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Do you think the writers and the (dub) actors are incompetent?

Wobbu

bunger bunger bunger bunger
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    I cited the completely different audiences, and in fact even pointed out that Pokémon's audience was even more inclusive than NCIS's audience (NCIS being adults only, while Pokémon being for children). Also, NCIS has access to streaming from the official site, and in fact, people are more likely to access NCIS via the internet than even by antenna TV. I may use antenna TV instead of cable more than actually watching it online, but its clear online viewing is still very much popular, and many of the ratings actually came from the online viewings rather than just Nielsen ratings. And again, Japan's ratings doesn't use Nielsen ratings, yet they are still sinking like rocks, and the show's drop in ratings are pretty severe. I think Kanto was a 15, while AG was about a 10 at the beginning, a 7 by the end (heck, at the time, the Pike Queen episode was the lowest-rated episode of all time), 9 by the beginning of DP, and decreasing since then. Keep in mind that those are Japan's ratings, not merely the Nielsen standard for America. Considering what happened with BW, it's probably going to be even worse in ratings than before. Considering Pokémon is geared towards children, such a ratings decrease would not be possible. Even if some kids of the target demographic outgrow the show, plenty more will be there to replace them to not allow a ratings decrease. The only possible way barring the show going in a direction that most kids even those who barely even follow the show anyways deciding to not watch it at all, is if there was a huge catastrophe where most kids had died, and honestly, something like that would have been reported on the news if that were the case. Not to mention TVTokyo, the station Pokémon airs on, is not a cable channel (at least so far as I can tell), and based on the AM/FM format is closer to an antenna-based channel like CBS.
    And I read your point about the differences between the shows. But you failed to mention how those differences skew the ratings. Of course shows prime time shows like NCIS are going to have higher ratings. They air at easily accessible times and to a much larger audience.

    Nope, but the fact that DVD Boxed Sets are very popular is a huge hint that a lot of people are more similar to my dad. Otherwise, I'm extremely doubtful they would have sold many if at all.
    Even if more people are buying DVD Boxed Sets, that doesn't mean that they are watching them, nor does it necessarily mean that a large number of people are buying them. And doesn't an increase in the purchases of Boxed DVD Sets send a positive message?


    Considering the drop in ratings, the complaints made by at least one former showrunner (you know, one of the guys actually in charge of running the show) and two VAs, and various other things, yes, that does in fact mean the writers are incompetent. True, they may get some good enough ratings to continue, but then again, the Disney DTV sequels also made some money and got some decent ratings, didn't cause the company to file for bankruptcy, yet no one can deny they were mostly garbage only made for a quick money grab. It's the same thing for the show right now.
    That's precisely the main purpose of the anime; to earn more money for the franchise. It's working, too. People still watch it, new series are still being made, and episodes continue to air on a weekly basis, despite all of the negative points that you have brought up. It will continue that way, too, regardless of the ratings it gets.

    And to address your comment when you deleted my post, I wasn't inferring that you said anything inappropriate, I was talking to CarCharOdin, since he had an image depicting someone flipping the bird showing his assessment of what the writers are saying by keeping Ash 10 years old. And the comment was in direct reply to CarCharOdin's comment which was on-topic. He heeded my advice and put spoiler tags onto the post, BTW, so don't report him.
    I apologize for the misunderstanding, but please use the report button in the future.
     

    Aquacorde

    ⟡ dig down, dig down ⟡
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    "The rating system is very simple. All the major Japanese television networks make up the Japanese television market, so a research firm must determine the size of an average audience. The audience size is determined using two factors: the amount of content that is transmitted and the amount that is received, as market size varies from firm to firm. The actual viewer count of a given episode is calculated using a variety of polling methods. Ratings are calculated using a percentage or point system. This is based on the episode's viewership numbers divided by the market size. Finally, the numbers are published on the research firm's website. A hard copy is also produced."

    Now, let's think about this. This means that we have to consider what is competing with Pokémon on that timeslot. We have to consider how many TVs are in the average Japanese household, and who has say over what's being watched. We have to remember that a lot of people may not watch Pokémon at airtime because they are busy, have other things to watch, and/or know it will be online shortly- I'm one of those, at least for the dub. And this system relies entirely on averages, too. It's not a precise calculation of how many people are watching certain shows.

