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4 in custody after mentally disabled young man tied up, tortured on Facebook Live (Graphic Content)

Hands

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    They shouted "**** white people" and "**** Donald Trump." Unless you want to make the case that Donald Trump is mentally challenged and that white people in the aggregate have greater mental disabilities per person than every other race, the shouting is not ableist by any means. It is clearly racially driven. Not to mention, they also made the victim yell "I love black people." Ya, this totally sounds ableist to me.

    Are you genuinely ignoring over half this case just to back your own agenda or? THEY KNEW HIM. They didn't randomly grab a guy who happened to be disabled. They knew and groomed him and lured him to the stolen van and they picked him of all people BECAUSE HE HAS A MENTAL DISABILITY THAT THEY KNEW THEY COULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF
     

    Nah

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    They shouted "fuck white people" and "fuck Donald Trump." Unless you want to make the case that Donald Trump is mentally challenged and that white people in the aggregate have greater mental disabilities per person than every other race, the shouting is not ableist by any means. It is clearly racially driven. Not to mention, they also made the victim yell "I love black people." Ya, this totally sounds ableist to me.
    idk why it can't be both. Sure, one of the motivations was very clear, but that doesn't necessarily mean there weren't others as well.

    It's still a pretty fucked up thing to do regardless of motive really.

    On an individual basis no, there isn't a difference. It's prejudice regardless of what group you're insulting. But in the context of a country like America where white people generally have the advantage (in many ways) over non-white and blacks specifically, the impact of a white person insulting (or attacking) a black person and a black person insulting (or attacking) a white person are not necessarily going to be equal. The legal system, for instance, tends to give harsher punishments to black defendants compared to white defendants who are convicted of the same crimes.

    Given the specific things the attackers said here it will be all but impossible for them to argue in court that there was not a racial element. There's not usually direct quotes from attackers so the motivations have to be inferred elsewhere. This is why I'm worried about the long-term ramifications of this, that it will be seen as the "normal" mindset of black people so that any time a black person commits a crime in the future and there is a white victim it will be viewed as a specifically racially based attack (or theft, or whatever). Specifically I worry that people in law enforcement/the legal system/government will have this view and it will bias their judgment, leading to disproportionate punishments. I don't worry so much about that happening in cases of white people committing crimes against black people though because law enforcement/the legal system/government is majority white in almost every case and they won't assume a racial prejudice by default when it comes to white criminals (because then they'd have to assume that they, too, have prejudice inside them).

    So, like, the difference is one of an individual level versus a systemic level. It's equally bad to insult or attack someone based on race (regardless of the races involved) but the system will treat them differently.
    While I don't really disagree with what you're saying here in general, Klippy's response to AlienCommander's post was more about the fact that AC was basically saying that there was no racial motivation to this particular incident at all when there clearly was.

    Like, how does one look at this and say that it was not at least slightly motivated by hatred of white people?
     

    Somewhere_

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  • Are you genuinely ignoring over half this case just to back your own agenda or? THEY KNEW HIM. They didn't randomly grab a guy who happened to be disabled. They knew and groomed him and lured him to the stolen van and they picked him of all people BECAUSE HE HAS A MENTAL DISABILITY THAT THEY KNEW THEY COULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF
    Your argument is a straw man:

    I just said his mental illness was a major part of the case. They exploited his mental illness and relationship with him. This enabled their attack. I have never claimed that they targeted him randomly.
     
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    While I don't really disagree with what you're saying here in general, Klippy's response to AlienCommander's post was more about the fact that AC was basically saying that there was no racial motivation to this particular incident at all when there clearly was.

    Like, how does one look at this and say that it was not at least slightly motivated by hatred of white people?

    Rather than saying there was no racial motiviation, i'm saying that this is downplaying the man's disability and playing up what seem to be fairly minor racial elements?

    Getting a white person who's mentally disabled to curse his own ethnicity is just as much a humiliation tactic as it could be a "wow these guys sure are racist to white people, huh" thing, although considering "**** white people" is a thing that's not as hateful as the reverse, I don't want to get in over my head and start debating what makes something racist or not but "man white people are wild/weird/ect" isn't an uncommon thing you'll see non-white people saying so it's colloquial nature, and that of variants on it, aren't the same as vitriolic comments going the other way
     

    Somewhere_

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  • Rather than saying there was no racial motiviation, i'm saying that this is downplaying the man's disability and playing up what seem to be fairly minor racial elements?

