bobandbill

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Lillie’s mystery seems to have deepened – what is her connection with UB-01, Lusamine and Gladion?

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Article by Charlie Brown.

Charlie Brown

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Interested to hear your thoughts on this guys!

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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Interested to hear your thoughts on this guys!
I think that she's related to them. As for UB-01 and Lillie's relation... Maybe something happened to her to turn her into that thing, or maybe it was based off of her. There's also the possiblity that Lillie herself is the one controlling UB-01 from afar.
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Hikamaru

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You know, I was watching a video on YouTube by JasonPlaysPokemon where he digs into this theory and he brings up Bianca, the character from Pokemon Heroes who is actually Latias in disguise. He believes Sun & Moon's story with Lillie might take a route very similar to what happened with Bianca in Pokemon Heroes.

Interesting to note that this article picks up that Gladion and Lusamine's names come from the same genus of flowers that Lillie's name is based on. No wonder they all have the same hair and eye color that is suggesting they are all related.
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blue

gucci

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That would certainly explain the mystery that has been surrounding her. I can totally see the connection to UB-01, but the other two.. not so much just yet. I'm sure we'll find out soon enough how/if she is related to Lusamine and Gladion.

Adventure

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Entermaid

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I want to see Lusamine's UB!

Uh, this is what my thoughts are on the two organizations and what the dualistic perspectives they represent (like sun/moon, black/white, ect.). From there I am guessing Lillie will be the synthesis between the two dueling ideas, like "eclipse" or "gray". Basically, we as the protagonist will likely disagree with team skull and the Aether foundation like team magma and team aqua and follow Lillie's lead.

Team "skull" represents "mortality". They value subjective truth of the world. Basically we as an individual should do as we please. By following our individual passions we as mortals are fulfilled. This is a Roman Hedonistic traditions, think the Roman Empire. We do not want to be enslaved by claims of "moral Truth". (Also think Nietzsche and nihilism.)

The Aether foundation represents divinity, thus "aether" which means "heavenly". They value objective truth of the world. Basically, we need to understand True knowledge and act in accordance with that knowledge to have a fulfilled "soul" rather than mortal body. This is a Greek Stoic tradition...we do not want to be enslaved by our Earthly passions. Faba even states that their island is a "veritable paradise", which means true paradise. Again, this utopian speech indicates that there are universal truths and Good, and we must obey them to preserve our "souls".

My theory is that both Greek and Roman traditions of objectivity and subjectivity troubles Lillie. Lillie may understand that we cannot be like team skull and do as we please through tyrannizing others. At the same time, we cannot simply control people and force them to adopt an ideology of what is good. BOTH ARE COERCIVE. Lillie may not believe in objective Truth, but rather, may think that we can form a consensus of human truth (as well as other living creatures) by establishing shared truth. We can only share truth through mutual-respect and understanding, essentially egalitarian values. The only truth we can established is intersubjective. We can only establish this form of truth through agreement and unity as to what is good and bad - basically this philosophy values world peace through reason giving and undistorted communication among free individuals.

In summary:
Skull "mortal" =pure subjective knowledge
Aether "divine" =pure objective knowledge
Lillie "humanity"= intersubjective knowledge

To be clear, truth is considered an authority. When truth is relativistic, it means there is no meaning. Thus why the Greeks wanted to establish objectivism to escape the meaninglessness of hedonistic values, in which its a meaningless free for all, with no authority. Authority in the last example of intersubjectivity is a postmodern idea that all humans can share authority through agreement of right and wrong reasons. Essentially, if we can all have a "golden rule" orientation, we in effect rule ourselves and each other at the same time, and thus are in many ways we are both free as individuals and authoritative as to what is right and wrong.

We in a sense become more "godly" when we as individuals provide the authority to rule each other while at the same time, liberate each other, rather to have one person, a group, or Gods rule through their conception of Truth.
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Z25

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I don't see her being UB 02, but I think there's definitely a connection to Aether. Not sure about Gladieon though. Him having an artificial mon could be a hint though. My guess is there's a missing story element that we will have to play to find out. I don't think the answer is as obvious as it may seem, but who knows.

Attribule

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Well, we know that Lusamine and Gladion are related. As pointed out, they seem to be polar opposites in design and personality, with Lillie appearing to be a mix between the two, at least physically.

I think something that supports Lillie being UB-01 is that aspect. UB-01, in a certain sense, represents purity and corruption simultaneously. Why?

The creation of artificial life, throughout human history, has been considered the single greatest crime a person can commit. A crime that spits in the face of nature and God. UB-01 is born of elegance and beauty (Lusamine), however its very existence is the corruption (Gladion). UB-01's human form, Lillie, would represent both Lusamine and Gladion's image, as both had a hand in creating it.