    But this isn't about ratings. Ratings are just how many people are watching specifically timed broadcasts on a somewhat dated medium. It's all numbers. A discussion about writer competence is about opinions. It is an argument of consistency, plot, and characterization. And it is carried out by the dedicated fans who have seen a hell of a lot of this show. Barring Mr. Weedle over there, who, begging his pardon, I do not actually pay attention to during these arguments because he himself admits he has not watched anything beyond OS and that really invalidates his opinion on later series. The point is, most people who watch this on TV? They're with it for a few years and move on. They don't stick around to see Scalchop King being a rehash of Cream of the Croagunk Crop. That's a five year gap with no guarentee that they'll even have seen one of those episodes. Maybe they missed that day. Whatever. They don't see Team Rocket being super repetitive, because they haven't been watching them do the same thing for seventeen years. Some of them don't see a jarring change in BW because that's what they started with- and that was what the writers of that series wanted, a fresh start. Didn't go over as well as hoped, but that was the intention.

    My general feelings of writer competence does take this all into consideration, along with other factors. I believe the writers do not do an awful job. I believe they could, however, do a much better job. My main concern is characterization. Ash is fairly consistent, barring BW, which they seem to be trying their best to ignore as well. Misty, May, and Dawn, were very good characters (even though Misty didn't get much development). Iris fell short when she had potential due to poor pacing and personality inconsistencies on a ep-by-ep basis. But that's all done, nothing anyone can do really. Serena is the focus now. And the writers themselves seem unsure of where she's going. There's been some promising baking/PokéVision stuff, but also... she's only just beginning to blend well with the group and her crush on Ash is somewhat detrimental to her development. Why focus on something that will come to no fruition and everyone knows it?
     
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    And I read your point about the differences between the shows. But you failed to mention how those differences skew the ratings. Of course shows prime time shows like NCIS are going to have higher ratings. They air at easily accessible times and to a much larger audience.

    And Pokémon doesn't on TVTokyo? Last I checked, they air during a time kids are most likely to watch them, yet they still get bad ratings.

    Even if more people are buying DVD Boxed Sets, that doesn't mean that they are watching them, nor does it necessarily mean that a large number of people are buying them. And doesn't an increase in the purchases of Boxed DVD Sets send a positive message?

    Past episodes get the Boxed episodes, I can't say that most recent episodes are going to get much sales. In fact, I can't say I've even seen many Boxed DVD sets at Best Buy for Pokémon beyond Kanto or the Original Series.

    That's precisely the main purpose of the anime; to earn more money for the franchise. It's working, too. People still watch it, new series are still being made, and episodes continue to air on a weekly basis, despite all of the negative points that you have brought up. It will continue that way, too, regardless of the ratings it gets.

    Yeah, and when Heroes and West Wing ended up cancelled precisely because of extremely bad ratings, heck, GCB as well (that failed to last a whole season, due to low ratings and especially the offensive depiction of Christians in that show), the fact that Pokémon is losing ratings, especially after BW, means its days are numbered, and that it is not doing too good. I've sat through shows that have in fact been cancelled because of very poor ratings. Heck, Love Hina was actually doing fairly well as an Anime, yet it got cancelled because of an "unexpected loss of money." I've sat through Heroes, and know a dying show when I see it. Heck, I even saw bits of West Wing and saw that the final season was there when they basically added in a sex scene between Diana and Josh (heck, two sex scenes, all in the same episode in what was obviously a ploy to get more ratings that failed). Trust me, when the show is losing ratings, especially among a target demographic where it is virtually impossible to actually lose ratings, especially to the extent the show is losing ratings at, it definitely means the end of the show is near. It also doesn't help that Nintendo itself isn't doing too hot either.

    @Anna: Problem is that Pokémon airs at a time where kids wouldn't have much scheduling problems (for example, school, their main concern). And I have watched a few episodes of AG and DP (heck, I even made an effort to actually watch the latter from the beginning, yet it was just so bad I simply couldn't continue. I had to stop at the Roarke episode). And another problem is that even if kids move on from the show, there are plenty more to replace them anyways, so that shouldn't impact the ratings either with increasing or decreasing, yet it is becoming clear, at least from AG and DP's ratings on Pokeani, that the show is actually losing ratings (They bounced back up at the beginning of DP, but not to the level of AG's, and it steadily decreased from that point onward), and considering the mess that was BW, they've probably got even less ratings now than back then. Also, I just checked the timetable for the Animes on TVTokyo's time slot, and kids definitely can watch Pokémon with little scheduling problems (only things I can potentially think of are Little League or sporting events that occur on that day), and heck, some CBS shows actually do well at that time period (7:00-7:30).
     
