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4 in custody after mentally disabled young man tied up, tortured on Facebook Live (Graphic Content)

Klippy

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    The thing is, I don't really see that as much of an anti-white sentiment as much as a humiliation thing for the man involved, "**** white people" isn't really the same sort of thing as if another ethnicity was swapped out

    Oh, I know, I should've made it clearer that I wasn't using it seriously

    "Fuck white people" is no different than saying "fuck black people" or "fuck Hispanics" or "fuck [insert a race or ethnicity]". It's especially absurd to suggest that when they were cutting his flesh from his head and slicing his arms as they shouted "fuck white people". I mean wtf.

    You almost sound like an apologist for the racist elements of this case. Dismissing it as if it's anything other than racism and hatred. His disability makes it even worse by itself.
     
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    Why is it worse to attack someone with a disability than it is to attack someone without? Even as a disabled person myself I don't understand why this is worse because of his disability. It would have been equally awful no matter why they did it or who they did it to.
     

    Klippy

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    Why is it worse to attack someone with a disability than it is to attack someone without? Even as a disabled person myself I don't understand why this is worse because of his disability. It would have been equally awful no matter why they did it or who they did it to.

    Generally seen as worse because people with disabilities are viewed as more innocent by default. Lack the same social cues, etc.

    This kid, in particular, viewed one of his kidnappers as a friend and was lured into a fake sleepover. I saw his Facebook before his family took it down, but he was severely bullied already and teased about his looks/behavior. I imagine he was thrilled to have a friend and the confusion of being attacked and tortured by his "friend" and others makes the trickery all the worse.
     
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    Generally seen as worse because people with disabilities are viewed as more innocent by default. Lack the same social cues, etc.

    This kid, in particular, viewed one of his kidnappers as a friend and was lured into a fake sleepover. I saw his Facebook before his family took it down, but he was severely bullied already and teased about his looks/behavior. I imagine he was thrilled to have a friend and the confusion of being attacked and tortured by his "friend" and others makes the trickery all the worse.

    Fair point.
    Although I'd argue it's the manipulation that makes this worse, not that it's inherently worse because the victim is disabled. I'm weird though xD
     

    Klippy

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    Fair point.
    Although I'd argue it's the manipulation that makes this worse, not that it's inherently worse because the victim is disabled. I'm weird though xD

    I think it goes hand-in-hand in this case. They knew he was disabled, purposefully manipulated him, and then felt evil enough to torture him AND livestream it to make it go "viral". It fit their agenda in hating white people, since the poor kid's white as well.

    Every element makes it worse than just the crime alone. It was premeditated, planned, and a conspiracy to boot.
     
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    I think it goes hand-in-hand in this case. They knew he was disabled, purposefully manipulated him, and then felt evil enough to torture him AND livestream it to make it go "viral". It fit their agenda in hating white people, since the poor kid's white as well.

    Every element makes it worse than just the crime alone. It was premeditated, planned, and a conspiracy to boot.

    I'm still not sure I can personally run with that. But that does seem a pretty fair assessment of the situation.
     

    Somewhere_

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    I think there was absolutely an element of racial discrimination, although above all I think this was ableism. They knew him, they lured him out and they took advantage of his handicap. If it was purely motivated by race i think they'd of targeted a random white person.

    Its easier to target someone with specific mental handicaps. I have many friends with mental disabilities and they function perfectly fine and are actually very smart, but they dont have the victim's mental handicap. Anyways, in the video he clearly never knew exactly what was going on and good not process what was occurring. And as Goku pointed, he was lured into the car, maybe even happily.

    So it was not ableism. It was primarily racial discrimination.
     

    Hands

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    Its easier to target someone with specific mental handicaps. I have many friends with mental disabilities and they function perfectly fine and are actually very smart, but they dont have the victim's mental handicap. Anyways, in the video he clearly never knew exactly what was going on and good not process what was occurring. And as Goku pointed, he was lured into the car, maybe even happily.

    So it was not ableism. It was primarily racial discrimination.

    He knew one of the assailants. He was deliberately picked out because of his handicap. It's ableism.
     
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    Hate crime is just prejudice-motivated crime. And it looks like the crime was motivated by prejudice, judging by the racially-charged comments that were made in the video. I don't think there's any controversy that it's a hate crime.

    The big question for me is if there will be reprisal attacks against blacks, similar to how the assassination of white police officers was done in retaliation to the killing of unarmed black men by police.
     

    Somewhere_

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    He knew one of the assailants. He was deliberately picked out because of his handicap. It's ableism.

    Then explain the "fuck white people" and making him scream "i love black people." Im sorry, but you are trying to write them off, but it doesnt make sense otherwise. And considering its within the context of Donald Trump, lets not pretend this wasnt primarily about racism.

    Just because he knew the assailant does not mean its ableism. The fact that he had a mental disability made him easier to target relative to the other white people in the school. Stop making up excuses.
     

