Black History Month - Racism In General

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...-dash-black-history-month-20160120-story.html

I went "OMG This is me" when I read this.

"We have to make up our minds," Dash said. "Either we want segregation or integration. And if we don't want segregation, then we need to get rid of channels like BET and the BET Awards and the Image Awards where you're only awarded if you're black. If it were the other way around, we would be up in arms. It's a double standard."

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That is completely true. Not all, but a fair amount of black people play both sides of the board sometimes.

In a world with no segregation, there can be no barriers. The title "Black" or "African American" cannot be used. While the latter's meaning is different, it's connotation has definitely changed over the years.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmfirsts.html

The fact that this is a page on a website, is terrible.

I'm half Korean and I was joking with my friends at lunch the other day, the group being mostly black, that we should have an Asian History Month. They all actually agreed.

In a world without racism, Barack Obama is not the first black president. He is the 44th president.

Another thing, is take music for instance. Specifically rap. Most famous rappers are black and throw the N word around like a fool. Then look at guys like Eminem, Macklemore, Machine Gun Kelly, or any other white rapper/singer using that word? Never. It's frowned upon and they would be attacked if they did.


What are your guys' thoughts on it? The majority of people I've discussed it with in person have kind of agreed, but I don't think understood completely. I dunno if it was because I was unclear or if they just weren't intelligent enough to process it that quickly.

I love whoever gave that quote.

I think there's a lot of double standards as far as racism is concerned and there's this strange sort of belief some people seem to hold that only white people are racist and only towards black people - which is in itself racist.

Obviously this is generalisation, but in general that kind of discriminatory point of view is just as harmful to our society as a white doorman not letting a black man through. I think it's time we as a society shed our foolish and narrow-minded perspectives on things like racial and gender discrimination and begun working towards equality - true equality where your racism is just as bad as mine and where neither is acceptable.

Hoo boy.

First off, the quote creates a false dichotomy. This isn't a matter of segregation VS integration. What people like the above fail to acknowledge is that we have different experiences of the world based on factors we can't necessarily control, such as our age, gender, sexuality, religion, socioeconomic status, nationality, and yes, race. Those things affect what community we belong to, what history and traditions we have, what opportunities we receive, and how the world treats us. We're all different, and to ignore that is simply ridiculous. Everyone wants to be accepted by society, but we can still be accepted while acknowledging our differences. Wouldn't you agree?

Second, the world is a biased place. You are treated better based on how much money you make, how old you are, how well you follows norms based on your gender or sexuality, and the colour of your skin. This is an undeniable fact; countless studies have shown that if you're male or white, you are more likely to be called back for a job interview. You're more likely to be treated well by the police. You're more likely to be cast as the star of a film (or get any job in the film industry, really). There are real studies to back up this information, and they prove that difference in treatment and the privilege that some people have are very real and have a huge impact on our lives.

So thirdly, as shown by the last example, there is a systematic issue where black people simply are not represented in film. This problem isn't just with the Oscars - it's because there's a the lack of black screenwriters and directors and editors in the industry, and that's hardly random (see the first article). But because black people are missing at every stage of film production, and because the Academy is 94% white and their median age is 62, the few black people who are in the business are more likely to get overlooked during the voting process.

So yeah, people of colour have the right to be pissed off by the Oscars, and are perfectly within their rights to host their own awards where they can be acknowledged for the hard work they do. Same goes for Black History Month, because again, black people and their accomplishments are mostly ignored, and this is a way to make sure they're acknowledged. Anyone who thinks that this is somehow hypocritical has either done zero research or is willfully ignorant about racism and discrimination.

Please read the articles I linked to before trying to respond. :)

~Psychic

It seems like African Americans get the special treatment, whereas other races who had suffered a fair share of discrimination as them such as Jews and the Japanese are neglected. Heck, us Mexican Americans got our own dedicated month in March, but even that gets overshadowed by Black History Month. Then you have stuff like Black Lives Matter, which is basically a modern-day version of Malcolm X's group, and the whole "Oscars So White" backlash simply because there are zero African Americans nominated, let alone the fact that actors get nominated based on their performances and not by their race, or else that'll create unfair biasm.

In what way are you comparing Black Lives Matter to Malcolm X and his movement? I was under the impression that Malcolm X (until the last two years or so of his life) called for arming blacks in order to fight oppression while BLM is an unarmed group of protesters who wish to raise awareness for the very real problem of disproportionate police brutality that targets unarmed minorities.