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    Aquacorde

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    It's not really that kids are watching other things, it's that they're using other mediums entirely and therefore parents get control of the TV. Would a kid today realistically choose to watch anything on TV at a set time when they knew they could a) get it online if they really want and b) have access to do pretty much anything else on the internet at any point in time? Nah man. Like I said, the only indication ratings give is how many people are watching what at specific times. By the way, did you know Japan 's birth rates are sharply declining and have been since around '75? That means there are less people in the demographic entirely. There are not actually "plenty more" like look at these drops holy man. So others will take up the "audience" slots, and those people probs won't be watching Pokémon.

    Also if you got to Roark in DP you got to... episode 15... congrats man. Ain't everyone know by now that the first bit of a season gonna be rocky as hell? There's some fantastic stuff happening in DP but of course you aint gonna see the greatest stuff at the first gym.
     
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    It's not really that kids are watching other things, it's that they're using other mediums entirely and therefore parents get control of the TV. Would a kid today realistically choose to watch anything on TV at a set time when they knew they could a) get it online if they really want and b) have access to do pretty much anything else on the internet at any point in time? Nah man. Like I said, the only indication ratings give is how many people are watching what at specific times. By the way, did you know Japan 's birth rates are sharply declining and have been since around '75? That means there are less people in the demographic entirely. There are not actually "plenty more" like look at these drops holy man. So others will take up the "audience" slots, and those people probs won't be watching Pokémon.

    Also if you got to Roark in DP you got to... episode 15... congrats man. Ain't everyone know by now that the first bit of a season gonna be rocky as hell? There's some fantastic stuff happening in DP but of course you aint gonna see the greatest stuff at the first gym.

    NCIS also has viewers online (heck, CBS even streams episodes online, and that's not even getting into Netflix, Hulu, TV.com, and the like), yet that had absolutely no negative impact on its ratings at all (it's still a huge ratings hit, with the 11th Season having a rating scale of between 15-20 million viewers). And CBS is basically America's equivalent of TVTokyo. If NCIS can pull it off (and BTW, America's having a huge birth decline due to Roe v. Wade), Japan can pull off larger numbers and not decline in ratings. Maybe Japan's birth declinations are a factor, but for some reason, very rarely do people actually report on that on the news (I know that the news frequently reported on floodings in India even when they are frequent due to the death toll, the tsunamis, various disasters, war coverage, drug abuses, political scandals, cheating landlords, fires, you name it, some even being outside of America, and something like Japan's declining births is definitely something newsworthy. They may have covered it recently on ProLifeNews, which is good, actually since it's being spoken somewhere, but not much elsewhere.). I guess that is a reason besides declining quality, now that I think about it, though I'm surprised they don't cover this on the news.
     

    Aquacorde

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    1) NCIS has quickly accessible legal streaming which continues to contribute to how much money the show is making. While it does not factor into the Nielsen rating, something that does is the fact that NCIS appeals to a much larger and completely different demographic than Pokémon. The two are very much incomparable.
    2) CBS and TVTokyo are also incomparable due to demographics; TVTokyo has major kid-focused programming and CBS is geared toward adults. Now I really shouldn't need to point this out, but kids' programmes are generally geared at ages 0-14 while adult programmes usually catch viewers ages 15-55. That's a hell of a bigger pool to get ratings from.
    3) America's birth rates have been ~2 per woman for the last 40 years and actually increased around 1990 to plateau at above 2 until 2009. The decline has been mostly attributed to safer sex practices and a decrease in teen pregnancy rather than access to abortion- by the way, there is still a huge lack of safe and available places to go for that and honestly it's hardly anyone's first choice. Please take that discussion to D&D for further commentary.
    4) Whether it's reported on the news or not, it's still a thing that happened. I'm fairly confident you live in the USA and like. When has the US ever been good at reporting on international non-dramatic news. Or even accurately reporting dramatic news lol. Again, please take that subject over to D&D for further discussion.

