Serious 2020 Democratic Primaries

[Hands]

The play gets jucier by the day. The more the Democrats line up to run their own little campaigns, the more Trump strolls in with a plastic straw and slurps up the cash they drop. People are feeling left behind and honestly I cannot keep track of all the Democratic runners. The mains, sure but the little people?

Trump's approval was not halted by the impeachment inquiry at all, in fact it rose by about four or five points. What's more, President Trump's campaign raised 3 million in as many hours at the start of this little impeachment picnic.

While money does not guarantee a win (it helped Hillary absolutely zero) it shows that people are willing to support President Trump regardless.

Schiff does not help the Democrats at all, and the longer this beat rolls on the closer the steam roller gets. Too divided, too disrespectful and far too black label for my tastes. Shunting efforts from actually trying to do their jobs.

Word is that you can't utter the so-called whistleblower's name on Twitter, Facebook or Youtube and come out unscathed (if you own a channel in an official capacity). Tim Poole was locked from face book for a bit and youtube privitized his videos regarding said whistleblower, a Mr. 'Allemaraic Cire'. He wasn't the only one.

Maybe the Democrats can pull a somewhat decent candidate out of a hat (Mashes the X Button furiously) that won't get torn to shreds.

The key here that I don't think people understand is that you can call President Trump anything and everything under the sun and it will. not. work. He is Teflon Don and his base, and now the center, is beginning to believe it as well. The people leading the charge against him are far too weak.

They don't need to call him names, the man is an absolute catastrophe who's dementia is getting out of hand.

 

[Neil Peart]

The play gets jucier by the day. The more the Democrats line up to run their own little campaigns, the more Trump strolls in with a plastic straw and slurps up the cash they drop. People are feeling left behind and honestly I cannot keep track of all the Democratic runners. The mains, sure but the little people?

Why yes, giving people as much choice they can get in a country where your actual choices in elections are limited to about as close to an oligarchy as you can get is so, totally awful. I remember watching an episode of The Newsroom, and a character said "our elections are the envy of the world." I read posts like yours, and just remember all of the people I talk to here in Finland and elsewhere who think the exact opposite. The only people taken seriously are those with either the most clout or, most importantly in a plutocracy, the most cash. Your insulting of the fact that many people are trying to make names for themselves in a country where they were half-assedly told "anyone can be president" since birth is more proof of how idiotic the American political system is, and we all know that lack of thought and fact-checking leads to Republican victories. Which leads me to...

Maybe the Democrats can pull a somewhat decent candidate out of a hat (Mashes the X Button furiously) that won't get torn to shreds.

Sometimes, I just want to say "I have no sympathy" in regards to people who voted for Trump and are now seeing either their jobs or their healthcare go away or balloon in price. Then, I remember that the DNC did all they could to stop the Democratic candidate who would have wiped the floor with Trump -- Bernie Sanders. There's nothing that Joe Schmoe could have done to stop that. Bernie was a scandal-free candidate running against a candidate that had scandals coming out of his ears. In the moronic circus that has become American presidential elections, sometimes, that's enough. And don't give me crap about his "socialism" being too scary for people to grasp. The people would have taken that over a man who openly bragged about being a sexual harassment machine, insults minorities and women on the regular, and hasn't an honest bone in his miserable body. The Democrats have ALWAYS had a great candidate. It's just the establishment that won't let him take what he should have had in 2016. Again, because of money.

The key here that I don't think people understand is that you can call President Trump anything and everything under the sun and it will. not. work. He is Teflon Don and his base, and now the center, is beginning to believe it as well. The people leading the charge against him are far too weak.

True, but the other thing Don has in his favor is an uneducated voter base. Statistically, people who vote Republican in the US are less educated, and it shows when you end up with people like Trump as leader of the free world. With less education comes a greater tendency to believe bullshit and blatant lies, whether they're spread by your fellow citizens on Facebook, or a million Russian bots on Twitter. Some people just don't do any sort of critical thinking, and their fervent, embarrassing jingoism combines with that to make a recipe for disaster -- for any society. And his opposition is rather toothless, but then again, anyone looks toothless when you put them up against a crazy old man who tweets seven times a second, has a rabid fanbase with a deep love for guns, and foreign friends in low places who are probably doing shit to help keep him in office. Nothing I could prove, but come on. This guy is corruption incarnate. However, if you can't look at Bernie and at least admire the fight he's STILL putting up for the working class and the marginalized, at his age with his health problems, then you're just hopeless as a human being.