Type: Null is presumably "all" Gladion, and therefore is a blatant chimeric abomination in every way. Something to note is that Type: Null has an Arceus symbol around its neck, which further suggests a type of alchemic process in its creation, as well as UB-01's.

It's also possible that Aether and Team Skull work together through Lusamine and Gladion. Lusamine helps maintain a "pure" facade via Aether, which has the benefit of drawing in "protected" Pokemon to be used in experiments in secret. Gladion takes attention off of the foundation by working with a blatantly criminal organization, and uses money earned through their criminal acts to help fund his and Lusamine's work. This kind of information would be unknown to the "grunts", which ultimately help to maintain the illusion that the two groups are against one another, while the higher-ups, or possibly even just Lusamine and Gladion know the truth.

Karous

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Just a repost of what I wrote in another thread:

Lusamine, Gladion, and Lillie are most likely siblings. I like the fan theories going around with family estrangement, the Aether Foundation, and Ultra Beasts all being connected. Lusamine most likely initiated a bunch of unethical experimentation on humans and Pokemon to find a way to force synchro evos (like Ash-Greninja) with the Aether Foundation resulting in the Ultra Beasts - this includes using Pokemon confiscated from Team Skull for experimentation. Gladion likely left in disgust to rebel and unfortunately found an unhealthy outlet in crime. I can see Gladion becoming an anti-hero like Team Magma in Sapphire or Team Aqua in Ruby - I don't think Team Skull as a whole is going to become good, but I think Gladion individually is going to redeem himself to stop Lusamine's plot and make up with Lillie with the help of the player.

I'm a bit on the fence on whether Lillie is a failed synchro of UB-01 as the fan theory going around says, but I think she is a neutral party working for the professor because she rejected both of her elder siblings' actions. I see her playing a little sister role like Elise in Fire Emblem Fates in which she is ultimately loyal to her family but isn't committed to political squandering.
Just to add for this thread, I don't think that Team Skull as an organization is in opposition to the Aether Foundation, at least not for noble reasons. Team Skull still engages in criminal activity and are still villains, so I think that only Gladion is against Aether/Lusamine for reasons other than a simple turf war. Gladion isn't very high ranking, and thus not really in a position to influence the direction of the organization as he ranks below the admins and boss but he isn't a grunt. This supports the theory that he hasn't been in the organization for a super long time, and that he joined Team Skull after the unethical experimentation started as an act of rebellion.
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I don't know if it has been mentioned here yet, but according to the bulbapedia leaks forum the riddler has changed his twitter account's avatar to a picture of Colress. If this indicates Colress' return then I could totally see Colress being related to Lillie, Lusamine or Gladion (father?). All one big happy family, probably having something to do with Ultra Beasts.

Rivvon

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While I can totally imagine a character like Colress making a cameo of this nature due to his desire for research, I can't imagine they'd make him related to an all-new set of characters... unless he was, say, a distant relative or something along those lines. But honestly I think him appearing as just a scientist will work effectively enough, if he appears at all.

esperance

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Because UB01 is able to change it's shape(?) my first thought was that it befriended Lillie at some point in the past because she was near the lab it was made in and it wanted to look like her as a form of remembering their bond or something.
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Rivvon

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This makes sense; I don't think he'd be super huge to the plot or something, buuut Colress being a part of the Aether Foundation doooes raise more questions than it does answers, really. Mostly:
  • Assuming that the Foundation's role is true that they would want to help Pokemon and not hurt them, then what were his real reasons behind joining Team Plasma? Wasn't he also the main guy doing cruel experimentations on Kyurem?
  • If these games DO take place after B2W2, then is it also possible Colress had some sort of change of heart and joined an organization for the greater good, maybe?

It's a real head-scratcher for sure. u__u
Maybe I can help shed some light here!

"Welcome! I was asked by an acquaintance to help with his research. What I desire is to bring out the entirety in Pokémon potential! If I can accomplish that, I don't care what it takes! If it means the strength must be brought out by the interactions between Pokémon and Trainers, then so be it! If it means you have to use a merciless approach, like Team Plasma's, and force out all of the Pokémon's power, then so be it!"
The acquaintance in question is Ghetsis; this is basically explaining how Colress became the new leader of Team Plasma. Then he talks about his personal goals. Notice he says "If it means the strength must be brought out by the interactions between Pokémon and Trainers, then so be it" first. Colress's whole character is literally "If I need to be ruthless to make Pokémon powerful, then I'll be ruthless, buuuuuuuut if I need to be kind, then I'll be kind."