    5) This thread is a discussion of writer and dub voice actor competence in relation to the Pokémon Anime only. If comparisons are what help you determine quality, please find ones relevant to the show. Otherwise, compare the show to itself. So many people forget that Pokémon can be discussed about in relation to itself- there have been many eras in this show that's been on for seventeen years. We all know that AG had problems balancing a larger main cast, and BW had problems developing characters. Let's talk about if those issues are getting better or worse, and how much trust you have in the current team.
     
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    After reading last few posts, i mean if we examine pokemon anime on individual basis by each series and what they bring with themselves than well anime isn't bad persay. It can have fun, diverse battles, interesting outlook on world building, culture and new places waiting to be visited. Good humor, interesting interactions between characters and sometime if writers have their good day well executed plot forming story introduced in certain region.

    However my main concern is quality of this show when going bwyond this point of view and determining just what has pokemon anime accomplished in longer run? How much of quality it has and appeal when taking look at full picture, entire series as whole?

    It accomplished very scarse, almost nonexistant continuity with events and development accumulated in previous regions being ignored whenever new saga starts not having on going, consistent story which builds on itself., Builded friendship and moral values this show promotes just staying on empty words never acknowledging impact and importance people played in Ash life or close bond and leve of understanding existing between them maintaining that relationships.

    Prospect of main protagonist using previous skills and acquired knowledge to his advantage pushing story forward to more concrete character development being all but muted seeming like it has no future due to stagnation and repetitive cycle in which series have found themselves in.

    And as icing on the cake dozen of abandoned and replaced Ash travel companions(May, Misty, Brock, Max etc fading into oblivion)leaving their stories unresolved, potential to build on story and do continuation of started growth made with them wasted and ignored depriving us of chance to ever see update. Their struggles and hard work bringing them somewhere in end and opportunity to have people enjoy in their lively quirks and enjoyable traits seeing follow up on dreams, unique pokemon and impact they left on anime. Never getting any recognition for influence they left on story, pokemon past and Ash character maintaining contact.
    Like all was done in vain not meaning anything in end.


    Something i personally consider to be very bad strategy in planning out and writing for some show. Because it effectively alienates older fans and indirectly stops more productive flux of new incomers toward anime discouraging new generations from growing attached to show and characters netting yourself loyal fandom.

    You could make a point how producers of pokemon seerues know what they are doing in sense of making that way pokemon series more accessible to younger generatons so that they wont feel left out through repetition, restarts and burying older characters forever in past.

    But what about older generations which want to comeback toward anime, revive their interest and get themselves reminded of their childhood days? By refusing to reuse older characters, push main protagonist forward and have continuity based story in a lot of ways, your only dismissing the loyal followers of the series,and making sure that they will abandon this show and franchise. Both from marketing and writing standpoint that's not most optimal move to maintain people interest, have them remain loyal and invest more of their time and money onto franchise.

    Meaning constant decrease of pokemon watchers, less money and potential customers to buy products but spreading of bad word of mouth about pokemon as well damaging its reputation and credibility. Since disappointed viewers will only share their experiences to others resulting in potential new incomers refusing to tune into such show. Losing your target audience that way as well.
     

    Lizardo

    Public Enemy
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    However my main concern is quality of this show when going bwyond this point of view and determining just what has pokemon anime accomplished in longer run? How much of quality it has and appeal when taking look at full picture, entire series as whole?

    It accomplished very scarse, almost nonexistant continuity with events and development accumulated in previous regions being ignored whenever new saga starts not having on going, consistent story which builds on itself., Builded friendship and moral values this show promotes just staying on empty words never acknowledging impact and importance people played in Ash life or close bond and leve of understanding existing between them maintaining that relationships.
    I don't think this is how we're supposed to look it at it. The anime isn't made up of one show, but five of them. And while there is an acknowledged continuity that connects each series, they're for the most part working to be self-contained and accessible on their own merits. The writers will occasionally throw older fans a few bones by having older characters and Pokémon cameo, or referencing events from other shows, but the main idea is to focus on a new audience with an essentially new show. Fans (and I include myself in this) often make the mistake of looking at Pocket Monsters as one show catered towards a single fanbase, and base their expectations around that, when that's not what the writers are aiming to do. If we're going to criticize the writers and call them incompetent, then we need to do so based on the material they actually write and not the material we wish they would write.