There was no "blue wave" in 2018, and there will be no happy ending for Dems in 2020. The world is trending towards the intolerant right-wing, and until there's another Depression or something major, Americans will continue to vote against their interests and be of no envy to anyone in the developed world.

 

[Maedar]

The play gets jucier by the day. The more the Democrats line up to run their own little campaigns, the more Trump strolls in with a plastic straw and slurps up the cash they drop. People are feeling left behind and honestly I cannot keep track of all the Democratic runners. The mains, sure but the little people?

Yes, using Twitter to threaten a witness while said witness was actually in court answering questions regarding witness intimidation is an original and novel idea.

That was, of course, sarcasm. As far as mistakes made in legal proceedings go, I would place it slightly below Charles Manson's attempt to assault the judge at his trial.

 

[LDSman]

The play gets jucier by the day. The more the Democrats line up to run their own little campaigns, the more Trump strolls in with a plastic straw and slurps up the cash they drop. People are feeling left behind and honestly I cannot keep track of all the Democratic runners. The mains, sure but the little people?

Trump's approval was not halted by the impeachment inquiry at all, in fact it rose by about four or five points. What's more, President Trump's campaign raised 3 million in as many hours at the start of this little impeachment picnic.

That's because it just looks like a show trial at this point. The Russian thing fell through and the dems hope to drag this farce of an investigation out till the election so they can milk the "our candidate isn't facing impeachment."

While money does not guarantee a win (it helped Hillary absolutely zero) it shows that people are willing to support President Trump regardless.

She did well enough with it.

Schiff does not help the Democrats at all, and the longer this beat rolls on the closer the steam roller gets. Too divided, too disrespectful and far too black label for my tastes. Shunting efforts from actually trying to do their jobs.

Gotta appease their base and look like their trying something.

Word is that you can't utter the so-called whistleblower's name on Twitter, Facebook or Youtube and come out unscathed (if you own a channel in an official capacity). Tim Poole was locked from face book for a bit and youtube privitized his videos regarding said whistleblower, a Mr. 'Allemaraic Cire'. He wasn't the only one.

Which is incredibly stupid as his name is in the NEWS!

Maybe the Democrats can pull a somewhat decent candidate out of a hat (Mashes the X Button furiously) that won't get torn to shreds.

Very unlikely.

The key here that I don't think people understand is that you can call President Trump anything and everything under the sun and it will. not. work. He is Teflon Don and his base, and now the center, is beginning to believe it as well. The people leading the charge against him are far too weak.

Less teflon Don and more that after all the other accusations fell apart, its turned into the "Dem who cried wolf!"

They don't need to call him names, the man is an absolute catastrophe who's dementia is getting out of hand.

I disagree.

Why yes, giving people as much choice they can get in a country where your actual choices in elections are limited to about as close to an oligarchy as you can get is so, totally awful. I remember watching an episode of The Newsroom, and a character said "our elections are the envy of the world." I read posts like yours, and just remember all of the people I talk to here in Finland and elsewhere who think the exact opposite. The only people taken seriously are those with either the most clout or, most importantly in a plutocracy, the most cash. Your insulting of the fact that many people are trying to make names for themselves in a country where they were half-assedly told "anyone can be president" since birth is more proof of how idiotic the American political system is, and we all know that lack of thought and fact-checking leads to Republican victories. Which leads me to...

Everyone thinks the other groups political system is terrible.

Sometimes, I just want to say "I have no sympathy" in regards to people who voted for Trump and are now seeing either their jobs or their healthcare go away or balloon in price. Then, I remember that the DNC did all they could to stop the Democratic candidate who would have wiped the floor with Trump -- Bernie Sanders. There's nothing that Joe Schmoe could have done to stop that. Bernie was a scandal-free candidate running against a candidate that had scandals coming out of his ears. In the moronic circus that has become American presidential elections, sometimes, that's enough. And don't give me crap about his "socialism" being too scary for people to grasp. The people would have taken that over a man who openly bragged about being a sexual harassment machine, insults minorities and women on the regular, and hasn't an honest bone in his miserable body. The Democrats have ALWAYS had a great candidate. It's just the establishment that won't let him take what he should have had in 2016. Again, because of money.