Fennekin210 said:

In what way are you comparing Black Lives Matter to Malcolm X and his movement? I was under the impression that Malcolm X (until the last two years or so of his life) called for arming blacks in order to fight oppression while BLM is an unarmed group of protesters who wish to raise awareness for the very real problem of disproportionate police brutality that targets unarmed minorities.

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The movement itself has shown its violent side as provided by this particular video discussed by TL;DR, which draws parallel to what Malcolm X use to do. There's also a counter movement called "All Lives Matter," which solely believes everyone, no matter what their race is, deserves equal respect.

gimmepie said:

I think there's a lot of double standards as far as racism is concerned and there's this strange sort of belief some people seem to hold that only white people are racist and only towards black people - which is in itself racist.

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The belief that only white people are racist is part of "White guilt", it isn't strange if you know the things behind it.

Pinkie-Dawn said:

It seems like African Americans get the special treatment, whereas other races who had suffered a fair share of discrimination as them such as Jews and the Japanese are neglected.

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I wouldn't say that Jews are neglected nowadays.

Mewtwolover said:

The belief that only white people are racist is part of "White guilt", it isn't strange if you know the things behind it.

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The belief that the belief that only white people are racist isn't strange is pretty ignorant of all the kinds of racisms perpetrated by all kinds of cultures.

Kanzler said:

The belief that the belief that only white people are racist isn't strange is pretty ignorant of all the kinds of racisms perpetrated by all kinds of cultures.

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I'd like to reply to Psychic but I don't have the time to make a big post atm.

But like I stated in the OP, I am friends with a lot of black people. My "lunch group" consists of 5 black people, 1 Mexican, 1 Asian, and 3 white people. As sad as it is, we are often racist to our own race! It's so weird, but I guess that's part of the big problem.

Pinkie-Dawn said:

It seems like African Americans get the special treatment, whereas other races who had suffered a fair share of discrimination as them such as Jews and the Japanese are neglected. Heck, us Mexican Americans got our own dedicated month in March, but even that gets overshadowed by Black History Month. Then you have stuff like Black Lives Matter, which is basically a modern-day version of Malcolm X's group, and the whole "Oscars So White" backlash simply because there are zero African Americans nominated, let alone the fact that actors get nominated based on their performances and not by their race, or else that'll create unfair biasm.

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While I do think the voters do take performances in consideration, at the same time Psychic already mentioned how the academy has the majority of voters white middle aged men, so there is already some bias going on. I think I hear how the academy is trying to go for younger voters, though more diversity would be nice. So yeah, I can understand why stuff like the BET awards existed.

Pinkie-Dawn said:

It seems like African Americans get the special treatment, whereas other races who had suffered a fair share of discrimination as them such as Jews and the Japanese are neglected. Heck, us Mexican Americans got our own dedicated month in March, but even that gets overshadowed by Black History Month..

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First of all, we can all acknowledge that many groups of people have been discriminated against throughout history, because that's how the world works. However right here, right now, this problem is especially egregious for and disproportionately affects black people. I'm Jewish, and I will never have to worry about not getting a job interview, being mistreated by the police, or being less likely to see people like me in the film industry, just based on being Jewish. These are three problems that specifically affect black people, which I provided evidence for in my previous post.

Second, how exactly are black people getting special treatment? You said yourself that Mexican Americans get their own month, and there are Jewish groups that focus on the accomplishments of Jews. Minorities specifically set up these kinds of opportunities because they tend to be overlooked by the majority, and in some cases have a history of being denied opportunities by the majority (example: Jews were banned from joining clubs and organizations in the US in the early 1900's, so we made our own). Nowadays, Jews aren't discriminated against the same way, but other minorities, including black people, still are. It might not be legal, but the statistics prove that it still happens in many ways today.

Pinkie-Dawn said:

Then you have stuff like Black Lives Matter, which is basically a modern-day version of Malcolm X's group, and the whole "Oscars So White" backlash simply because there are zero African Americans nominated, let alone the fact that actors get nominated based on their performances and not by their race, or else that'll create unfair biasm

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For the record, nobody part of the Black Lives Matter movement has said that "only black lives matter." If you honestly don't know why the movement is called that, then you need to open your eyes to the amount of police brutality that has disproportionately affected black people. The disregard for black lives led to black people speaking up and saying their lives have just as much worth as any other. But instead of listening to them and trying to change racism and police brutality, people are instead moaning about how "why are you only talking about black people?" It contributes nothing to the conversation, and comes across as ignorant.

