Your opinion on Smogon bans, tierage, etc?

[Sagakkan]

Hi there,

You might be aware that Smogon just banned Kanghaskhan from the "OU"......after reading this I went and took a look at their other regulations and tiering system. I understand completely the idea of trying to regulate pokemon battling if there are elements in it that are disproportionately effective/ powerful. However, some of the bans seemed to be absurd to me......

Particularly context of double and especially triple battle. IMO the strategic scope of the game becomes far more intricate and stimulating in the context of triple battle. I typically play triple battle for this reason. None of the mega-evolutions, Kanghaskhan included, are anywhere near being beyond defeatable in triple battle. In addition, some of the strategies, i.e. evasion, sleeping, drizzle-swift swim can be countered much more easily in triple battle than in single battle, and without any considerable contortion of other strategic elements as Smogon's reasoning suggests.

In addition, the tiering system seems like a gross over-simplification of the game.....some of the best teams I've played have pokemon that weren't fully evolved, i.e. Clefairy and Duoblade. Many of the pokemon in the "NU" have accounted for such skillful command.

Given that, it seems to me that Smogon's rules were made only with Single Battle in mind, which presumes single battle to be the most legitimate battle format -- I think this should be reversed, since the full scope of the game's complexity seems more apparent in triple battle. In addition, they seem to have been made with the pretense that there can be (and to be competitive, one must have) a fail-safe team with the ability to counter any threat that may present itself - the reality is that the game is way too intricate for such a team to exist. One might have the resources to beat a trick room/ Spore Amoongus team but not a Mega-Garchomp......it's just how it is. No matter what strategy one has there are those with the capability to exploit weaknesses inherent to it.......

So that's my 2¢......care to share your view?

 

[Nolafus]

Well, I would just like to say that the bans Smogon place only seem like they exist for single battles because that's exactly what the bans are for. The majority of competitive battlers play single battles, and since that's the most popular option, that's the banlist Smogon is going to go after. I don't play double or triple battles, but I would imagine that the banlists would have to be completely different than single battles because they're two completely different strategies.

I think Smogon has been pretty fair in what they've been banning. I mean, people had to carry a specific Mega-Kanghaskhan counter on every team. By the way, they only banned the mega evolution. Regular Kanghaskhan is perfectly fine. The way you worded that in the first post made it sound like regular Kanghaskhan was banned too. With access to priority, Mega-Kanghaskhan became nearly impossible to revenge kill. Only a select few pokemon could do it, which means you had to do everything in your power to keep them alive. It's ability basically gave Kanghaskhan a choice band without being locked into one move and with the ability to break substitutes and sturdy. The only ban I don't completely agree with is Mega-Gengar's. However, I can understand why it was banned, so I'm not complaining.

In other words, I agree with Smogon on most of the bans.

 

[Ársa]

Particularly context of double and especially triple battle. IMO the strategic scope of the game becomes far more intricate and stimulating in the context of triple battle. I typically play triple battle for this reason. None of the mega-evolutions, Kanghaskhan included, are anywhere near being beyond defeatable in triple battle. In addition, some of the strategies, i.e. evasion, sleeping, drizzle-swift swim can be countered much more easily in triple battle than in single battle, and without any considerable contortion of other strategic elements as Smogon's reasoning suggests.

In addition, the tiering system seems like a gross over-simplification of the game.....some of the best teams I've played have pokemon that weren't fully evolved, i.e. Clefairy and Duoblade. Many of the pokemon in the "NU" have accounted for such skillful command.

Given that, it seems to me that Smogon's rules were made only with Single Battle in mind, which presumes single battle to be the most legitimate battle format -- I think this should be reversed, since the full scope of the game's complexity seems more apparent in triple battle. In addition, they seem to have been made with the pretense that there can be (and to be competitive, one must have) a fail-safe team with the ability to counter any threat that may present itself - the reality is that the game is way too intricate for such a team to exist. One might have the resources to beat a trick room/ Spore Amoongus team but not a Mega-Garchomp......it's just how it is. No matter what strategy one has there are those with the capability to exploit weaknesses inherent to it.......

So that's my 2¢......care to share your view?

You must understand. While you may prefer Triple Battles, there are very few people that play competitively who mirror your sentiment. Single battles are the only TRUE battling style, in the sense that singles is what has been played continuously since RBY. In-game, 49/50 matches that you play are singles. You challenge the E4 and win according to a singles gametype.