There is no way that Sanders would have won. He has zero grasp of economics plus he's a socialist (redundant?). Most people know exactly were that leads and aren't interested in joining the breadlines.

True, but the other thing Don has in his favor is an uneducated voter base. Statistically, people who vote Republican in the US are less educated, and it shows when you end up with people like Trump as leader of the free world. With less education comes a greater tendency to believe bullshit and blatant lies, whether they're spread by your fellow citizens on Facebook, or a million Russian bots on Twitter. Some people just don't do any sort of critical thinking, and their fervent, embarrassing jingoism combines with that to make a recipe for disaster -- for any society. And his opposition is rather toothless, but then again, anyone looks toothless when you put them up against a crazy old man who tweets seven times a second, has a rabid fanbase with a deep love for guns, and foreign friends in low places who are probably doing shit to help keep him in office. Nothing I could prove, but come on. This guy is corruption incarnate. However, if you can't look at Bernie and at least admire the fight he's STILL putting up for the working class and the marginalized, at his age with his health problems, then you're just hopeless as a human being.

Ah yes, stereotypes, insults and conspiracy theories.

There was no "blue wave" in 2018, and there will be no happy ending for Dems in 2020. The world is trending towards the intolerant right-wing, and until there's another Depression or something major, Americans will continue to vote against their interests and be of no envy to anyone in the developed world.

I agree that the Dems won't be happy but I disagree that the world is trending towards intolerance.

 

[Sektor]

You can put down as many words and sarcastic comments you would like, but people. Do. Not. Care. They just don't. Not anymore.

If that were the case, then impeachment would have across the board approval, correct? Wrong, as it only has a 40 point approval and dropping.

Even if they somehow try to shuffle him away the senate won't vote him away. And once again, calling names does not help in the slightest.

The reason why he won in the first place is because the left for years, has always said the right is an uneducated bunch. Well, I wonder what happens when you continually talk down to a group like that? You get President Trump. So if we're playing the no sympathy game, perhaps you need to set yourself a plate and help yourself to some humble pie.

What's most remarkable is that people think they know the game, but they really do not. The playing field has changed. People do not appreciate the left's default behaviour of talking down to them any longer. Calling people uneducated (ironic, considering the debt to wage ratio of college graduates) does not work. Calling them racist does not work. Calling them bigots, sexist, misogynistic, stupid, Nazis does not work. What this tells me is that the value of these words, and the value of the one speaking them has diminished greatly.

And the stupids? Well they were smart enough evidently to drunkenly wander to their local polling boothes and punch the button that says Donald Trump so I suppose they cannot be too dumb.

One thing I do know is that the democrats need a candidate that does not huff hair, pretend to be a Native American or tax the middle class more. If you tend to disagree with that I do not know what can be done but I assure you they are ceritified losers.

 

[Maedar]

If that were the case, then impeachment would have across the board approval, correct? Wrong, as it only has a 40 point approval and dropping.

Wait, where did you get that? Here's the one I saw today:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rcent-trump-ukraine-actions-wrong/4227312002/

 

[Nah]

What any individual poll will say will vary based on who you poll and how you word the poll.

The thing with statistics is that you want as large of a sample size as possible, as the larger the sample size, the more representative it is of how the whole feels. Unfortunately, getting a huge sample size is usually not feasible, and a lot of polling organizations have an agenda/are not completely honest in their polling. If you ask the question "Should Donald Trump be removed from office?" to 2000 millennials in urban California and 2000 boomers in the deep south, you'll get wildly different results. Neither result would actually be indicative of how the whole nation feels though, both because the sample size is too small and because the poll only targeted a specific demographic. Wording the poll as "was Trump's phone call inappropriate" vs "was Trump's phone call an impeachable offense" will also yield different results. You'd likely need to look at a lot of different polls to get a more accurate picture.

But really, unless one has been living under a rock for the past 4 or so years, you don't really need to look at polls to have a fairly accurate idea of what most of the country thinks. Donald Trump is a divisive president. A lot of people support him, and a lot of people don't (and there's probably a handful of fence sitters). So naturally opinion on the matter is very roughly split.

In the end though, public opinion matters little for the matter of Trump's impeachment. The outcome was decided from the very beginning: he won't be removed from office. The Senate vote won't come down to evidence, or right/wrong, or doing what's best for the country, but rather just the simple fact that most U.S. politicians for both major parties would rather die than hold one of their own accountable for (obvious) wrongdoing.

also:

He has zero grasp of economics

If we're gonna be real, how many people truly understand economics to a significant degree? I know I don't, and the only person who's posted in this thread so far that I could seriously believe that really does is Went, who literally has degrees in and makes his living on writing about international economics and politics.