    And I think your complaints about Kasumi, Takeshi, Haruka, and the others getting replaced unfortunately fits into that second category. Their shows were ended and their characters were written off, absolving the writers of any obligation to continue with them in a new series. We can criticize the writers for how those characters were written while they were around, but we can't say they were just left incomplete. That's an instance where fans allow their hopes to get the better of them and come down on the writers unfairly for it.
     

    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
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    Declining fertility in certain countries is most certainly not due to abortion laws. :P Having kids is a CHOICE. Just like how it's a CHOICE for women to have their own lives, enjoy sex without risk of pregnancy and delay pregnancy until later in life. To keep the population's number the same, each couple needs two kids and it's not that easy to take care of two kids in the modern world.

    Now back to the anime, the writers have been writing the same episodes for more than a decade. I think it was only in Best Wishes that they began to try something different with Team Rocket. People get bored of it, simple as that. Still, I probably shouldn't be ranting about the show since I'm way too old to be entertained by it anymore. I remember that, up until I was 15, I thought it was awesome to wait until my favorite Pokémon appeared on the show. Nowadays, that kind of magic simply doesn't exist. And especially because some Pokémon like Hydreigon which is supposed to be rare became filler fodder. I mean, back in the Orange Islands, a Dragonite was something special. It was the biggest challenge Ash ever faced, and took down half his team before being defeated by Pikachu. Now they give a ****ing Dragonite to Iris as if it was nothing. Even in the ****ing game it's difficult to have a Dragonite right off the bat (only in Unova games you could find it in the wild, and it was obscenely rare). The aura is lost.
     
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    Declining fertility in certain countries is most certainly not due to abortion laws. :P Having kids is a CHOICE. Just like how it's a CHOICE for women to have their own lives, enjoy sex without risk of pregnancy and delay pregnancy until later in life. To keep the population's number the same, each couple needs two kids and it's not that easy to take care of two kids in the modern world.

    Actually, abortion is indeed the cause of declining fertility, not to mention breast cancer. In fact, medical studies more than confirm it. China, which is probably the biggest aborter of children right now, actually has more old people than young people thanks in large part to their two-child policy. Heck, Abortion is even specifically used for population control (in fact, I think it was Marquis de Sade who first proposed that in one of his philosophical essays). Yes, you can argue that having kids is a choice. However, eating bleach is also a choice, and I doubt you'll see many people actually wanting to do that. Heck, some of the abortion laws were even founded on lies (like Doe v. Bolton in Oklahoma, for example, who was pressured by the ACLU to make a case supporting abortion on false premises, yet when it was passed, she fled Oklahoma specifically to avoid having to undergo an abortion), However, this isn't part of the topic, so I'll stop.

    And I think your complaints about Kasumi, Takeshi, Haruka, and the others getting replaced unfortunately fits into that second category. Their shows were ended and their characters were written off, absolving the writers of any obligation to continue with them in a new series. We can criticize the writers for how those characters were written while they were around, but we can't say they were just left incomplete. That's an instance where fans allow their hopes to get the better of them and come down on the writers unfairly for it.

    Brock, May and the others at least either already had completed their goals or otherwise were still implied to be pursuing their goals. Misty got neither, being forced into a gym all because, in-universe, her sisters had left for a cruise for three months, and they were too broken by their third loss in a row (and by Gary, no less) to even attempt to regain control of the gym. I only ask that they actually have Misty pursue her stated goal of being a Water Pokémon Master (and let's face it, when they force her to abort her goal for something she made pretty clear in her appearances afterwards, if not in her words, certainly by her actions, that she didn't even want, they really made a big mistake in regards to how they removed her character, and thus her character can quite objectively, factually, with no hint of any opinion whatsoever, be stated as being left incomplete, even you have to admit that), and out-of-universe, the writers and producers only viewed the female characters as being sacks-of-meat for audiences to be aroused by (aka, viewing them as eyecandy), and thus felt Misty's use for that purpose was outlived (and BTW, the writers and director definitely deserve the fans coming down on them in that instance considering the former director flat out admitted that this was the reason behind Misty and May's removal in that PokeBeach interview, so in that case, that actually was fair, multiple series or not).

    And most series usually have a bit more to actually distinguish shows, like how Dragon Ball Z had Goku being an adult, or how Digimon actually replacing the main cast frequently. Pokémon doesn't do that especially with Ash. If the writers are going to make it a different series, they may as well make sure to actually treat it as a different series by actually replacing Ash and Team Rocket.
     