Now, VGC - which is the officially sanctioned championship held by the pokemon company - stand that doubles is their preferred format of play. For this reason, Smogon has specifically started working on VGC competitive analysis (that have been running iirc since the 2010 season) for competitively viable pokemon.

Smogon is NOT the be-all-end-all of pokemon, competitive or otherwise. And they certainly don't claim to be. What Smogon does is provide a ruleset with which people can choose to abide by that plays outside the regular archetype provided by the Pokemon Company and in-game formats. This ruleset has been crafted through years of trial-and-error by simple fans with the sole goal of creating the most competitive format possible. This is not to say that Smogon's rules are superior to VGC rules or vice-versa, they are simply two different ways of competitively playing the same game.

As for your qualms regarding tiering, I think a lot of people need to realise that just because a pokemon is listed in NU or RU, that does not mean that they cannot be used in other tiers. The Smogon tiering system is built so that there can be vastly different playstyles.

Ubers is a ban tier. What this means, is that any pokemon deemed to be too powerful or gamebreaking for regular play is moved to this tier. Most pokemon found in this tier are also banned for official VGC sanctioned events. These are generally pokemon whose BST (Base Stat Total) is significantly higher than the majority of the metagame, and would undoubtedly outclass most other pokemon in the role that they can provide. This limits team creativity and would create a stagnant metagame.

Overused is the most commonly played tier, thanks in-most because any pokemon not in Ubers is available for use. Those pokemon listed specifically in the OU tier are done so according to a number of factors. Most importantly:

1. The pokemon's usage according to Pokemon Showdown statistics is considered high across the board (i.e. 'overused')
2. The pokemon is not solely outclassed by another pokemon for the roles it is able to perform in the metagame

For instance, a pokemon like Infernape was originally an OU staple in Generation 4, because of its great movepool coupled with a solid offensive typing and the attacking and speed stats to pull off physical, special, and mixed sets. However, with the introduction of DW abilities, Blaziken - a pokemon that was previously tiered in UU for the sole purpose that it was outclassed by Infernape in all roles - gained the much vaunted Speed Boost ability. This remedied Blaziken's mediocre speed stat, and all of a sudden it was Infernape who was considered outclassed by Blaziken. Hence, the swap was made. This process of elimination trickles down through the tiers.

These tiers are not created so that people are told they must use JUST THESE POKEMON when they play competitively; ostensibly they are created so that players who choose to want to use their favourite pokemon Delibird *cough* can do so in a competitive environment where Articuno doesn't outclass it in ever single facet of the game.

This tiering essentially makes the game more competitive by supplying more formats with which players can choose to compete.

Now in saying that, I happen to disagree with a number of Smogon's most recent bans - Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gengar - however at the end end of the day the pros far outweigh the cons. The decisions that are made by Smogon and its members (of which I and many fellow PC Battle Center members are a part) aren't simple decisions. Topics are created and opinion is weighed on by all sides. These people take their pokemon seriously! Not everyone is going to agree on these bans, however if the majority of the competitive community has come together and decided that these pokemon are too powerful and overcentralising of the OU metagame, then even though I disagree, I am happy with their decision.

Your last paragraph doesn't make much sense. The very definition of competitive is to be "as good as or better than others of a comparable nature." There is never going to be a fail safe team. It is impossible by design, with limiting factors including the sheer plethora of available pokemon, the RNG providing critical hits and max / min damage rolls, status.. etc. However if players are to be competitive while playing competitive pokemon according to a competitive ruleset created by a competitive pokemon fanbase, then this necessitates being able to actively counter the most common threats that a team is likely to come up against. As such, if you want to use your favourite pokemon Delibird in a competitive environment, then there is no problem with that. However this severely limits how competitive your team can be in the face of opposing threats like Tyranitar and Aegislash, while being completely outclassed in its own role by a number of other pokemon (Articuno has better stats across the board as an Ice/Flying type, while Frosslass is able to better utilize Destiny Bond / Spikes. Avalugg is a better Ice-type Rapid Spinner also)

I think I've covered it all.

 

[Nah]

Slayr and Arsa said it very well, but I'll give you a very short version of what they said: few people give a **** about triple battles, and Smogon spends a lot of time and energy trying to make the metagame as balanced as posible. Don't like it? Then play with your friends, in VGC, or in Battle Spot.