    Getting a white person who's mentally disabled to curse his own ethnicity is just as much a humiliation tactic as it could be a "wow these guys sure are racist to white people, huh" thing, although considering "**** white people" is a thing that's not as hateful as the reverse, I don't want to get in over my head and start debating what makes something racist or not but "man white people are wild/weird/ect" isn't an uncommon thing you'll see non-white people saying so it's colloquial nature, and that of variants on it, aren't the same as vitriolic comments going the other way

    How is "fuck white people" objectively not as hateful as the reverse?
     
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    How is "**** white people" objectively not as hateful as the reverse?

    I realize i've downplayed too much in my post, but the thing is that it's use as a non-hateful colloquialism makes it objectively not as hateful as the reverse? Obviously it can still be used as a hateful thing, but isn't as as much on the whole because of it's other use

    It's very difficult to verbalise without coming off in a way I don't intend to, but in the same way jokes at the expense of white people- which is also difficult to give examples of because it only works if you've actually seen any. The... semi-meme, of white people being unable to handle spices in foods isn't racist at all and it's a funny joke. I don't really have anything that works as an exact equivalent, and it's difficult to equate, but most jokes about black people in the same sort of way are racist, like ape jokes or "thug jokes" or whatever
     

    Somewhere_

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  • I realize i've downplayed too much in my post, but the thing is that it's use as a non-hateful colloquialism makes it objectively not as hateful as the reverse? Obviously it can still be used as a hateful thing, but isn't as as much on the whole because of it's other use

    What would be an example of yelling "fuck white people" in a non-hateful manor? And what is "fuck white people" a colloquialism for? Is there a more eloquent way of saying it or something?

    It's very difficult to verbalise without coming off in a way I don't intend to, but in the same way jokes at the expense of white people- which is also difficult to give examples of because it only works if you've actually seen any. The... semi-meme, of white people being unable to handle spices in foods isn't racist at all and it's a funny joke. I don't really have anything that works as an exact equivalent, and it's difficult to equate, but most jokes about black people in the same sort of way are racist, like ape jokes or "thug jokes" or whatever

    Why aren't spicy food memes racist? How are you drawing this line?

    If ape jokes are racist, than surely jokes that jab at white people's higher propensity for aging undesirably relative to black people is also racist. That is, white people wrinkle more than black people.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    Your argument is a straw man:

    I just said his mental illness was a major part of the case. They exploited his mental illness and relationship with him. This enabled their attack. I have never claimed that they targeted him randomly.

    Then what are you disagreeing with me over? His disability is why he was chosen over someone else, that's ableism
     

    Trainer 766

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    Just read this on Reddit. Makes me absolutely sick. I wouldn't even dare to watch the video. These four are inhuman.

    Torturing and mentally dehumanizing a disabled guy and somehow they have the guts to put it on FB, LIVE! They couldn't get any more fucked up. What's worse is the fact that they made him yell "Fuck Trump/White People" is not even taken seriously. Hell, look at the CNN.

    Like I said, these four bastards made the poor boy shouted "Fuck Trump and White People". The CNN went all like "The four people didn't say anything to actually give an indication that they are commiting a hate crime." That fact shows us that CNN is beyond moronic.

    The thing that truly disgusts me is that these four took advantage of a mentally disabled guy, who viewied the fish bait as someone he could trust. Then the next thing happened, he was cut repeatedly, forced to drink toilet water, gagged, tied up, and so on(not in order). It's just messed up. This is one of the worst things humans had done. I have never felt like throwing up over news like this my entire life.

    Why are these four getting defended? They took advantage of a disabled guy, then tortured him continuously because they were racially promoted to do so. What the fuck? I'm pretty sure if the case goes like 4 white men torturing a black guy, it would have turned out differently, even though both are considered racist. This case is just like throwing justice out the window.
     
