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Closing the VIP Forum

Close?


  • Total voters
    64

Nihilego

[color=#95b4d4]ユービーゼロイチ パラサイト[/color]
  • 8,875
    Posts
    13
    Years
    aw man it's been a while since I've made a thread like this.

    Anyway, background reading for this thread here. Basically, over the years there have been a few brief movements in various areas of PC including the VIP forum, staff forums, etc. in favour of closing the section. These never went particularly far, however, and as of yet there has not been a discussion providing convincing evidence that supporters consider the VIP forum unnecessary and would prefer that it be closed.

    Discuss the matter here, presenting your opinion in the attached poll and providing your comments / arguments in your posts. Please do make the effort to participate in this - as Klippy mentioned in the thread linked above, staff opinions haven't really had a huge impact on this so this is one of the very rare occasions in which Supporters will have a strong impact on the outcome of a forum decision.


    Anyway, as some of you know I'm strongly pro-closure. My thoughts on why the VIP forum is obsolete, why its existence is problematic (and therefore, why it should not simply be left for the few who do make use of it), and some of my responses to comments which I've heard regularly are spoilered below:

    Spoiler: BLAH
    Why is the VIP Forum obsolete?

    - The VIP Forum lacks purpose. Many previous attempts have been made to define the purpose of the VIP forum. A number of discussions in the thread which I linked earlier have addressed this topic, as well as innumerable staff threads. Despite this, no conclusions have ever really been reached, and beyond the occasional supporter-specific collaboration (a bit more on supporter specificity later), nothing massively productive has arisen from this forum which explicitly needs to be in this forum. Therefore, attempts to define the purpose of this forum have previously failed, and continue to do so.

    Additionally, although the VIP forum's description states that "your valued input may be required on PokéCommunity-related issues", this rarely happens for legitimate reasons as mentioned in the linked thread. Supporters are useful for beta-testing new and upcoming features, but having a supporter forum is neither a necessary or elegant conduit for this, and this is something else that I'll comment on later. Therefore, in addition to lacking any alternative clearly-defined purpose, the VIP forum fails to meet the purpose defined in its description and at the very least, even if the forum is not closed, the "your valued input may be required on PokéCommunity-related issues" comment must be removed.

    - Discussions in the VIP forum are equally or better-suited in other sections. Sampling the threads that have seen activity within the last month, they could have been in: Treehouse, Treehouse, nowhere else (but more on this later), Treehouse, Treehouse (with adaptation: simply "did you go platinum", which I believe was a thread made elsewhere anyway), Treehouse (despite the Treehouse thread on forum frontier existing for exactly the same purpose), Treehouse or CQ&F, Treehouse, Treehouse. With the exception of the collab thread, all of these could go somewhere else with little or no modification. The homogeneity of these threads also supports my above point (i.e., the content that is here could go elsewhere, and thus this forum lacks a specific purpose) and the overall activity compared to Treehouse is staggeringly low. Thus, there is significant overlap between this forum and others on PC, which have far superior activity statistics.


    What are the issues with the VIP forum's existence?

    - You should not have to pay for access to part of a "community". Supportership isn't, by definition, a purchase - but the VIP forum is still an area of the community accessible only to those who paid for it. Access to the VIP forum is not awarded based on merit within the community, nor contributions to the community; it's simply a matter of who has, or does not have, money. Of course there are exceptions to this, in that some people have won their supportership through contests or equivalent, but those people comprise a considerable minority. This is no different for people such as myself who have had money donated to them, as money is still what allowed access to this section.

    Having a section exclusively for those who can afford to use it (or choose to donate to PC) is, by definition, anti-community; PC aims to include everybody regardless of age (to a legal extent), background, etc. and having a forum only inclusive to those with money is starkly against that principal. Given PC's generally inclusive nature, it seems unacceptable to me that we should foster the idea that those who can give money deserve a place to speak only among themselves, as if they constitute a "separate" or "distinguished" group. The key point here is that money should not distinguish individual sets of members in terms of who they can or cannot communicate with in an all-inclusive online community, but the existence of a supporter-only forum harshly opposes this principal. In this way, I believe that the very existence of the VIP forum is damaging to our sense of community and implies that those users who have money are entitled to a wider community experience than those who do not.

