News: CoroCoro reveals Rockruff's evolutions & new Ultra Beasts for Sun and Moon!

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Are you hoping that its midnight form also learns Accel Rock like its midday form? And since you're an expert on competitive battles, will the move itself create any large shake ups to the metagame like hindering Talonflame's usage?

I think it will hinder it if the pokemon who get it have the necessary attack (and speed as it'll become a battle of the fastest if it has the same stage priority as Gale Wind, which it probably does) to OHKO Talonflame.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Are you hoping that its midnight form also learns Accel Rock like its midday form? And since you're an expert on competitive battles, will the move itself create any large shake ups to the metagame like hindering Talonflame's usage?

I hope so too. If it sees decent distribution, Talonflame, Volcarona, and other Pokemon 4x weak to Rock will become almost irrelevant.

 

[raxic_ex]

I hope so too. If it sees decent distribution, Talonflame, Volcarona, and other Pokemon 4x weak to Rock will become almost irrelevant.

Wow I didn't speculate this, I don't play competitive that much often, but I feel like every new ability and new moves introduced in Sun/Moon basically will affect the whole meta, like how Accel Rock will make Talonflame cry, and Dazzling, Disguise, Stamina, Innards Out and Wimp Out ability all are useful in competitive. I think GF take note of boring VGC tournament (same pokemon same strat) and they improve the meta to be better, isn't that just nice?

 

[abarai]

The sun ultra beast and rockruffs new forms look great!.
Some really appealing designs this gen so far.

 

[Hikamaru]

I hope so too. If it sees decent distribution, Talonflame, Volcarona, and other Pokemon 4x weak to Rock will become almost irrelevant.

You are kinda right, and it doesn't help most 4x Rock weak Pokemon are already becoming irrelevant thanks to Stealth Rock so having a priority Rock move will be the final dent in them. 7th Gen metagame is already looking to be very anti-Talonflame here.

Wow I didn't speculate this, I don't play competitive that much often, but I feel like every new ability and new moves introduced in Sun/Moon basically will affect the whole meta, like how Accel Rock will make Talonflame cry, and Dazzling, Disguise, Stamina, Innards Out and Wimp Out ability all are useful in competitive. I think GF take note of boring VGC tournament (same pokemon same strat) and they improve the meta to be better, isn't that just nice?

I admit the new abilities are very interesting, although Innards Out suggests Aftermath clone to me. Wimp Out I definitely won't like since it'll make catching wild Wimpod difficult in that you can't weaken it too much, but hopefully Dazzling can get some HA distribution because having that ability a Bruxish exclusive would be a waste of a notable anti-metagame ability.

Yungoos/Gumshoos' new Stakeout will definitely make people think twice before switching, and then there's Komala's Comatose which blocks every status apart from sleep. Corrosion and Triage also look like it'll get competitive relevance. And finally, Alolan Raichu and Tapu Koko synergy will be tough to take on in Doubles, other than countering them with Ground-types that is.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

You are kinda right, and it doesn't help most 4x Rock weak Pokemon are already becoming irrelevant thanks to Stealth Rock so having a priority Rock move will be the final dent in them. 7th Gen metagame is already looking to be very anti-Talonflame here.

And this is why the Charizard pandering is important regardless of your distaste towards its focus, because they remove Mega Evolutions, then it'll become one of the worst Pokemon again no thanks to Stealth Rock, and soon Accel Rock. Game Freak wouldn't want to ruin this Pokemon's reputation as a decent Pokemon both in-game and in competitive battles.

 

[Adam Levine]

I think Lugarugan being Rock (at least part Rock, I think) alludes to werewolves' natural weakness to silver.

 

[Caaethil]

Considering Lillie is flat-out stated to be "important to the story," I think it's kind of obvious UB-01's resemblance is important, too. So if the other UB's are meant to resemble any one (really? Gladion still? Am I missing something? Does his mostly-black sweater cover his shredded abs that the mostly-red EXPANSION clearly has?) I think it would be fair to say it's important, too.