You're assuming that the lack of black Oscar nominations is due simply to the fact that, based on your logic, the best actors and filmmakers all just so happen to be white. As if the fact that this happens every single year is a coincidence. Did you even glance at the articles I posted about how black people tend to get hired for less jobs and are overall represented less in Hollywood, and that literally almost every single member of the Academy is white? (And that they're mostly old, and old people tend to be more racist.) To deny that any of this has an affect on the Oscars is willful ignorance.

Check10 said:

I'd like to reply to Psychic but I don't have the time to make a big post atm.

But like I stated in the OP, I am friends with a lot of black people. My "lunch group" consists of 5 black people, 1 Mexican, 1 Asian, and 3 white people. As sad as it is, we are often racist to our own race! It's so weird, but I guess that's part of the big problem.

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"I have black friends" doesn't mean anything or give you a free pass, and it's a weird thing for you to bring up.

I can only guess at what you mean about being "racist about our own race," but here's the thing - it's way more socially acceptable to be critical or self-deprecating about the group you belong to. That's because it is incredibly easy to point our fingers at people who are different from us - that's how bullying works! But to be critical of people like ourselves is harder and requires more critical thought and willingness to look at ourselves. The things we observe about ourselves can also be a lot more insightful and honest than the things we say about others. These are some of the many reasons why comedians are perfectly within their right to be self-deprecating about their own race or in-group, moreso than outsiders.

~Psychic

What people fail to realize is that things like BET are tailor made for minority populaces in this so called "melting pot" because mainstream media panders to the majority. This isn't racism per say it just comes down to numbers. You can't blame movie studios, game designers etc. for creating content for the majority because in corporate america we are one nation under the almighty dollar. BET may be mainstream but that's only because an outlier came out of left field; white people enjoy consuming black content. To me this isn't a surprising fact but in old institutions like those voting to hand out Oscars are somewhat ignorant to the concept.

Number inequality is a false perception. In this I mean say as Bay Alexison said if they group were 30% black 70% white people would cry out injustice. This is a false claim as statistically that's a very generous split in actual American populace. Believe it or not programs like affirmative action cause more injustices because, while probably necessary in it's earlier days does little more now than to quantify someone by race first. It provides many companies (who also enjoy other subsidies like corporate welfare) a means of making money on someone elses skin tone while still mistreating that person in work environment.

White guilt is a thought process bred into people to further divide the people as whole. A friend and I had a very interesting conversation about racism in early colonial america. I won't go into much detail but essentially the thought process came to the conclusion that racism was brought here as a means of community control. Very often is the case those who rule use a blueprint; a sort of magna carta on how to keep the people under control. In human history this blueprint is not often perfect but in America has proven quite effective. White guilt is the theory that white people now should feel bad now for things their ancestors may or may not have participated in 300 years. Pretty crazy when you stop to think about the implications but none the less it keeps itself relevant today. I personally don't feel the need to apologize for something I personally never had a part in, however the thought process then evolves into "well you must not care about now either". Again a crazy idea to me personally as I don't understand the correlation. I live today and because of this sole fact everything around me concerns me. I truly believe that white guilt is another form of racist institutionalization in America. The architect has made his designs, and we continue to build to this day.

This post may seem somewhat conspiracy theory esc but it's my own opinion in a laundry list of them on this topic.

We are all human beings. Too much has been made of race on both sides for far too long. It's sad.

tbqh i'm not sure exactly how BET has benefited the social standing of being black.

Kanzler said:

tbqh i'm not sure exactly how BET has benefited the social standing of being black.

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If anything things like this just further the divide between races. You know what we need, inclusive awards where anybody can win!

Oh wait...

Kanzler said:

tbqh i'm not sure exactly how BET has benefited the social standing of being black.

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I'm looking on the BET website and nowhere do I see any mention of BET existing in order to "benefit the social standing of being black," so I'm not sure what your point is. i addressed why these types of groups exist in my above post.

gimmepie said:

If anything things like this just further the divide between races. You know what we need, inclusive awards where anybody can win!

Oh wait...

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Please prove how bringing attention to racism "divides the races," because so far it has been a good thing,even if some people find it upsetting. I would like to see proof.