    Hands

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    Then explain the "**** white people" and making him scream "i love black people." Im sorry, but you are trying to write them off, but it doesnt make sense otherwise. And considering its within the context of Donald Trump, lets not pretend this wasnt primarily about racism.

    Just because he knew the assailant does not mean its ableism. The fact that he had a mental disability made him easier to target relative to the other white people in the school. Stop making up excuses.

    I don't understand how highlighting that he was specifically chosen because of his handicap writes anything off. I've already said racial discrimination played a part, at least in the abuse itself, but he was absolutely taken because of his handicap.

    Four of them, an agenda to go viral via torturing someone, stolen van and a location and you think that his handicap played a minor, if any, part in his abuse? You don't think they'd of overpowered some old, able but frail Trump supporter? This was premeditated and he was the intended victim from the start.

    And here's the thing you're either desperately ignoring or just don't understand, if the victim was a POC with the same challenges and the assailants were white, it would still absolutely be ableism because his or her disability would of still been the key reason they were chosen over somebody else.
     

    Somewhere_

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    I don't understand how highlighting that he was specifically chosen because of his handicap writes anything off. I've already said racial discrimination played a part, at least in the abuse itself, but he was absolutely taken because of his handicap.

    Four of them, an agenda to go viral via torturing someone, stolen van and a location and you think that his handicap played a minor, if any, part in his abuse? You don't think they'd of overpowered some old, able but frail Trump supporter? This was premeditated and he was the intended victim from the start.

    And here's the thing you're either desperately ignoring or just don't understand, if the victim was a POC with the same challenges and the assailants were white, it would still absolutely be ableism because his or her disability would of still been the key reason they were chosen over somebody else.

    Being taken because of his handicap is not ableism. It is practical at their POV. This entire incident was racially motivated.

    No, it was a major part in his abuse because it helped enable the abuse. They knew him and sure, it was premeditated. this is zero evidence for ableism.

    Im saying its racially motivated because of the words the victim had to scream, what the assailants screamed, and the context of the incident. And the words were congruent with the assailant's race.

    If they were white torturing a black mentally handicapped person, I would say it was racially motivated if they screamed the same things (but in reverse obviously, replacing black for white and trump for obama). If you just make the assailants white and not screaming the things they did, you are comparing apples to oranges.
     

    Hands

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    Being taken because of his handicap is not ableism. It is practical at their POV. This entire incident was racially motivated.

    No, it was a major part in his abuse because it helped enable the abuse. They knew him and sure, it was premeditated. this is zero evidence for ableism.

    Im saying its racially motivated because of the words the victim had to scream, what the assailants screamed, and the context of the incident. And the words were congruent with the assailant's race.

    If they were white torturing a black mentally handicapped person, I would say it was racially motivated if they screamed the same things (but in reverse obviously, replacing black for white and trump for obama). If you just make the assailants white and not screaming the things they did, you are comparing apples to oranges.

    It would still be ableism whatever they shouted.
     
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    I don't understand how highlighting that he was specifically chosen because of his handicap writes anything off. I've already said racial discrimination played a part, at least in the abuse itself, but he was absolutely taken because of his handicap.

    Four of them, an agenda to go viral via torturing someone, stolen van and a location and you think that his handicap played a minor, if any, part in his abuse? You don't think they'd of overpowered some old, able but frail Trump supporter? This was premeditated and he was the intended victim from the start.

    And here's the thing you're either desperately ignoring or just don't understand, if the victim was a POC with the same challenges and the assailants were white, it would still absolutely be ableism because his or her disability would of still been the key reason they were chosen over somebody else.
    do you have any concrete proof of your theory that he was taken because of his handicap?
     

    Hands

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    do you have any concrete proof of your theory that he was taken because of his handicap?

    Let me put it this way. One of the group's members befriended him, exploited his trust, convinced him to with them and then they spent 24 hours dehumanising him.

    If it was simply because he was white, why him? There was four of them, a stolen van and a secure location. They could of taken anyone, but they spent time grooming a man they knew to be disabled. It's not rocket science, hell, it isn't even remotely hard to understand that.
     
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    Let me put it this way. One of the group's members befriended him, exploited his trust, convinced him to with them and then they spent 24 hours dehumanising him.

    If it was simply because he was white, why him? There was four of them, a stolen van and a secure location. They could of taken anyone, but they spent time grooming a man they knew to be disabled. It's not rocket science, hell, it isn't even remotely hard to understand that.
    Your theory does hold some water, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true, but I don't think that is conclusive enough to definitely conclude that ableism played into this incident. It'd be more likely, as you say, for disabled people to be targeted for crimes like this, but who's to say a "normal" white person wouldn't hang around with other black people and go to sleep over at their houses?

    If more information comes out in the coming days more concretely suggesting that he was kidnapped partly because he was disabled (unless I have a wrong interpretation of this incident), then I'll change my stance. Until then it's just a theory, though a believable one at that.