    - "Access to the VIP forum" is a vague attraction for donations. When encouraging someone to donate for perks, we should be absolutely transparent with regards to what those perks are. People should know what, at the time of donating, they will receive for those donations. This is true for all supporter perks other than the VIP forum, which is regularly cited as disappointing by those who donated for its access. The content in the VIP forum crosses over substantially with other sections on PC, and its activity in comparison is sorely lacking. However, prospective donators have no way of knowing this, instead donating towards a perk which they have no actual understanding of.

    Therefore, unless we publish the content of the VIP forum publicly, we cannot claim that donators have an understanding of what they will receive in return for their donation. While I still stick by my "donation is not a purchase of perks" stance, I believe that using the VIP forum as an attraction for donations is a vague and thus, in my opinion, unethical tactic of soliciting community donations. To resolve this issue, the VIP forum needs to be either removed (thus eliminating its position as an attraction for donations) or opened to public viewing, but not posting.


    Common arguments against closure

    - "If the VIP forum is closed, we should be compensated in the form of another perk". Despite the "supportership is not a purchase" rhetoric, I would be in support of this due to how "large" a perk this forum is. However, I believe that the necessity of shutting down the VIP forum (discussed above) outweighs any perk that could be offered to the supporters.

    - "The VIP forum is the only place for supporter-relevant discussions such as perks." This is true, but they are few and far enough between that they do not warrant their own forum. Again, I believe that the reasons to close the forum strongly outweigh this point.

    - "What about supporter collabs?" Supporters already have striking cosmetic differences when compared to members, and therefore collabs only serve to further emphasise this. This is also true of staff collabs, which should be eliminated by the same logic. Any collaborations should be open to all those who wish to participate, and if numbers become an issue (such as for graphic designers supporting the collabs), limits can be placed on the number of participants. Additionally, tight-knit groups of friends are always free to organise their own collaborations, meaning that the "supportership" binding of collabs is superfluous.

    - "What about supporter-specific beta testing?" This is a good point which I believe should be maintained for supporters, as well as exercised more regularly. However, it does not demand a supporter forum; a separate discussion section is not necessary to support the beta testing of a feature. Instead, during beta tests, a much better solution would be to open a "you-and-staff-only" forum not unlike the Scrapbox, where only select staff and the OP can view the thread and discuss issues privately and individually. This allows each discussion to be addressed in isolation, resulting in a much easier workflow for the developers when reading through and addressing problems.


    tl;dr

    The VIP forum is has continually failed to have a defined purpose, is redundant alongside other sections, is harmful to the idea of an all-inclusive community, and is a very vague and misleading reason to donate. For these reasons, it is not only obsolete but is outright damaging, and should therefore be archived.
     
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    Aquacorde

    ⟡ dig down, dig down ⟡
  • 12,520
    Posts
    19
    Years
    Leafy definitely makes a lot of great points and I am vaguely pro-closure but before we go all the way with it I would like to see VIP become plat-only and a subforum of Treehouse as a little "secret hideout" area. I think it's cute to have a little silly exclusive area. But the exclusivity is really lacking now due to the abundance of supporters, and while that's great for PC it's not helping VIP feel like an secret little subset. I know sometimes people prefer to talk about things in a forum that's not publicized; it's more comfortable and easier to open up that way. And I feel if less people had access to VIP there might be more camaraderie amongst those that do have access, you know? I just think it could be a fun place. It doesn't need to be a main index forum or really extremely active, but for silly stuff and maybe even slightly more mature and open discussion- not like RT style mature but like. A conversation about mature topics. Does that make sense?
     

    Aquacorde

    ⟡ dig down, dig down ⟡
  • 12,520
    Posts
    19
    Years
    Oh I somehow missed the you-and-staff idea. I quite like that, as long as it is open to all members and the staff in question is restricted (to hstaff only maybe?). Maybe two of them, or tags- one for you-and-staff discussion and one for scrapbox-style stuff.
     