    Wobbu

    bunger bunger bunger bunger
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    This is not a thread about abortion. All further comments about it will be removed.

    If we're going to criticize the writers and call them incompetent, then we need to do so based on the material they actually write and not the material we wish they would write.

    Lizardo brings up fair advice, much like a couple of other people.

    Saying that Misty's story was unfinished while the newer characters had more development implies that the writers are more competent now than they were during OS, and that their competence has grown ever since.
     
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    I don't think this is how we're supposed to look it at it. The anime isn't made up of one show, but five of them. And while there is an acknowledged continuity that connects each series, they're for the most part working to be self-contained and accessible on their own merits. The writers will occasionally throw older fans a few bones by having older characters and Pokémon cameo, or referencing events from other shows, but the main idea is to focus on a new audience with an essentially new show. Fans (and I include myself in this) often make the mistake of looking at Pocket Monsters as one show catered towards a single fanbase, and base their expectations around that, when that's not what the writers are aiming to do. If we're going to criticize the writers and call them incompetent, then we need to do so based on the material they actually write and not the material we wish they would write.

    I see lot of "Appeal to Authority" used around here. But here is catch: people in charge who write for some show and make decisions, doesn't necessarily mean they will make best decisions and deliver most productive way to push product on market.

    As long pokemon is based on one central protagonist (Ash)revolving around his journey of becoming pokemon master,treated like apparently one big journey set in same timeline and continmuity than this series cannot be really viewed as different shows. But one entity which does well pretty disappointing job as far as progression of characters, style of writing, utilization of plot and overall atmosphere of anime goes.

    We follow progression of main star constantly being stuck in never ending cycle of starting from scratch with each new saga never winning league, building on his experience and breaking new ground toward his master career which includes much more to be done than just winning one regional tournament.

    Rather than have him go through deeper,more substantial growth exploring more about his past and family, fact how he is viewed as special/chosen one as portrayed in Ho Oh appearances and movies, along with going through more complex tasks like challenging E4, passing chain of events similar to BF serving as benchmarks through which he could come closer toward ultimate destination making people intrigued in his progress again.

    We have inconsistent development scattered all over the place, broken continuity which in general dont maintains contact with past generations, characters, events and circumstances which left mark on main protagonist using past as vector on which future is created and developed. Etc.

    Thats not recipe to bring beliavable and consistent story. Sense of progression pervated with satisfying character development, original plots and surrounding. As well story which has brand created around it which would not only appealm to younger generations but older genertions as well. Feeling like theyre not being abandoned, how their devotion toward anime and contributio toward ratings, sales and popularity was acknowledged and rewarded in some way.

    Resulting in stronger popularity of pokemon series, loyal fanbase which extends beyond just target audience and higher reputation of series themselves being praised and honored for higher quality than its case right now. Which wouldn't be bad idea since it could open gateway toward bigger profit, income of money and higher ratings by such move invoking desire of those who want to relieve their childhood and have anime which woluld have something for everyone.

    This is formula under which pokemon anime was initially written with Takeshi Shudo who did construction of Original series wanting to have family oriented show aimed toward not just kids, but teenagers, adults and even elders. Anime which has deep and well constructed stoiry with certain maturity and depth brought into it(something which could be noticed in his style of writing), strong unity prevailing between Ash and companions written in mind of being crucial and irreplaceable remaining relevant to series as whole. That is until those at higher instances rejected his ideas with game promotion taking advantage over stronger plot and development.
    Both could have been achieved, but they didn't want to spend more money and energy than needed, but just enough to keep show going.

    Evaluating each sagas individually pokemon isn't bad show its prettx good for what it does, but when looking at it like one anime set in same universe like its presented at times, than well im sorry but its pretty underwhelming for me.

    And I think your complaints about Kasumi, Takeshi, Haruka, and the others getting replaced unfortunately fits into that second category. Their shows were ended and their characters were written off, absolving the writers of any obligation to continue with them in a new series. We can criticize the writers for how those characters were written while they were around, but we can't say they were just left incomplete. That's an instance where fans allow their hopes to get the better of them and come down on the writers unfairly for it.

    Every story needs to have its prelude, tangle, climax and denuaement. None of replaced traveling compaions reached full potential of their development, progression toward dreams, exploration of their fears, dilemmas, ambitions and background. To the point of further continuation not being possible or just coming of as "beating dead horse" adding more on character and plots which surround him than its needed.