After you defeat him in the Plasma Frigate he comes to the realization and admits to the player:
"The reason you're so strong is that you treat your Pokémon with respect and love!"
Then you've got Ghetsis later who confirms this is the way Colress thinks:
"That blasted Colress! The fool is far too committed to pure science. This is how he repays me for making him the boss of Team Plasma? How dare he put his personal intellectual curiosity before our ultimate mission of conquering Unova!"
Admitting that Colress stops the awful experiments and such because he learned it's better to strengthen your Pokémon through kindness and respect.

So Colress's reason for joining Team Plasma was simple: he was offered access to a lab where he could study what made Pokémon stronger. That's enough for him!

So theoretically, it doesn't really matter what Aether Corp. is after; as long as they can give Colress a lab to work with, he'll take the job! And since they were able to create their own artificial island, they must have access to great technology. That surely would interest Colress, regardless of what their true intentions were.




To me the big question raised by Colress's hypothetical appearance comes from XY: it's confirmed that Colress did some travelling and studying/knew about the rocks associated with Mega Evolution. And since we know now SM take place some ambiguous amount of time after XY due to Dexio and Sina's dialog, would Colress have some exposure to Mega Evolution by now? What would that mean for Mega Evolution in SM?

Rivvon

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Okay, that makes sense! And to me, it's definitely possible that Colress would be exposed to Mega Evolution, although it raises the possibility that it might not mean anything particularly significant at all as far as S&M is concerned. Assuming Colress is indeed in the game as an NPC of some sort, the most that I can imagine is you would battle him and he would either a) have a Mega of some sort as he's researching Mega Evolutions due to his fascination of drawing Pokemon's power to their absolute limit or b) have an Alola form of a certain Pokemon, as his research now lies within how Pokemon adapt to Alola and how that relates to their inner abilities/powers (a stretch, but throwing that out there).

Of course, all of this really paints to an understandably minor role for Colress in S&M, perhaps as a passing reference to Unova to some degree, which further leads me to believe that Megas probably won't be that significant in S&M, if significant at all.
I think maybe my wording was a bit questionable; by "significant," I meant more like "there will be new Megas," not that they will be a subplot of the narrative like in XY. Like, Colress's ace is Klinklang, a Pokémon that works perfectly for him, and there's no good reason to change it because at the end of the day he's a gen 5 character who is heavily associated with Unova. But unless there are new Megas, he can't really have a Mega on his team because Mega Klinklang doesn't exist.

Then the matter of Alola forms is interesting too because he definitely could be researching them, since researching is what he does. But his only gen 1 Pokémon on his B2W2 team is Magneton, but he simultaneously uses Magnezone... And out of all the Alola forms we've seen, I don't think any fit Colress at all. I don't think any gen 7 Pokémon really fit him save for Magearna (an event legendary, so... very likely "no") and Type: Null, which is confirmed as Gladion's partner. I'd like to think it's safe to say there's a significance in it being Gladion's partner, as I can imagine Gladion is an important character due to likely being connected to Lusamine and Lillie. But if, say, Colress played a part in creating Type: Null, then he'd probably be more important to the plot, too (not like "wow the plot couldn't exist without you" important, but still pretty important). But by then I feel an "upgrade" to his team would be warranted, but again I feel it would be inappropriate to change his ace, so... new Megas confirmed, question mark question mark question mark??? (Very unsure-sounding.)

I guess I see this from a much more critical lens because Colress is one of my most favorite characters of the series, period, so if he were to appear, I'd be super happy but I'd also not want it to feel underwhelming or disappointing. I mean, he could very well keep his old team but after time has passed since B2W2/XY you kinda want to see how things have changed for the better, too, if that makes sense...?

Rivvon

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Okay, how about this perspective, instead: You don't battle him at all. Because his role is minimzied and and he encompasses being a researcher/scientist more and more, he doesn't have any real reason to battle the player aside from maybe Game Freak making him battleable anyway as a nod to Unova, but nothing else other than that. If he's going to be like, the head scientist of the Aether Foundation, it's possible that you may speak with him and he may play a small part here in there in regards to the Ultra Beasts but... this is also doubtful.
I totally get this but at that point why make him in the game at all? If he's only going to serve as a slight head nod to Unova anyways, why not just have him be mentioned by some NPC the way he was in XY? That's how I would view it, not even as a fan of the character but just in general: it would feel like such a waste if they took the time and effort to place him into the game into some role and then you can't even battle him. Like, I'm sure the people who want to see characters like Cynthia and Zinnia and Lance and whoever make cameos would like to battle them, too, right?