I'd say one version focusing on a certain character and the other version focusing on someone else is pushing it, too. You'd most likely miss out on crucial character development if one character is pushed aside in favor of another, which is also unfair, especially if they don't make that clear to the playerbase beforehand (but even if they did it's still pretty unfair).

I love making good use of version differences but I think major plot things like that should stay the same across both games.

You still don't know that they won't. For all you know they could just be reskins and serve the exact same role in the story. You don't know that Beauty has a super important link to Lusamine. You don't know anything yet.

 

[Rivvon]

You still don't know that they won't. For all you know they could just be reskins and serve the exact same role in the story. You don't know that Beauty has a super important link to Lusamine. You don't know anything yet.

Of course we don't know, the games aren't out yet. People call the pre-release timeframe the "speculation period" for that reason. Just because we don't know how the game will be in its entirety doesn't mean we shouldn't speculate, or discuss what possibilities we think would be good or bad.

 

[Caaethil]

Of course we don't know, the games aren't out yet. People call the pre-release timeframe the "speculation period" for that reason. Just because we don't know how the game will be in its entirety doesn't mean we shouldn't speculate, or discuss what possibilities we think would be good or bad.

But you weren't speculating, nor were you discussing possibilities. You said the prospect of Beauty and Absorption being version exclusive would be 'beyond unfair'. To which I told you that you were jumping to conclusions, which you were.

Nothing wrong with speculation, but jumping to conclusions and immediately denouncing something as bad is not speculation, it's baseless assumptions.

 

[Rivvon]

But you weren't speculating, nor were you discussing possibilities. You said the prospect of Beauty and Absorption being version exclusive would be 'beyond unfair'. To which I told you that you were jumping to conclusions, which you were.

Nothing wrong with speculation, but jumping to conclusions and immediately denouncing something as bad is not speculation, it's baseless assumptions.

Please excuse me for my bluntness, but... what?

This is word-for-word your "idea" on the matter of them being version-exclusive:

Nobody knows how important the resemblance to characters is. Expansion could be based on Gladion, and they could tell the story with more of a focus on Gladion rather than Lusamine. We don't know.

That, in my opinion, is absolutely unfair. I'd think most people who want the games to have a deep story and expressive characters would not enjoy one game to focus on one character and the other game focuses on another; the best would be if both have their focus in both games.

If the games focused only on certain characters depending on the version, it would be unfair. I love when version differences are taken advantage of because I can still trade with my friends to get what I'm missing. But something like what you yourself described, I would have to buy both games if I wanted the "full experience." That is not fair.

You can say it's "jumping to conclusions" all you want but in reality you're the one who brought up that prospect to begin with. And my response to your idea is that it is not fair, because I don't think anyone has to feel compelled to buy both games to experience the full extent of the characters or story. If anyone wants to buy both games, it should be because they want to make completing the PokéDex easier on themselves or they just want both for whatever reason, not because they need to in order to get the full experience.

 

[Caaethil]

That, in my opinion, is absolutely unfair. I'd think most people who want the games to have a deep story and expressive characters would not enjoy one game to focus on one character and the other game focuses on another; the best would be if both have their focus in both games.

Because they have absolutely never done anything like this before and I'm an idiot for even proposing something like that might happen.

Team Magma and Team Aqua. Cough cough. Excuse my bluntness.

If the games focused only on certain characters depending on the version, it would be unfair.

I really would like your opinion on R/S/E.

I love when version differences are taken advantage of because I can still trade with my friends to get what I'm missing. But something like what you yourself described, I would have to buy both games if I wanted the "full experience." That is not fair.

You've told me this already.

You can say it's "jumping to conclusions" all you want but in reality you're the one who brought up that prospect to begin with.

I brought up the prospect. Speculation. You said that it was a terrible idea and the world would end if it ever came to be. But you just don't know yet. You can't say that. You can say "I'm not sure that would be a good idea", but you cannot say "That is a horrible idea" without even seeing it in practice.