    Nihilego

    [color=#95b4d4]ユービーゼロイチ パラサイト[/color]
  • 8,875
    Posts
    13
    Years
    I am strongly pro-closure myself but...



    Is it really, though? This seems like a solution that would be better for the short-term instead of the long-term. I honestly cannot remember at any point in time since I first became a supporter that any PC beta testing was discussed here. I believe "beta testing" was in reference to when supporters got early access to forum skins before the rest of the userbase did. But since no one really makes skins as much anymore, the "beta testing" has lost nearly all of its meaning.

    like, in my mind, while i obviously cant speak for audy nor jake here, it seems to me that there would be more work on them if there was a scrapbox like forum for beta testing; or maybe it'd just be the same amount of work? instead of having to scroll through a giant megathread where users can post about bugs and whatnot, it'd be split up between multiple individual threads which doesn't really seem like a lot of change to me.

    am i perhaps misunderstanding? D:

    Well, it's true that beta-testing hasn't been used that much for supporters recently, but that's sort of another issue; supporters have been told that they'll be considered for beta testing so it's still a sort-of point.

    Anyway, if you wanna see an example of how this works, go look at the staff R&D forum (or whatever it's called now, assuming it's still there - if not, dig through the MCP to see if you can find it). Each thread represents a single issue which Audy/Jake discuss with the OP, and that's the layout they chose themselves. I figure it works as a sort of "ticket" system where each issue is addressed in isolation.

    Oh I somehow missed the you-and-staff idea. I quite like that, as long as it is open to all members and the staff in question is restricted (to hstaff only maybe?). Maybe two of them, or tags- one for you-and-staff discussion and one for scrapbox-style stuff.

    What I had in mind was it being open to everyone who is participating in the test, and only hstaff + OP could see the thread. Could even limit it to admin-only, depending on what the devs feel like doing.
     

    Aquacorde

    ⟡ dig down, dig down ⟡
  • 12,520
    Posts
    19
    Years
    oh I guess I misunderstood- I was envisoning a forum where everyone was able to both have a scrapbox for their own things and also have a nice convenient way to talk to hstaff in private instead of mass PMs or whatever haha.
     

    Nihilego

    [color=#95b4d4]ユービーゼロイチ パラサイト[/color]
  • 8,875
    Posts
    13
    Years
    oh I guess I misunderstood- I was envisoning a forum where everyone was able to both have a scrapbox for their own things and also have a nice convenient way to talk to hstaff in private instead of mass PMs or whatever haha.

    Well, it's just a very vague idea pitch ofc. It's a totally adaptable idea and is just there as a sort of possible solution to a problem!
     

    Aquacorde

    ⟡ dig down, dig down ⟡
  • 12,520
    Posts
    19
    Years
    I agree that VIP really doesn't need to be 'replaced' in terms of perks- I don't really think anyone really classifies this as a perk anymore haha it's just... here. We have plenty of incentives for donation overall if that's what people are donating for. I think we should be looking more to what can be improved overall rather than improved specifically for supporters. That's a different conversation though. :P
     

    Her

  • 11,468
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen yesterday
    Leafy definitely makes a lot of great points and I am vaguely pro-closure but before we go all the way with it I would like to see VIP become plat-only and a subforum of Treehouse as a little "secret hideout" area. I think it's cute to have a little silly exclusive area. But the exclusivity is really lacking now due to the abundance of supporters, and while that's great for PC it's not helping VIP feel like an secret little subset. I know sometimes people prefer to talk about things in a forum that's not publicized; it's more comfortable and easier to open up that way. And I feel if less people had access to VIP there might be more camaraderie amongst those that do have access, you know? I just think it could be a fun place. It doesn't need to be a main index forum or really extremely active, but for silly stuff and maybe even slightly more mature and open discussion- not like RT style mature but like. A conversation about mature topics. Does that make sense?