    What is more clear, though, is that this incident was politically and racially motivated (to varying degrees), and nobody can deny this in their right mind.
     

    Hands

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    Your theory does hold some water, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true, but I don't think that is conclusive enough to definitely conclude that ableism played into this incident. It'd be more likely, as you say, for disabled people to be targeted for crimes like this, but who's to say a "normal" white person wouldn't hang around with other black people and go to sleep over at their houses?

    If more information comes out in the coming days more concretely suggesting that he was kidnapped partly because he was disabled (unless I have a wrong interpretation of this incident), then I'll change my stance. Until then it's just a theory, though a believable one at that.

    What is more clear, though, is that this incident was politically and racially motivated (to varying degrees), and nobody can deny this in their right mind.

    I'm sorry I got snappy, I'm just so tired of people online downplaying the nature of this. I have a quite close friend with Downs and I am forever seeing people lure him over to tables at pubs to rag on him with their friends and this horrific incident reeks of the same attitudes from these four absolute monsters.

    Politics and race clearly played a big part, I've never denied that, I just want people to understand that these cowards deliberately targeted a disabled man because his disability made him a target to them
     
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    I'm sorry I got snappy, I'm just so tired of people online downplaying the nature of this. I have a quite close friend with Downs and I am forever seeing people lure him over to tables at pubs to rag on him with their friends and this horrific incident reeks of the same attitudes from these four absolute monsters.

    Politics and race clearly played a big part, I've never denied that, I just want people to understand that these cowards deliberately targeted a disabled man because his disability made him a target to them
    I never suggested (or meant to anyways) you denied that. After all, it could be combination of those factors.

    Sorry about your friend, though. Humans can be miserable sometimes.
     
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    What they did is a hate crime regardless of whether they were primarily motivated by racial or ableist feelings. Either (or both) is enough for that label. We probably can't know everything that went into their plan just yet though.

    "**** white people" is no different than saying "**** black people" or "**** Hispanics" or "**** [insert a race or ethnicity]". It's especially absurd to suggest that when they were cutting his flesh from his head and slicing his arms as they shouted "**** white people". I mean wtf.

    On an individual basis no, there isn't a difference. It's prejudice regardless of what group you're insulting. But in the context of a country like America where white people generally have the advantage (in many ways) over non-white and blacks specifically, the impact of a white person insulting (or attacking) a black person and a black person insulting (or attacking) a white person are not necessarily going to be equal. The legal system, for instance, tends to give harsher punishments to black defendants compared to white defendants who are convicted of the same crimes.

    Given the specific things the attackers said here it will be all but impossible for them to argue in court that there was not a racial element. There's not usually direct quotes from attackers so the motivations have to be inferred elsewhere. This is why I'm worried about the long-term ramifications of this, that it will be seen as the "normal" mindset of black people so that any time a black person commits a crime in the future and there is a white victim it will be viewed as a specifically racially based attack (or theft, or whatever). Specifically I worry that people in law enforcement/the legal system/government will have this view and it will bias their judgment, leading to disproportionate punishments. I don't worry so much about that happening in cases of white people committing crimes against black people though because law enforcement/the legal system/government is majority white in almost every case and they won't assume a racial prejudice by default when it comes to white criminals (because then they'd have to assume that they, too, have prejudice inside them).

    So, like, the difference is one of an individual level versus a systemic level. It's equally bad to insult or attack someone based on race (regardless of the races involved) but the system will treat them differently.

    Why is it worse to attack someone with a disability than it is to attack someone without? Even as a disabled person myself I don't understand why this is worse because of his disability. It would have been equally awful no matter why they did it or who they did it to.

    Part of it is the assumption that disabled people can't protect or take care of themselves (which can be true in some cases) and we generally feel that attacking someone who can't fight back or escape or otherwise has no recourse is extra bad and/or shows some kind of elevated cruelty or evil in the mind of the attacker who chose, of all people, to attack someone who was not able to defend themselves. That's my take anyway. I think it's something that's pretty ingrained in people, but I'm no expert in psychology.

    So when the crime is committed against someone and there is no personal gain to be had (or the gain is incidental, or would have been greater had they chosen a different victim) is feels like they were targeted for the above reason. That, or because of hatred.

    Which is the other part, that there is a level of discomfort and prejudice and sometimes even hatred for disabled people in the minds of many. Like other irrational hatreds, they see disabled people as somehow being a factor or cause in their own problems and want to take revenge for it or otherwise lash out. I'm sure we can all find examples of things people will say about disabilities without any trouble so no need to get into examples.
     

    Somewhere_

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    It would still be ableism whatever they shouted.

    They shouted "fuck white people" and "fuck Donald Trump." Unless you want to make the case that Donald Trump is mentally challenged and that white people in the aggregate have greater mental disabilities per person than every other race, the shouting is not ableist by any means. It is clearly racially driven. Not to mention, they also made the victim yell "I love black people." Ya, this totally sounds ableist to me.
     
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