 

[champagnepapi]

As others have implied, Single Battles are the most prominent metagame because it has been the definition of what a "Pokemon Battle is" since the dawn of the series. When a bunch of fanatics started playing online in the GBC days with irc bots to carry out their battles, there were no double, triple, rotation, etc battles. Even when Double Battles came out in Gen 3, Single Battles were still more prominent IN THE GAMES THEMSELVES, it had become established to battle in a 6v6 singles format by the time the first simulators came out.

Also if the best you're facing in the triples tier are some NFEs [although I do see Doublade being somewhat viable] then you might run into trouble if competitive pokemon's best Pokemon minds were to play triples. Pokemon are evaluated in the hands of a good player when being considered for bans on Smogon. A top smogon tournament player could easily outplay someone who is new to the game, being able to mitigate an OP Pokemon like Xerneas if his opponent had it. At the same time, the Xerneas player would have a distinct advantage if the player commanding it was a talented player himself, maybe not being able to tear through the team completely [as we're talking in terms of talented players here], but giving enough push to likely win him the match unless he really messes up.

Soon every player would want the advantage that comes with an OP Pokemon and put it on their team. Not only are these players winning easier because they have a certain Pokemon, but it leads to overall staleness in the metagame because, not only does nearly every team have this Pokemon on it, they also have Pokemon dedicated to attempting to stop it. You might find yourself supporting a ban of a Pokemon if the Triples tier was overrun with such a Pokemon and shift in strategy centered around that Pokemon. Really, bans are just to make things more enjoyable, and many of Smogon's tiering heads are pretty conservative in wanting to ban things. It's not fun to be the superior player and lose because your opponent has a broken Pokemon with them, nor is it fun to see such a Pokemon in every battle and having to prepare for IT rather than the metagame as a whole because you risk being uncompetitive if you don't choose to do so.

 

[SnowpointQuincy]

I'm starting to hate battling on Wi-Fi. Because their are no tiers, fewer rules.

Eviolite Chansey who can't be harmed on either side - THEN using Minimize so you can't even hit it in the first place.

The Sleep and Evasion Clause Make the game better.

Every pokemon with a weakness to Flying can be OHKOed by TalonFlame, and it gets to move first no matter what.

I would love to run Hawlucha, but no mater how fast my Hawlucha is, your TalonFlame gets to move first with a Super-Effective Base 180 Brave Bird.

Teirs allow TF abusers to fave fun in OU where plenty of counters are availible. And Hawlucha fans can breath a sigh of relief in UU.

 

[Sagakkan]

You must understand. While you may prefer Triple Battles, there are very few people that play competitively who mirror your sentiment. Single battles are the only TRUE battling style, in the sense that singles is what has been played continuously since RBY. In-game, 49/50 matches that you play are singles. You challenge the E4 and win according to a singles gametype.

I really think it's silly to say that singles are the 'only true battling style', on the grounds that the RPG is played in that format. Only one opponent in the whole game even has a full team - most opponents are extremely underpowered. Furthermore, as I've said (but you seemed to ignore), there are a lot of moves and strategies that are completely absent from singles (many abilities and moves are borderline useless), such that the game becomes more complex and stimulating in doubles or triples. IMO singles is a simplistic and juvenile format.

I was well aware of the nature of the Smogon tiers when I wrote the OP - for some reason you felt the need to explain it. To explain my view further, it's not that I think bans are a bad idea - but that they ban the wrong pokemon and stigmatize pokemon that are over-powered in singles but hardly so in doubles or triples. I also think it's a bad idea to allow any legendary pokemon or pokemon that can't be bred. It seems apparent to me that most legendary pokemon were not made for competitive purposes, but rather to satisfy gamefreak's market base, a demographic that is considerably younger than most competitive battlers, and ususally harbors an attraction to the power-ranger/ digimon aesthetic and display of overwhelming might that legendary pokemon represent. To me, legendary pokemon, whether they are designated to the Ubers tier or not, have a very tacky design that suggests that commercial incentive was particularly significant in their creation.

My last paragraph made all the sense in the world if you read it correctly - it was saying exactly what you explained (that there is no perfect team) - yet some of the bans, which are made under the pretense that you need to implement one of only several obscure strategies or pokemon to beat the banned ones - suggest that anything that could disturb an otherwise highly competitive and balanced team ought to be banned. IMO players should make their team knowing that they run a risk no matter what they choose.