 

[Maedar]

What any individual poll will say will vary based on who you poll and how you word the poll.

Uh, well, I posted a link to a poll. Sektor did not.

In the end though, public opinion matters little for the matter of Trump's impeachment. The outcome was decided from the very beginning: he won't be removed from office. The Senate vote won't come down to evidence, or right/wrong, or doing what's best for the country, but rather just the simple fact that most U.S. politicians for both major parties would rather die than hold one of their own accountable for (obvious) wrongdoing.

I agree. And the impeachment hearings will label them as willing accomplices to everything he's done, once his crimes are laid out in the open.

 

[EnglishALT]

Uh, well, I posted a link to a poll. Sektor did not.

Yes, but the poll is only of 500 people, with no demographic break down or partisanship breakdown. 500 alone is quite small for a nationwide survey

I agree. And the impeachment hearings will label them as willing accomplices to everything he's done, once his crimes are laid out in the open.

So far things are not looking good for the hearings, not a single witness has said they actually saw a crime being committed, or talked with the President.

 

[Ivysaur]

So far things are not looking good for the hearings, not a single witness has said they actually saw a crime being committed, or talked with the President.

Not that it's extremely relevant, as Trump himself confessed the crime and voluntarily handed in the required evidence by publishing the transcript in which he officially recorded himself commiting it. The transcript is the smoking gun and the criminal act itself, everything else is just circumstancial evidence to understand how deep the conspiracy went. Also a trap so Trump keeps committing extra crimes, such as intimidating witnesses live via Twitter.

 

[Hands]

stuff

Bernie Sanders isn't a socialist and the fact you think he is probably suggests you're the one who doesn't grasp basic economics (or political theory), especially considering the things he's suggested have been moderate views in Europe since the 30s/40s and most countries there implemented them fully and successfully decades ago.

 

[LDSman]

Bernie Sanders isn't a socialist and the fact you think he is probably suggests you're the one who doesn't grasp basic economics (or political theory), especially considering the things he's suggested have been moderate views in Europe since the 30s/40s and most countries there implemented them fully and successfully decades ago.

Sanders has called himself a socialist. He varies between that and "democratic socialist".

 

[EnglishALT]

Not that it's extremely relevant, as Trump himself confessed the crime and voluntarily handed in the required evidence by publishing the transcript in which he officially recorded himself commiting it. The transcript is the smoking gun and the criminal act itself, everything else is just circumstancial evidence to understand how deep the conspiracy went. Also a trap so Trump keeps committing extra crimes, such as intimidating witnesses live via Twitter.

Not exactly, for a quid pro quo to happen, the Ukrainians would have to know that there funds were linked to the investigations. So far no evidence has appeared of that, not even the transcripts bear that out. Even the Ukrainians have admitted that they did not know the funds were being frozen.

As for intimidating a witness, here are the tweets.

"Everywhere Marie Yovanovitch went turned bad. She started off in Somalia, how did that go? Then fast forward to Ukraine, where the new Ukrainian President spoke unfavorably about her in my second phone call with him. It is a U.S. President's absolute right to appoint ambassadors."

"....They call it "serving at the pleasure of the President." The U.S. now has a very strong and powerful foreign policy, much different than proceeding administrations. It is called, quite simply, America First! With all of that, however, I have done FAR more for Ukraine than O."

Where in any of that is intimidation, and further more how could it be intimidation when the tweets were made while she was testifying and thus had no knowledge of them until the Democrats brought them to her attention?

 

[Hands]

Sanders has called himself a socialist. He varies between that and "democratic socialist".

Oh well if he uses the word it must be true right? It doesn't matter that none of his policies revolve around workers owning the means of production or running society, he says he's one so that's all what matters.

 

[LDSman]

Oh well if he uses the word it must be true right? It doesn't matter that none of his policies revolve around workers owning the means of production or running society, he says he's one so that's all what matters.

So a "no true Scotsman" response?

So he's starting small. Dude insists he is a socialist. Repeatedly over many years.

 

[gimmepie]

Probably because what people consider a "socialist" has changed dramatically over the years. I call myself a socialist, and admittedly have much further left views than Bernie, but there is an argument for calling even me a "Social Democrat".