It seems a lot of people in this thread still think the Academy is a completely fair and unbiased group. To be honest, I thought the same thing, but a lot of information has come out about the voting process, as well as some really crazy stories about what members voted for and why. Having read the following, I can't believe in that fantasy anymore, and it's important that we acknowledge how flawed this system is.

While we like to think of the Oscars as a pure meritocracy, members of the Academy can be as capricious and flawed as any other human being. People nominate within their own field, meaning that this year's all-white slate of acting nominees can be traced back to the Academy's predominantly white pool of actors. In the next stage, all 6,000-odd Academy members vote via ballot in every category, regardless of whether they have seen the movies in question or know anything about each field.

Last year, this included a voter who selected Leviathan for Best Foreign Language Feature because of the "cool-looking carcass" on the posters—without actually having watched it or any of the other nominees. Another said that she didn't even watch 12 Years A Slave because she didn't want "more terrible stuff to keep in my head," and as a result she chose other films for 2014's Best Picture.

In the Best Animated Movie category last year, one voter selected Big Hero 6 after describing two other nominees as irrelevant because they were "obscure freakin' Chinese fuckin' things that nobody ever freakin' saw." One of these films was Irish and the other was Japanese, and both received rave reviews from mainstream critics.

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Source: http://www.dailydot.com/entertainment/oscars-diversity-racism-sexism-academy-awards/

Once again, I emphasize that the Academy is 94% white, 76% male, and their median age is 62. If you honestly think this group of people is 100% unbiased, even after reading these stories about how willfully clueless they are, then I don't know what to tell you.

~Psychic

My issue with the black only movie awards show is that it's a band-aid fix that doesn't really tackle the issues....which is pretty typical of this country. If you want to fix the bias in the Oscars and other media awards shows you kinda have to, y'know, change the Oscars and stuff. It's asinine that, like is shown in the above post, people can vote on a movie without actually watching the fucking movie (like seriously this is some nationally prestigious awards show and they let people do that shit?). But making a black only awards show isn't going to get them to fix that.

Part of the problem will simply be fixed in time though. Like has been cited a few times already, the board of voters (and the government) is basically just a bunch of old white dudes. People who came from a time where it was legally ok to be racist and stuff. I would like to think that once they all finally retire/die off and our generation replaces them things'll be better.

Psychic said:

I'm looking on the BET website and nowhere do I see any mention of BET existing in order to "benefit the social standing of being black," so I'm not sure what your point is. i addressed why these types of groups exist in my above post.

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I wasn't responding to you in particular. This thread is about the appropriateness of black-only spaces and how it wouldn't be appropriate to have white-only spaces. Now if BET is showing programming that only reinforces negative stereotypes of blacks, then that would negate at least some of the benefit of it being a black-only space so I think my point is pretty relevant.

I mean, as an Asian person, I'd be very embarrassed to have an AET where all Asian men speak with Japanese accents, are portrayed to be cheap, and wear Fu-Manchu mustaches. Just saying.

Well, first off, no one should ever use Stacey Dash (or anyone who's a part of FOX News, for that matter) as a reference for anything. The woman is clueless.

As a black man myself, I don't even like BET and I've had plenty of problems with that network. But I do recognize the necessity for spaces dedicated to celebrating black achievements, in entertainment or whatever else – because black people would rarely be recognized otherwise. Despite the impact of black people on U.S. popular culture (particularly music), most of it is still geared towards primarily white audiences, featuring white actors, actresses, musicians, etc.

Black history is the same. White American history frequently attempts to erase, downplay, and/or sanitize black history and the impact that black people have made on the country. This is how you have a vocal segment of the popular refusing to believe that that the U.S. Civil War was fought over slavery. Or how the vast majority of the things Martin Luther King Jr. actually said, believed, and fought for have been ignored in favor of the "I Have A Dream" speech. This how people like Malcolm X or organizations like the Black Panther Party are generally ignored and/or mischaracterized.

In a country without racism, channels like BET would be unnecessary. Martin Luther King day would be unnecessary. Black History Month would be unnecessary. Obama wouldn't have to be seen as a "black" President. But, the thing is, this isn't a country without racism.

And as far as the N-Word goes, the thing non-black people tend to forget is… context matters. There's a world of difference in hearing the word from a black person as opposed to a non-black person, despite whatever your intention is. And that's not even taking into consideration the fact that black people themselves have different views on whether or not we should even use the word in the first place.