 

[thomas0comer]

Some pokemon, like Mega Gengar, can be incredibly unbalancing. Giving a pokemon Perish Song AND a trapping ability is already lethal enough, but giving it the speed and attacking power to kill half the things in the game before Perish Song even happens is incredibly annoying. It's not that I can't handle it, or that I think it's an invalid tactic, it's that I don't want to have to devote a slot on my team to doing so every single time because if I don't I lose one or more of my team every single match.
Mega Kangaskhan is even more absurd. It gets through Substitute and around Sturdy and Focus Sashes. Power-Up Punch hits twice, raising attack each time. It's effectively a 60 power fighting move with a built in swords dance. Khan can use Giga Impact and hit for an effective 225 power attack- 337 with STAB- which only takes one recharge turn. If that's not your taste, it can use Earthquake- an effectively 150 power ground move. In two turns it can double its attack and get a strong hit off, then finish half the game off with an attack that has nearly unparalleled power. And what if you send in a Ghost? It sucker punches when you try to hit it, hitting you with an effective 120 power super effective move. If you try to status it? It can just use substitute and your Thunder Wave or WilloWisp will fail. Next turn it hits you with Sucker Punch when you try to attack, and you don't even do damage because you are dead. Feel free to try to perish song it with M-Gengar. even if you land the attack, surprise! It quakes you and you die, Khan switches out and returns to sweep later.
You can send in M-Lucario or a fighting choice scarfer like Mienshao at the same time Khan appears. You outspeed it and hit it with Close Combat or Aura Sphere or Focus Blast or High Jump Kick or whatever. If you're lucky it'll go down in one turn. If not, enjoy dying.
Your best option is to burn it and then switch to Skarmory, who can hopefully weather the hits without sturdy, and whirlwind it out to clear its boosts. When it comes back, Skarmory's rocky helmet (which thankfully activates twice), burn, and entry hazards will stack up. Hopefully rest will keep you alive until it dies.
But wait! Khan also has access to Seismic Toss, Wish, Fake Out, and Knock Off. In addition to the absurd strength that can kill most anything after a few power up punches, it can also **** with your team by getting off a double Seismic Toss (seismic toss does full damage both times, yay!), a crazy powerful Fake Out, and a Knock Off that, when boosted, is powerful enough to knock the target off with the items more often than not. Rocky helmet? What rocky helmet? Note that Knock Off removes the item on the second hit, so it'll still activate rocky helmet twice, but both hits get the boost.
Basically: if your team does not have a Skarmory or Bronzong with support, Lucario, or a powerful fighting scarfer, you're screwed. If it wasn't banned, EVERYBODY would use one on their team. It's not that it's impossible to counter it, it's that always having to do so would make the game stop being enjoyable. It's not just M-Khan, it's all the other banned mons too. Actual competition would be replaced with a metagame where everybody always uses a select few things that are literally overpowered, as in they are numerically and strategically better than everything but them. While I usually disagree with the idea of tiers in a game, if anything needs them, Pokemon does.

 

[Azire]

I think some of it is stupid. Can't use certain Abilities together on a team? Snow Cloak is banned completely. You ever wonder why Hail was used so little? Smogon absolutely destroyed the tools GF gave it to be competitive. Don't like evasion? What about skills to combat it? Oh it's just too hard to play against evasion!! Ban it!! I want to OHKO after SR in 12 turns!! Honestly stop building your team with Focus Blast, Hydro Pump, etc.

People like easy. I like a challenge. Mostly why I played Hail. Rain teams were the most popular. You want actual diversity? Rain should have been banned. 80% MINIMUM of the teams I played against were Rain often with maybe one Pokémon difference.

Smogon is mostly a popularity contest, as the tiers are named. I prefer Wifi battling. I haven't even seen a Kangaskhan there. People use weird stuff by Smogon standards and you win some and lose some. It's true diversity that let's you see random stuff. A lot of fun.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I personally think Thundurus should be banned. He still has an incredibly annoying Prankster Thunder Wave, which can stop a lot of sweepers, and Taunt, which shuts down stall and other defensive pokemon and is deadly when used in combination with Nasty Plot. Even without Prankster, that base 111 Speed and 115/125 offenses are wonderful for an all-out offensive attacker, with moves such as Thunderbolt, HP Ice (yes, it's still good), Focus Blast, Superpower, Grass Knot etc.