Wait, you have seen it in practice. Gen 3. Opinion?

And my response to your idea is that it is not fair, because I don't think anyone has to feel compelled to buy both games to experience the full extent of the characters or story.

Did anybody feel compelled to buy Sapphire after they'd already bought Ruby because of exclusive teams? Did anybody have a burning passion to witness the story of Archie?

No, it was one of the community's favourite version differences of all time. But obviously this is completely different and if anything even close to this is revealed to happen, we're all in trouble.

If anyone wants to buy both games, it should be because they want to make completing the PokéDex easier on themselves or they just want both for whatever reason, not because they need to in order to get the full experience.

I'm guessing you really didn't like Gen 3.

This is as big of a deal as you think it is.

 

[Rivvon]

Because they have absolutely never done anything like this before and I'm an idiot for even proposing something like that might happen.

Team Magma and Team Aqua. Cough cough. Excuse my bluntness.


I really would like your opinion on R/S/E.

My opinion is that Maxie is a recolor of Archie so the plot "differences" in gen 3 are more akin to tiny embellishments being changed rather than completely different characters being given priority over each other. I'm giving SM the benefit of the doubt and making my speculations based on the idea that the plot and characters will be much more in-depth than what we received in gen 3.

I brought up the prospect. Speculation. You said that it was a terrible idea and the world would end if it ever came to be. But you just don't know yet. You can't say that. You can say "I'm not sure that would be a good idea", but you cannot say "That is a horrible idea" without even seeing it in practice.

The world totally would end. The sun and moon would not be aligned and the lizard people would--wait no I can't divulge that information.

Also dude it should be totally obvious that when I speak of things that aren't scientifically proven facts that they're my opinions. If the fact that I don't preface each of my sentences with "this is my opinion" is what is so offensive to you, I apologize. But in my opinion, you should probably get used to seeing peoples' opinions on speculative topics worded this way and not get so confrontational over them when they are.

Did anybody feel compelled to buy Sapphire after they'd already bought Ruby because of exclusive teams? Did anybody have a burning passion to witness the story of Archie?

No because sadly the characters were not very in-depth, although the idea behind them was interesting. Even their dialog isn't changed much between versions. You're literally picking, "Do you want Red Bad Guy, or Blue Bad Guy?" in RS. See above: I'd like to imagine SM will take their characters way more seriously and give them much more depth than Maxie and Archie.

If I'm wrong and Gladion and Lusamine end up being the exact same character but under a different design then great, the version difference won't matter. But then I could say (disclaimer: this is my opinion) that it's a waste to have two characters be copies of each other just for the sake of having one more version difference, when they could have been their own unique character and both be prominently featured in both games.

 

[Caaethil]

My opinion is that Maxie is a recolor of Archie so the plot "differences" in gen 3 are more akin to tiny embellishments being changed rather than completely different characters being given priority over each other. I'm giving SM the benefit of the doubt and making my speculations based on the idea that the plot and characters will be much more in-depth than what we received in gen 3.

I'm not entirely sure why you're assuming Sun and Moon will have a better story than the other generations, but okay, I'll bite. Who's to say that the extra focus on each character is not just reskinning too? Let's say when you see UB-02, the character it is associated with in your version is also present and says some generic things. They can still be good, in depth characters in their own rights, but in that specific instance a different character appears.

But no, obviously you assume this is all horrible and there will be characters missing massive plot development, because you assume that the ultra beasts' resemblance to characters is going to be a massive plot point which will create such massive plot development.

The world totally would end. The sun and moon would not be aligned and the lizard people would--wait no I can't divulge that information.

The lizard people did not get enough plot development in this post. I need to play the other version of www.pokecommunity.com to get the full story.

Also dude it should be totally obvious that when I speak of things that aren't scientifically proven facts that they're my opinions.

I'm perfectly aware that they're you're opinions. That's why I'm arguing they're wrong. Dude.