Also, it doesn't matter that Trump was too stupid to actually succeed in getting some quid pro quo going, because he still openly attempted to enlist the help of a foreign nation in hurting an electoral opponent's campaign - you know, again.

 

[Hands]

So a "no true Scotsman" response?

So he's starting small. Dude insists he is a socialist. Repeatedly over many years.

No, I'm asking you to stick to basic, well established definitions instead of playing McCarthy on a Pokemon forum and ignoring decades of history from your contemporaries.

Britain achieved universal healthcare in the years following WW2. We did that whilst bankrupt, during a rebuilding phase. We dealt with the equivalent of 9/11 every night for 8 months. In financial ruin, we pulled it off.


What's your excuse?

 

[Maedar]

Oh well if he uses the word it must be true right? It doesn't matter that none of his policies revolve around workers owning the means of production or running society, he says he's one so that's all what matters.

I doubt most Republicans can even define the term. They use it to scare people, framing it as "Communism lite" (it isn't) claiming poverty-stricken dictatorships like North Korea and Venezuela are socialist. (Not even close.)

They seem willingly ignorant. I've told them that Nelson Mandela and Golda Meir actually improved their country's conditions via Socialism, and Trump's sycophants claim "it only works in small countries". I remind them Albert Einstein was a Socialist, they respond by claiming he was regarded as an eccentric fool in his time (he was not), that he has Asperger's syndrome (an unfounded theory, but even if he did, so what?) or that he was a wife-beater (sadly true, but has nothing to do with political views). I remind them that Mark Twain was a Socialist, and they claim he was a nutcase who should have been locked up (not true at all; he was eccentric, sure, but nobody ever claimed he was mentally ill).

I remind them that Theodore Roosevelt was widely regarded as a socialist, given his reputation as a "trust-buster" who dismantled many large corporations, and I'm called names that cannot be printed here.

Trump voters won't learn and won't acknowledge the actual facts because they don't want to. Period.

 

[Neil Peart]

That's because it just looks like a show trial at this point. The Russian thing fell through and the dems hope to drag this farce of an investigation out till the election so they can milk the "our candidate isn't facing impeachment."

She did well enough with it.

Gotta appease their base and look like their trying something.

Which is incredibly stupid as his name is in the NEWS!

Very unlikely.

Less teflon Don and more that after all the other accusations fell apart, its turned into the "Dem who cried wolf!"



I disagree.

Everyone thinks the other groups political system is terrible.



There is no way that Sanders would have won. He has zero grasp of economics plus he's a socialist (redundant?). Most people know exactly were that leads and aren't interested in joining the breadlines.


Ah yes, stereotypes, insults and conspiracy theories.


I agree that the Dems won't be happy but I disagree that the world is trending towards intolerance.

What in the hell was the point of this response, exactly? You refuted nothing and offered nothing but snark and platitudes. Also, you have exposed your ignorance by calling Sanders a socialist, when he has made the distinction between "socialist" and "democratic socialist" repeatedly. And the slippery slope... lol. Low-effort; try again.

EDIT: ah, you're a Mormon. You needn't explain anything.

 

[EnglishALT]

Probably because what people consider a "socialist" has changed dramatically over the years. I call myself a socialist, and admittedly have much further left views than Bernie, but there is an argument for calling even me a "Social Democrat".

Also, it doesn't matter that Trump was too stupid to actually succeed in getting some quid pro quo going, because he still openly attempted to enlist the help of a foreign nation in hurting an electoral opponent's campaign - you know, again.

Well it actually does matter a quid pro quo can be an actual crime which is why the impeachment proceedings are built around it, if the quid pro quo did not actually exist then there is no reason to convict.

They use it to scare people, framing it as "Communism lite" (it isn't) claiming poverty-stricken dictatorships like North Korea and Venezuela are socialist. (Not even close.)

That will be quite a shock to the Venezuelan people considering it was Hugo Chavez and Maduro that advanced his form of socialism as "Socialism of the 21st Century"

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/...les-venezuela-with-21stcentury-socialism.html

They seem willingly ignorant. I've told them that Nelson Mandela

No doubt socialism can work out for a country in the short run, hell things improved in Venezuela temporarily, but if you are going to mention South Africa then it's important to also note how things are with the socialist government now, specifically the issue of forced land redistribution.