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  • I realize i've downplayed too much in my post, but the thing is that it's use as a non-hateful colloquialism makes it objectively not as hateful as the reverse? Obviously it can still be used as a hateful thing, but isn't as as much on the whole because of it's other use

    It's very difficult to verbalise without coming off in a way I don't intend to, but in the same way jokes at the expense of white people- which is also difficult to give examples of because it only works if you've actually seen any. The... semi-meme, of white people being unable to handle spices in foods isn't racist at all and it's a funny joke. I don't really have anything that works as an exact equivalent, and it's difficult to equate, but most jokes about black people in the same sort of way are racist, like ape jokes or "thug jokes" or whatever

    Yes, people say "fuck white people" sarcastically more often than "fuck black people", but I really don't think the people who messed up with the disabled guy were being sarcastic about it. Like, if you use a term that is sometimes used non-seriously in a very serious kind of manner, then I think it's safe to say it's just as racist as if you used another term. Context = torturing an mentally disabled man of the race you're hating on = racist.
     
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    Somewhere_

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  • Then what are you disagreeing with me over? His disability is why he was chosen over someone else, that's ableism

    Im saying the attack was primarily racism and that his disability enabled the attack because its more practical to commit a crime against a person with a mental disability than a person that they didnt know and without a mental disability.
     
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  • Adding on to Badsheep: the primary political message was one of racism, and they took advantage of a disabled person to do that.
     
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  • To be fair, if they didn't want to be misconstrued as racists they shouldn't have tortured someone. I'm all for justice being fair and impartial, and if the attackers didn't really mean the racial things they said I wouldn't want them punished for that element of their crime, but they tortured someone for no reason other than hatred so if they get branded as racists in the process I'm not gonna feel sorry for them, just for the man they attacked and the rest of us in the country who'll have to deal with the ****storm they've caused us.
     

    starseed galaxy auticorn

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  • As someone with mental disabilities herself, this makes me sick as well. I mean, what gives these people a right to torment someone like this? Sure, it's not right do that to anyone... disabled or not. However, the fact that this man is disabled makes it even worse. We have to deal with enough in society as it is... and this really just... I can't even... omg. What has this world come to?
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    Im saying the attack was primarily racism and that his disability enabled the attack because its more practical to commit a crime against a person with a mental disability than a person that they didnt know and without a mental disability.

    I'm not saying their intent for the crime wasn't racist. I'm saying picking him as the target over another white person because of his disability and the way they groomed him was ableism. You can be both racist and ableist at the same time.

    I don't understand your stance on this. It's as if, for you, this has to be just racism and the heinous way they groomed a handicapped man, abused his trust and disability and lured him into essentially a hostage situation is less important than them screaming racial messages. I have never denied the racial motivations of these cowards (although you've accused me of making excuses for them?) but you seem hell bent on the erasure of the victim's disability and the significant part it played in him being targeted over anyone else. It isn't unusual for racists to pick a disabled person based on their disability because they can rationalize it that society will see a disabled person as lesser anyway.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ball-coat-hanger-rape-teammate-john-rk-howard

    For instance, the above story is absolutely racism, it's also absolutely ableism, but it is clear his race was the deciding factor in his abuse, and his disability was what decided the level of abuse they thought they could get away with. The Chicago incident is far more ableist because their goal was to kidnap a white person and out of any given targets, they groomed and lured one they knew was disabled. In both cases, the disability of the victim almost certainly led to the public nature of the abuse (for Howard, he felt he could get away with it on a bus, for the Chicago four they felt they could livestream the torture) however in only one case was the victim specifically chosen because he was disabled. Of course, the Chicago Four will rightly face prison, whereas, with a grown number of young white athletes who've committed some level of sexual assault in America, Howard will be walking away from this relatively free.
     

    Mewtwolover

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  • But in the context of a country like America where white people generally have the advantage (in many ways) over non-white and blacks specifically
    Ever heard about Affirmative Action? I recommend to check it out.

    "**** white people" is no different than saying "**** black people" or "**** Hispanics" or "**** [insert a race or ethnicity]".
    So much this, it was a disgusting hate crime.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    Ever heard about Affirmative Action?.

    Ever heard of Segregation? How about slavery? Maybe you've heard about the ghettos? Or Clinton's prison culture? Maybe you've heard of Jimmie Lee Jackson? Or the Selma march where unarmed, peaceful black Americans had to face off against a heavily armed and aggressive police and armed klansmen? But no, you're right, white people do not have it easier because a few companies put measures in place to ensure that their employment procedure does not allow for racist selection. All of the struggles leading up to now and those continuing today are nothing compared to the horrific challenge white people have to face due to the evils of affirmative action.
     

    CnifeKat

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  • Even just reading a description of what happened makes me gag. Humanity... Please...
     
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