He could totally be a minor cameo character and you can battle him and his team is exactly the same as in B2W2, like that's totally plausible and I'm sure most people would be alright with that. It wouldn't even be a problematic thing if it were to happen. But again, as a fan of the character, I still want to hold out hope for something more.

I say doubtful, because Colress' interests and pretty much all he cares about is extremely niche (at least, in Alola): bringing out the true power and potential of Pokemon in whatever way that he can. I'm of the hopes that this would mean more megas, but I'm not too optimistic about that. The only other connection Colress would have though, in regards to anything bringing out the maximum power of Pokemon is Z-moves in particular.
I guess that would depend on how they portray Z-Moves (Mega Evolution was pushed way more as "the true potential" of Pokémon so I don't know if Z-Moves would do the same?). But this would tie into your next point, in that it's kind of weird to bring back an old character for the sake of introducing a new mechanic. I can't remember any game where that happened. Maybe they'll try it this time because they're the 20th anniversary titles, but that's about as far as I can imagine they'd stretch it.

Knowing Game Freak though, it hasn't really been done before in the past where they've brought a past character and made them particularly very relevant to the current plot (Cynthia wasn't really relevant in the plot of B/W nor B2W2 or HGSS, Caitlin gained a bit of relevancy becoming an Elite Four member in Unova, but that's separate from the plot itself), so this makes me think that, if he were to ever return, he'll probably be much more of a background character this time around.
This is exactly why I can't imagine him being related to Lusamine-Gladion-Lillie but can still see him appearing as a scientist. I think these characters being related is super important so it doesn't make sense to just throw in an older character in the mix just because he likes science (I mean, would that make Clemont related to them, too?). But as a cameo scientist, that I can see. But then, he's such a major character in his home title that such a cameo almost feels like a weird position for him to be in... It's a really conflicting topic for me.

Attribule

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Could be worth pointing out that along with Type: Null having an Arceus symbol around its neck, all three characters themselves share color schemes with Arceus -- the most similar one being Lusamine. Gladion appears to be more of the opposite of Arceus, using black as his primary color with red and white as a secondary. Red is found in Arceus's eyes, but Lusamine lacks this color.

Gladion might also represent Giratina, not Arceus. Giratina uses primarily red and black colors, and the shoulders of Gladion's hoodie might be based on the tops of Giratina's wings. Giratina can be considered the polar opposite of Arceus, similar to how Gladion appears as the polar opposite to Lusamine. Going on this, Type: Null may have come about from Gladion trying to recreate Arceus for his own corrupt ambitions.
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Do all of you remember the Demo version where Lillie had a unknown Pokemon inside her purse ?
Here is my theory ,
Lillie is not an Ultra Beast , She is a Person that hiding an Ultra Beast on her purse.
UB-01 take Lillie's shape because she is its best friend.
Lillie probably know something about Aether Foundation so she probably stole a Ultra beast and trying to protect it from Aether Foundation with the help of prof Kukai.
The True Beauty of Anime

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Seen November 13th, 2019
Posted November 15th, 2018
Kinda leaves the question on why she would befriend something that's a threat to basically everything in the Pokemon World, though.
Except , We don't know if Ultra beast are real threat !
Chances are , Aether Foundation are the real threat that might driving the ultra beast nut.
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WingsofBliss

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It's interesting to note how UB-01 isn't classified as a Pokemon at all, and that both humans and Pokemon fear it. There's also the space observatory on the Big Island, plus the games themselves and the mascot Legendaries being centered around themes of the sun and moon. I think that UB-01 could possibly be an alien. I'm not trying to sound like a quack, but that literally has crossed my mind. If Lillie and UB-01 are the same thing, and if my alien theory holds any water, that would mean Lillie and possibly Lusamine and Gladion might be aliens if they're all relatives. Which would also explain there being "multiple" Ultra Beasts. Another reason I bring up aliens is because I just can't see Game Freak making a plot that involves experimentations being done on humans that would turn them into Pokemon.

What's even more baffling is trying to figure out where Solgaleo, Lunala, the Island Guardians, Z-moves, and the Island Trials fit into this. I mention the Trials because Team Skull seems to have their goals centered around it, with Guzma it's on a personal level with Kukui. Zygarde is also an interesting case to me, because I initially thought it was primarily a post-game quest. But, according to the wording on the website, it's insinuated that you collect the Cells and Cores during your main journey. I wonder, will there be so much destruction between UB-01 and Solgaleo/Lunala that you'll have to activate Complete Zygarde?