None of this is really all that difficult to understand, OP.

Pinkie-Dawn said:

It seems like African Americans get the special treatment, whereas other races who had suffered a fair share of discrimination as them such as Jews and the Japanese are neglected. Heck, us Mexican Americans got our own dedicated month in March, but even that gets overshadowed by Black History Month. Then you have stuff like Black Lives Matter, which is basically a modern-day version of Malcolm X's group, and the whole "Oscars So White" backlash simply because there are zero African Americans nominated, let alone the fact that actors get nominated based on their performances and not by their race, or else that'll create unfair biasm.

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I'd have loved to see some of that "special treatment" come into play when Tamir Rice's murderer got off for killing a 12-year old boy for the crime of… playing with a toy gun in an open-carry state. I'd loved to have seen some of that special treatment come into play when, despite black people taking center stage in two highly-acclaimed and successful films (Straight Outta Compton, Creed), the only recognition either film got was for the white people who worked on them.

Black people don't get special treatment. Black people have to march, demonstrate, agitate to the point of exhaustion, and risk their lives just to get a fraction of the treatment that white people take for granted. Things like BET, "Black Lives Matter" (and, please, tell me what group Malcolm X had and how the hell they're similar to BLM), affirmative action, and #OscarsSoWhite only exist because black people still don't even have equal treatment in the country – let alone "special treatment".

gimmepie said:

If anything things like this just further the divide between races. You know what we need, inclusive awards where anybody can win!

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And the Oscars clearly aren't that.

Black people aren't responsible for that divide, and aren't responsible for it. Black people just try to live with it. If nothing else, at least understand that.

For anyone who still needs evidence of how black people automatically have less opportunity in the acting world, here it is from the horse's mouth in a speech from the eloquent Idris Elba. For an example of other people of colour struggling to be represented in the media, check out the episode "Indians on TV" in Aziz Ansari's Master of None.

Nah said:

My issue with the black only movie awards show is that it's a band-aid fix that doesn't really tackle the issues....which is pretty typical of this country. If you want to fix the bias in the Oscars and other media awards shows you kinda have to, y'know, change the Oscars and stuff. It's asinine that, like is shown in the above post, people can vote on a movie without actually watching the ****ing movie (like seriously this is some nationally prestigious awards show and they let people do that ****?). But making a black only awards show isn't going to get them to fix that.

Part of the problem will simply be fixed in time though. Like has been cited a few times already, the board of voters (and the government) is basically just a bunch of old white dudes. People who came from a time where it was legally ok to be racist and stuff. I would like to think that once they all finally retire/die off and our generation replaces them things'll be better.

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Hm, I personally don't think black-only awards shows are an attempt to fix racism - rather, I think they exist by necessity. There's so much talent out there that simply doesn't get recognized as a result of systematic racism, and I consider these awards shows to be an opportunity to make sure those people still get acknowledged. It's kind of like an indie awards show - the Oscars don't really cover films made by smaller companies, which is why there are festivals and competitions that specifically focus on the indie scene. It's because without those events by indie filmmakers for indie filmmakers, their work won't really get acknowledged.

I really hope you're right about this issue of the Academy being mostly old/white/male. Unfortunately, nepotism seems to be a huge issue in the film industry (and it is in many professions), and since people are more likely to be friends and mentors to people who are already like them...they old white guys might just be replaced with slightly younger white guys. Again, I hope that's not the case, but that's another reason why I think we should be attentive to race and actively seek to change up the status quo instead of hoping it gets better.

Kanzler said:

I wasn't responding to you in particular. This thread is about the appropriateness of black-only spaces and how it wouldn't be appropriate to have white-only spaces. Now if BET is showing programming that only reinforces negative stereotypes of blacks, then that would negate at least some of the benefit of it being a black-only space so I think my point is pretty relevant.

I mean, as an Asian person, I'd be very embarrassed to have an AET where all Asian men speak with Japanese accents, are portrayed to be cheap, and wear Fu-Manchu mustaches. Just saying.

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I really don't know enough about BET to comment about its content. I don't think I entirely understand your point, so I'd appreciate it if you clarified this. I know you weren't responding to me, but you seem to be questioning why spaces reserved for minorities exist, which is something I addressed previously. See also Lizardo's excellent post.


~Psychic