    I just don't see how this isn't a transparent attempt at a clique forum, like... the only reason VIP forum even remotely thrived in the past was because when they saw it as exclusive, they thought higher of themselves and acted like it. When the numbers of supporters inevitably climbed once the vast majority of the forum got older/access to money, that weird attitude died down and the forum, while never a hive of activity, has been a ghost town ever since. That's just the fact of the matter. Trying to create an even smaller subset for literally the idea of exclusively just seems like an attempt to return to the attitude of the past and it's a bit odd.
     
  • 23,668
    Posts
    11
    Years
    • She/Her, It/Its
    • Online now
    I'll miss that little bit of elitism and feeling of belonging to some kind of group. At the other site at some point there was no real reason for me to dwell in the VIP section, anymore. Kind of sad to see the section going, but I think it would be the right choice.

    Dunno, if one could even make supporter collabs an argument, considering how the most recent attempts all failed misserably. Maybe we really are too many people? Maybe from all those people who have a supporter title only certain little groups really hold together, whereas everyone else is just there to make the text in the forum more colorful.

    Getting perks as a replacement doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Kinda reminds me of people who lost someone and then try to bargain with whoever because they can't get over their loss; never really helped anyone.
     
  • 2,413
    Posts
    16
    Years
    To Adri's post & Plat VIP Only:
    That and plat isn't even that exclusive with that black friday sale awhile ago anymore.

    In terms of this forum, in an age where every section wants to promote it's own activity, this forum doesn't help. I'm not saying it's actively hurting other activities, but if it exists only for other supports to talk to other supporters, it's pretty useless. There are cool people who are not supporters who do and say cool things, so having a section without them is not as interesting.
    In terms of if it makes sponsorship worth it or not worth it, I'd say it as a perk doesn't change much. If you want it for the elitism, having a bigger avatar and a shiny bar is enough.
     

    Aquacorde

    ⟡ dig down, dig down ⟡
  • 12,520
    Posts
    19
    Years
    lol adriana why do you keep accusing me and my friends of trying to make a clique i dont even know who is plat at all and we obvs keep our own clique somewhere else

    I'm pretty sure we're kind of over the mentality of being "better than" just because we had a bit more money to spare at some point. All I wanted to see was trying one more lil change before shutting it down completely- in the form of a smaller, more intimate discussion area. See what happens with that and how it flows, then make a decision again later down the line.
     
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  • 18,353
    Posts
    10
    Years
    I'm against closure because I really like talking to you guys here and I've grown accustomed to it, but i can't really offer a good argument ^^
     

    Dragon

    lover of milotics
  • 11,151
    Posts
    10
    Years
    I'm against closure because I really like talking to you guys here and I've grown accustomed to it, but i can't really offer a good argument ^^

    Aw, don't worry! There are plenty of other places where we can chat on here. ^^
     

    Her

  • 11,468
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen yesterday
    I'm against closure because I really like talking to you guys here and I've grown accustomed to it, but i can't really offer a good argument ^^

    I think you're a good example to focus on - the member who just wants the community aspect that they apparently can't find elsewhere. I've long since thought of this place as nothing but a wasteland with a couple of weeds that pop up every now and then, so I'm a bit hardened to the idea that a community can thrive in this tiny little subset. But you and a few others have that feeling, so I'm genuinely curious: what do you find here that you can't find anywhere else?
     
  • 37,467
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • they/them
    • Seen Apr 19, 2024
    Yea, if a vast majority wants to or doesn't even care, let's close it. The VIP Forum's only real use over the past years have been bi-yearly discussions about - funnily - what do to with the VIP Forum.

    If it becomes apparent that some other channel/club/place/perk for supporters would be nice, we can come up with it later.
     

    Aquacorde

    ⟡ dig down, dig down ⟡
  • 12,520
    Posts
    19
    Years
    i forgot we had a skype group lmao
    idk i think discord might work better for it just due to how it is set up compared to skype but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    i mean also if we want to have a supporter chat place but not have a forum for it a discord channel would work ya
     
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  • 18,353
    Posts
    10
    Years
    @Freiza I think its that there's a slightly smaller base so it's not so overwhelming for me ^^ And is a bit more private, but that's just me. Like I said I'm not good at coming up with arguments lol
     
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