What I do not think you understand is that your opinions on how version exclusive ultra beasts are a terrible idea are built on completely baseless assumptions.

If the fact that I don't preface each of my sentences with "this is my opinion" is what is so offensive to you, I apologize..

Your comments on a children's video game are not so profound as to leave me so speechless that I'm left offended. I don't think I'm quite as rattled by this as you think I am.

I think I should make myself very clear in saying that I'm perfectly aware that these are your opinions, and I do not at all claim that you lack the awareness to see for yourself that these are opinions. Not for a second did I bring up "facts vs opinions". Rather, I brought up "speculation vs baseless assumptions and doomsaying". See the difference?

But in my opinion, you should probably get used to seeing peoples' opinions on speculative topics worded this way and not get so confrontational over them when they are.

No, I will not get used to seeing people's arguments worded that way (i.e. poorly). It's not confrontational of me to correct you when your point is completely wrong (in my opinion, if I must clarify that, lest I appear as a hypocrite). You said "this would be terrible", but you don't know that. Saying "this would be terrible", is an objectively false statement. Saying "it would be massively unfair" is, similarly, false, because such systems can be implemented without these issues.

So if these systems can be implemented without the issues you bring up, why do you claim that these issues will come about (in your opinion)?

No because sadly the characters were not very in-depth, although the idea behind them was interesting. Even their dialog isn't changed much between versions. You're literally picking, "Do you want Red Bad Guy, or Blue Bad Guy?" in RS. See above: I'd like to imagine SM will take their characters way more seriously and give them much more depth than Maxie and Archie.

So your assumption that this will be terrible is built on the assumption that Sun and Moon will have the best characters of every generation? It's a double wammy.

If I'm wrong and Gladion and Lusamine end up being the exact same character but under a different design then great, the version difference won't matter. But then I could say (disclaimer: this is my opinion) that it's a waste to have two characters be copies of each other just for the sake of having one more version difference, when they could have been their own unique character and both be prominently featured in both games.

It is verifiably false that they are the same character but reskinned. It is obvious to anybody who at least watched the trailer they were shown in.

What I would like to say, though, is that for all we know both characters could appear in both games, be super amazing and unique and interesting, and then a different character could talk to you for literally about 10 seconds about UB-02 depending on the version.

That didn't take me much imagination. Meanwhile you seem to have two extremes - either they're reskins, or major plot will be lost. On one hand you're infinitely hopeful that the characters will be top notch, and on the other you're incredibly pessimistic about how Lusamine and Gladion will miss out on major plot. It's incredibly inconsistent of you and that's why I'm condemning the assumptions in the first place, because to think that anything like this would happen requires an incredibly specific set of parameters which would cause a certain outcome. So the only way you could possibly believe this is by making multiple baseless, inconsistent assumptions.

 

[Rivvon]

I'm not entirely sure why you're assuming Sun and Moon will have a better story than the other generations, but okay, I'll bite. Who's to say that the extra focus on each character is not just reskinning too? Let's say when you see UB-02, the character it is associated with in your version is also present and says some generic things. They can still be good, in depth characters in their own rights, but in that specific instance a different character appears.

I'm not assuming they will--not at all, actually. I haven't been hyped at all about SM. Nothing they've shown has really gotten me excited. But when I saw that they're adding in these new, non-human non-Pokémon antagonistic creatures--something the series really hasn't seen before--I wanted to hope that maybe, just maybe, the plot will be able to hold its own, unlike XY which had amazing foundations but led to a fairly large letdown in its handling of characters. If it's so wrong of me to hope that the story and characters will be better this time around, then oops!

But no, obviously you assume this is all horrible and there will be characters missing massive plot development, because you assume that the ultra beasts' resemblance to characters is going to be a massive plot point which will create such massive plot development.

The UB's seem to be fairly important. Gladion and Lusamine seem to be fairly important. If the UB's, who seem to be important, are purposefully resembling two other seemingly important characters, wouldn't that be important? Or is that too much of a stretch?

