing agony(in what most people consider as hell these days, it wasn't anything like that back then :| ).
This all sounds like a novel.
Maybe, 'I have no mouth and I must scream'?

You have to understand that Satan was a good guy at first, a high-ranking angel in fact. It was Satan who turned on God, not the other way around. God gave His entire creation free will, and Satan used that gift to betray his creator.

Now, God hasn't killed Satan because that would contradict His giving free will to the guy. The definition of free will is that you can do what you want. However, that doesn't mean there aren't laws. Breaking those laws has consequences, and in Satan's case, the consequence was ending up in Hell. (Also, I don't know when God created Hell. He may very well have made it a long time ago, but then again He created Earth fairly recently in the scheme of things, so I don't know.)

On top of that, humans were originally perfect beings meant to live forever. God didn't "make us so we would burn in Hell." We ourselves chose that fate when we disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Luckily He created another way into Heaven by sending his son to die a blameless death.
 
The problem with evidence however is the fact that it cannot be accepted by everyone. Some people use Jesus as evidence, which I cannot accept, but those same people can't accept Darwin's finches.

Another problem is that even though you can prove that science exists, you cannot prove one way or the other that a being that initiated such processes exists.
And you know this how? As much as I like to agree with you, and I do know that science can't explain everything, but I would like to see you give a source to your negative. See the flaw there? I do accept historical evidence, but not anecdotal. I don't care if you saw Jesus when you tried LSD, that won't work with a different person who didn't see the same thing.
There is a point in which all the science in the world cannot explain why something happened. We can ask a million whys, but there will always be one to follow it. Think of it as a mathematical limit. There will be some point we will never attain, never reach no matter how much work we put into it.
I never disagreed with you on that point. I can accept historical evidence(which is not scientific, but it is still right) as long as it is accurate.

It also seems more like Mizan is simply stating his beliefs, so stop being a self righteous ass.
No.

It's in the Quran and the Prophet Idris was once showed the horrors of hell by Izrail(Malaykat Al-Maut). Besides, I can't go through hundreds of pages of the Quran and Hadith compilations just to prove one point.
Where else were these events recorded? Please tell me.

When bad things happen to good people God is testing them. When something good happens to bad people, it's called 'Istidraj'. Istidraj happens to be one of the five unusual occurrences that happen to people during life because of God's will. God loves all his creations. Istidraj is kind of like when someone does so much wrong and God is like, "Fine, be a Dick now and I'll let you have your fun, because you'll burn in hell anyway.
This sounds an awful lot like we are being tested by our faith. I don't see any reason why the true god(if there is one and humanity has a grasp on it) can't be bothered to just come down and make a cameo appearance. When Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, Zeus, or any other god comes down and I see them(while knowing that it isn't a hallucination of any kind), then I will immediately convert.

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." The whole point of Christ's sacrifice is that good deeds alone cannot bring salvation to man. Faith alone redeems mankind.

So even though he is infinitely benevolent, he must have a sacrifice? If it were up to me, I would just forgive the people, I wouldn't do a human sacrifice.
The magic thing again. How quaint.

No, there's no Purgatory. There's Sheol, or the place of the dead, but that's it. The souls of unbelievers from there on go to Hell upon final judgment. The righteous will go straight to Heaven if their names are written in the Book of Life.
Sorry bud, but when you do things like make fish and bread out of thin air, you are magic. And lets not forget Him fertilizing Mary so she could give birth to Him and later He would sacrifice Himself to Himself. There isn't any way around it. He is a magician.
There's plenty of evidence for Christ's story IF you're willing to hold the story of the Bible to the same standards as any other historical fact from thousands of years ago.

The Bible was never meant to be taken as a serious history book all the way through. A work of literature mixed with history, sure, but not one with complete historical accuracy. Please tell me people outside of the bible that talked about Jesus Christ, the famed savior of the human race.
You have to understand that Satan was a good guy at first, a high-ranking angel in fact. It was Satan who turned on God, not the other way around. God gave His entire creation free will, and Satan used that gift to betray his creator.

Now, God hasn't killed Satan because that would contradict His giving free will to the guy. The definition of free will is that you can do what you want. However, that doesn't mean there aren't laws. Breaking those laws has consequences, and in Satan's case, the consequence was ending up in Hell. (Also, I don't know when God created Hell. He may very well have made it a long time ago, but then again He created Earth fairly recently in the scheme of things, so I don't know.)

On top of that, humans were originally perfect beings meant to live forever. God didn't "make us so we would burn in Hell." We ourselves chose that fate when we disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Luckily He created another way into Heaven by sending his son to die a blameless death.

That isn't free will. That is an ultimatum. You have to decide something within a certain amount of time, and the 'wrong' choice leads to punishment.
I'll give you free will in this style.