Even though Thundurus lost his rain and some moves he used in Gen 5 got nerfed, I don't think that's enough to make it OU worthy.

 

[Nolafus]

IMO singles is a simplistic and juvenile format.

Are we seriously going to try to prove that one format is better than the other? Seriously? I realize you were just expressing your opinion, but this is more for everybody before a fight breaks out or something. Each format has it's own advantages and disadvantages over the other. Saying one is better than the other is like saying apples are better than oranges. There are strategies that work in one format that are absolute crap in others and it's completely wrong to me to say that one format is juvenile all because there are less pokemon out on the field at the same time.

Sure, things might get a little complicated on the side of which pokemon should be paired up together, but you don't have to think about getting entry hazards up or switching as often because from what I know from my limited doubles experience is that entry hazards aren't the greatest idea and that there are far fewer switches going on. Sure, in singles you don't have to think about pokemon pairs, but all of a sudden you have to think about how you're getting entry hazards up, clearing the way for this pokemon, and determining whether or not you should sacrifice this pokemon to get the free switch-in. The various meta games are completely different that take a different set of skills to play, so let's not go around and say that one is better than the other, okay? But, this is terribly off topic, so I'm going to end this here and get back on track.

Like I said before, I think Smogon has been pretty fair so far. I still don't quite agree with Mega-Gengar, but I never used it, so I can't really complain. If it's a pokemon I would like to see go to ubers, it would have to be Genesect. I can't switch into it because I don't know what attack it's going to be using, or if it's going to use U-turn and switch into a counter for my counter. But, this is more of an annoyance to me and I don't think Genesect is broken, so I also think it should stay in OU.

I think last gen they went overboard with the bans. There might be a couple more bans this gen, but that may be it. Hopefully Smogon won't try to get rid of every powerful pokemon like last gen.

 

[Nah]

I think some of it is stupid. Can't use certain Abilities together on a team? Snow Cloak is banned completely. You ever wonder why Hail was used so little? Smogon absolutely destroyed the tools GF gave it to be competitive. Don't like evasion? What about skills to combat it? Oh it's just too hard to play against evasion!! Ban it!! I want to OHKO after SR in 12 turns!! Honestly stop building your team with Focus Blast, Hydro Pump, etc.

People like easy. I like a challenge. Mostly why I played Hail. Rain teams were the most popular. You want actual diversity? Rain should have been banned. 80% MINIMUM of the teams I played against were Rain often with maybe one Pokémon difference.

You Howmander's identical twin brother or something?

I want to point a couple of things out. Hail was rarely used because Hail offered no bounses to Pokemon other than activating Hail-related abilities and making Blizzard 100% accurate. Rain, Sun, and Sandstorm all give several bonuses to Pokemon, making them far more useful than hail. That, and Hail teams are often dependent on Ice types, who blow defensively. It has little to do with the banning of Snow Cloak.

Rain teams were super common last gen because rain, IMO, was borderline broken. They aren't so common anymore.

 

[Bonbalon]

Single battle, Double battle, Triple battle, Rotation, they all have different strategies and are almost different games in and of themselves. What works on one format may not (or probably won't) work on others.

Smogon's tier list is basically a breakdown of Pokemon based on strength in Single Battle. I personally like their ban on evasion moves, because, seriously, a wall with double team and a recovery move is just broken. I'm looking at you, Umbreon....

 

[CelticsPhan]

As a regular at /vp/, I tend to dislike Smogon's tight grip on the Pokemon metagame, as if they legitimately run Pokemon. Their heavy restriction on the game has led to many thinking Smogon is "no fun". However, Smogon's bans have been great in restoring balance, and there would be a very unfair metagame without Smogon's bans.

I was very pleased with the semi-recent OU bans of Mega Blaziken, Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan. Each of these Pokemon impacted the game so much that one had to keep at least one counter on their team for these or else they would lose. In Smogon's own words, these Pokemon "greatly limited the amount of choice" people had because they were so common and so dominant.

Game Freak has almost no restrictions on their metagame, so Smogon attempts to fill that void with tiers/balances/bans. Their tier system is almost foolproof, and is regularly updated to accomodate for Pokemon that are ruling over the meta. To everyone who hates Smogon: would you like to play Arceus, Lugia, Giratina, Kyogre, Rayquaza and Mewtwo every game instead of using regular Pokemon?

Also, I can't wait for the Gen 6 UU tier to develop.