What I do not think you understand is that your opinions on how version exclusive ultra beasts are a terrible idea are built on completely baseless assumptions.

Okay, sure. But since the plot and characters are so vague at this point, wouldn't anything and everything we think up be built on completely baseless assumptions? So, we shouldn't speculate or share our opinions at all?

Your comments on a children's video game are not so profound as to leave me so speechless that I'm left offended. I don't think I'm quite as rattled by this as you think I am.

Then why is my opinion on version-exclusive character development so important to you for you to dissect each of my responses to this thread?

So your assumption that this will be terrible is built on the assumption that Sun and Moon will have the best characters of every generation? It's a double wammy.

Would you rather I assume the worst and just drop the idea that the games may indeed have a chance at having good characters?

Also I highly doubt I've ever said that I think SM will guaranteed have the best characters out of all the characters ever. I just hope they will be good--better than the gen 6 games, at least.

It is verifiably false that they are the same character but reskinned. It is obvious to anybody who at least watched the trailer they were shown in.

I agree. Which is why I can't imagine the version-exclusive UB's being based on them to be a good idea. Unless the UB's themselves aren't a major aspect of the game. But then... Well, why wouldn't they be? See above, my second response.

 

[Caaethil]

I'm not assuming they will--not at all, actually. I haven't been hyped at all about SM. Nothing they've shown has really gotten me excited. But when I saw that they're adding in these new, non-human non-Pokémon antagonistic creatures--something the series really hasn't seen before--I wanted to hope that maybe, just maybe, the plot will be able to hold its own, unlike XY which had amazing foundations but led to a fairly large letdown in its handling of characters. If it's so wrong of me to hope that the story and characters will be better this time around, then oops!

So you don't like the word assuming. Let me change it to... Presupposing. So what you're doing is presupposing that things will be better this time around. You're saying "This will cause a lack of character development", but you're presupposing that, you don't actually know that. If you're just hoping it will be like that, then you shouldn't be presupposing it will be like that and use it as the basis of your argument when saying things like "This will cause a lack of character development".

The crux of my point is that you don't know that this story is going to be any more complex than Ruby and Sapphire. You don't know how complex the story is at all. You don't know that Sun will miss out on Lusamine character development, therefore it is unreasonable to believe so.

The UB's seem to be fairly important. Gladion and Lusamine seem to be fairly important. If the UB's, who seem to be important, are purposefully resembling two other seemingly important characters, wouldn't that be important? Or is that too much of a stretch?

It may very well be important, but we don't know how developed it will be. It could be explained in a line of text and never brought up again. It could just be a case of switching which character appears during a certain event. Maxie and Archie were important characters, but that doesn't mean we missed out on much by not playing both versions.

Okay, sure. But since the plot and characters are so vague at this point, wouldn't anything and everything we think up be built on completely baseless assumptions? So, we shouldn't speculate or share our opinions at all?

No. "This could happen" does not equal "This will happen". You said the latter. I argued against it. There's nothing more or less to it.

Then why is my opinion on version-exclusive character development so important to you for you to dissect each of my responses to this thread?

I'm glad you think your opinion is important to me, but it's really not. I just enjoy discussion. That's, um, why I'm on an internet forum in the first place.

Would you rather I assume the worst and just drop the idea that the games may indeed have a chance at having good characters?

I think it's fairly obvious that I'd rather you stop assuming things entirely.

Also I highly doubt I've ever said that I think SM will guaranteed have the best characters out of all the characters ever. I just hope they will be good--better than the gen 6 games, at least.

You hope they will, which is why you take that possibility and inflate it to the point where version exclusive ultra beasts must mean that we will miss out on character development, and that will be massively unfair.

See the issue?

I agree. Which is why I can't imagine the version-exclusive UB's being based on them to be a good idea. Unless the UB's themselves aren't a major aspect of the game. But then... Well, why wouldn't they be? See above, my second response.