Let's go get some coffee.
You can choose whatever store you want, but if you don't choose Starbucks, I will beat you near death with a bat.
 
First off, Feign, when you refer to the Christian God, it is actually grammatically correct to say "He" instead of "he." There is no singular gender-neutral pronoun in the English language, so in order to differentiate between men (who have gender) and God (who does not), "He" is used.

Anyway, some would argue that God's word describes a set of spiritual laws, similar to physics but geared towards the spiritual plane. Satan's disobedience towards God was the first instance of anything like that happening, so Hell was revealed then as the place beings go when they disobey God. It's like a trait of the spiritual plane: disobey God, end up in Hell.

So what is Hell, then? As far as my understanding goes, it is the complete spiritual separation from God's presence. Just like oil and water don't mix, God and sin don't mix. To have sin is to disobey God is to be separated from Him. It's all kind of intuitive if you think about it that way, at least in my opinion.


You forgot "It" XD :P Being in a male dominated society though, it is obvious as to why "He" would have dominated.

While I completely understand of what you mean and otherwise referring to or talking about, being my Deist self, I simply do not believe in a Heaven or Hell, or Satan for that matter or Fate either. XD

I hope that clarifies at least my reasoning in terms of death. :)
 
So even though he is infinitely benevolent, he must have a sacrifice? If it were up to me, I would just forgive the people, I wouldn't do a human sacrifice.
He sent His only son *because* he is infinitely benevolent. Rather than requiring burned offerings and sacrifices to be continually made, Christ served as the final and ultimate sacrifice to atone for our sins. And you focus way too much on the sacrifice aspect. The crucifixion is not the main focus of the faith; the resurrection is the main highlight of Christianity.
Sorry bud, but when you do things like make fish and bread out of thin air, you are magic. And lets not forget Him fertilizing Mary so she could give birth to Him and later He would sacrifice Himself to Himself. There isn't any way around it. He is a magician.
Magic is the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc. When you actually make fish and bread out of thin air, that's called a miracle. So no, He's not a magician; He's the Lord.
The Bible was never meant to be taken as a serious history book all the way through. A work of literature mixed with history, sure, but not one with complete historical accuracy. Please tell me people outside of the bible that talked about Jesus Christ, the famed savior of the human race.
Actually it was. You're on mark in that it does have symbolism and literary writings in. However the Bible was always intended to be a historical record. The entire book of Genesis is basically the genealogy of Adam to Joseph. Exodus, freedom from Egypt. Leviticus, the laws of the Hebrews. Numbers, the growth and creation of the Jewish armies. Deuteronomy, the sermons and death of Moses. Joshua, the expansion of Israel and conquering of its enemies. Judges, the filling of leadership roles. And it goes on and on. The entirety of the Bible, save for some exemptions, is intended to portray the history of man, especially the nation of Israel and the family tree of Adam.

As for historical recognition of Christ, the Lord-

  • The eyewitnesses that willingly endured torture and death at the hands of the Romans for refusing to retract their testimony of the resurrection
  • The Apostle Matthew
  • Mark the Evangelist
  • Apostle Simon Peter
  • The Apostle Paul, then Saul of Tarsus
  • The companion of the Apostle Paul, Luke
  • The Apostle John
  • The Apostle James
  • The court historian for Emperor Vespasian, Flavius Josephus
  • The first-century Roman historian, Tacitus
  • The historian, Thallus
  • Julius Africanus
  • Clement, elder of Rome
  • Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger
  • Emperor Trajan
  • Mara Bar-Serapion of Syria
  • The chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas
  • The second century Greek writer, Lucian
  • The bishop of Antioch, Ignatius
  • Quadratus of Athens
  • Justin Martyr
  • Saint Barnabas
That's a short list. I'm not even including the historical life and times of Christ and countless writings about him. Jesus Christ is well-documented, more so than many other well-accepted historical figures of that time.
 
Topics like this appear pretty frequently.
All I can say is, "Yes I dont believe in God and want to go to hell and suffer for eternity. Thanks for trying to help. Bye."
 
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Nothing happens when you die. You just die. You don't go to heaven or hell. You just cease living. They bury your body or burn you and that's it. People's memory of you is what keeps you alive in some ways. So, in a way, you're gone, but not TOTALLY gone.
 
That isn't free will. That is an ultimatum. You have to decide something within a certain amount of time, and the 'wrong' choice leads to punishment.
I'll give you free will in this style.


Let's go get some coffee.
You can choose whatever store you want, but if you don't choose Starbucks, I will beat you near death with a bat.

It's more like "we can go to any coffee shop, but all of them except Starbucks are selling poison." The outcome of your choices is on you, not God. He warns you, and you decide whether to listen.
 
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