You know, if you hadn't completely ignored the part where I perfectly explained this, it would be immediately obvious that this is nonsense. Here, I'll even copy-paste it again:

What I would like to say, though, is that for all we know both characters could appear in both games, be super amazing and unique and interesting, and then a different character could talk to you for literally about 10 seconds about UB-02 depending on the version.

Easy. You get complex, cool characters who aren't reskins and version exclusivity. Just change the character who appears in a few select scenes. Doesn't need to be major character development, just have a different character appear in whatever scenes regard the fact that the ultra beasts resemble the new characters. Lemon squeezy.

 

[Rivvon]

You hope they will, which is why you take that possibility and inflate it to the point where version exclusive ultra beasts must mean that we will miss out on character development, and that will be massively unfair.

I mean... yes. I do believe that version-exclusive character development is unfair. I can't imagine a case in which it's fair. So... if it does turn out that the difference in UB's is important and tied to a specific character, I think it will be unfair. That's... all there is to that, really.

What I would like to say, though, is that for all we know both characters could appear in both games, be super amazing and unique and interesting, and then a different character could talk to you for literally about 10 seconds about UB-02 depending on the version.

...I mean, you're just assuming this, right? You're assuming they're gonna be good to begin with and then you're assuming the version difference in question is going to be minor enough to not matter. That's the problem with you saying my concern at the possibility of version-exclusive character development (which was only brought up because you offered it as a possibility which I proceeded to say I don't like) is nothing but baseless assumption: everything at this point is baseless assumption because the story and characters have not been revealed in-depth.

Which hey, I think your idea is pretty fair. But if you're gonna claim everything I say is just a baseless assumption that shouldn't even be considered as a possibility, then I can say the same thing right back to you and your ideas. So as much as you enjoy online discussion, there's no way this one can move forward, and as such I see no reason to keep this up. Sorry!

 

[Caaethil]

I mean... yes. I do believe that version-exclusive character development is unfair. I can't imagine a case in which it's fair. So... if it does turn out that the difference in UB's is important and tied to a specific character, I think it will be unfair. That's... all there is to that, really.

That's not exactly what you said though, is it? You said this is unfair and will cause us to lose out on plot. Which even you admit now is not necessarily the case.

...I mean, you're just assuming this, right? You're assuming they're gonna be good to begin with and then you're assuming the version difference in question is going to be minor enough to not matter.

For the love of...

I didn't assume. I proposed another possibility. I didn't say "this will happen". I said something else COULD happen. I assumed zero. If you actually read my post it is beyond obvious there is no comparison here. I'm saying that your assumption is unfair because something different could happen.

COULD.

That's the problem with you saying my concern at the possibility of version-exclusive character development (which was only brought up because you offered it as a possibility which I proceeded to say I don't like) is nothing but baseless assumption: everything at this point is baseless assumption because the story and characters have not been revealed in-depth.

I really think you need to be reintroduced to the definition of the word assumption because you keep saying this and it's not getting any less wrong:

"a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof."

SPECULATION is not assumption. Saying something COULD happen is not assumption. Saying "this WILL happen" (what you did) is assumption. Are we clear on this yet?

Which hey, I think your idea is pretty fair. But if you're gonna claim everything I say is just a baseless assumption that shouldn't even be considered as a possibility, then I can say the same thing right back to you and your ideas. So as much as you enjoy online discussion, there's no way this one can move forward, and as such I see no reason to keep this up. Sorry!

Stop being ridiculous. I didn't say your idea shouldn't even be considered. I said it's a baseless assumption. Yes, that could happen, and speculating about that is fine. But saying that will happen is assumption, not speculation. What I did was speculate, saying that the assumption was unfair because that might not happen. I never assumed it wouldn't. The difference is pretty obvious. You're making this exceedingly difficult for me by putting all of these words in my mouth (or completely forgetting the definition of the word assumption, whichever you prefer).

But no, it is entirely my fault that this is going around in circles. Sure. Have a nice day then.