    Spoiler:


    Granted conclusion of someone story doesn't require everyone achieving their dreams or everything being fleshed out regarding them. But going by what critics and academy writing teaches, in order to receive closure either plots are required to be closed down with purpose behind someone journey being fulfilled,or there need to be provided mechanisms which could allow for conclusion for someone story in future.

    Some characters developed more, some developed less(all of this is relative though), Since Misty may have developed less goal wise than others but in emotional and personality sense she changed just as much as May maturing alot.

    But thats beside the point because at end of the day everyone was left unfinished, with some simply having more room left for development than another.

    Pokemon series works on principle of introducing characters in main cast, starting job with their pootential character development, goals they pursue, ambitions and interests keeping them until new games are released. After that they are dumped away in middle of development with stsff not caring about unfinished wirk, unresolved goals, fears, flaws, accumulated skills and certain level of maturity companions may reach to allow for deeper, more constructive development. Dealing with more refined challenges and demanding tasks needed to overcome to reach final destination.

    In nutshell they give viewers gist of their growth and opportunity to get attached to this characters, relate themselves to them and keep in excitement of seeing done more with them. But follow up, sequel to what was initially started never happens since once replaced character gets one cameo in next generation he/she is forever erased from anime universe.

    Writers can get away with it because of new kids coming in, but for anyone who watch anime for more than one generation thats nothing but sign of careless writing. That said as TV industry constantly develops and new modern trends are introduced, sooner or later those in charge would be compelled to reevaluate their current approach toward this show changing something on more significant scale. Especially in such long on going anime like pokemon where new generation of fans simply arenpt enough to secure success and lucrative popularity in longer run due to so many different, versatile anime to follow nowadays with pokemon facing much, much tougher competition to compete with and fight for people attention span.
     

    Lizardo

    Public Enemy
  • 290
    Posts
    10
    Years
    • Seen Aug 18, 2016
    I see lot of "Appeal to Authority" used around here. But here is catch: people in charge who write for some show and make decisions, doesn't necessarily mean they will make best decisions and deliver most productive way to push product on market.
    The writers have made some terrible decisions over all five of their series, that's not deniable. The idea here is that when criticizing the writers for the product they make, one should do so based on the product that they're actually making. Too many fans get an idea of what a show should be and come down hard on the show that actually is because it doesn't live up to that ideal. If we're going to criticize them and their show for their handling of Kasumi, we should do so based on the fact that they had 279 episodes with her and couldn't tell her story well. We shouldn't criticize the writing of AG, DP, BW, and XY for not continuing with her when it's only one series (OS) that messed up.

    And while it is true the writers don't always make the best decisions, that doesn't mean fans do either.

    As long pokemon is based on one central protagonist (Ash)revolving around his journey of becoming pokemon master,treated like apparently one big journey set in same timeline and continmuity than this series cannot be really viewed as different shows. But one entity which does well pretty disappointing job as far as progression of characters, style of writing, utilization of plot and overall atmosphere of anime goes.
    Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Rises are different movies. That they all center around Bruce Wayne and continue his story through all of them doesn't change that. The same concept applies with OS, AG, DP, BW, and XY. Just like those three Batman movies vary in their quality, so do the different Pocket Monsters shows. And just as those are different movies set in one timeline and revolving on one character, these are different shows set in one timeline and revolving on two characters: Satoshi and Pikachu.

    We follow progression of main star constantly being stuck in never ending cycle of starting from scratch with each new saga never winning league, building on his experience and breaking new ground toward his master career which includes much more to be done than just winning one regional tournament.

    Rather than have him go through deeper,more substantial growth exploring more about his past and family, fact how he is viewed as special/chosen one as portrayed in Ho Oh appearances and movies, along with going through more complex tasks like challenging E4, passing chain of events similar to BF serving as benchmarks through which he could come closer toward ultimate destination making people intrigued in his progress again.

    We have inconsistent development scattered all over the place, broken continuity which in general dont maintains contact with past generations, characters, events and circumstances which left mark on main protagonist using past as vector on which future is created and developed. Etc.
    In this much, I partially agree with you. The unfortunate reality is that the anime shows adapt the games and much like the games follows the same basic concept of the main character, for which Satoshi is a proxy, getting to a Pokémon League. But that doesn't mean new shows can't find a way to make his journey interesting, or even just retire the character so as to do the storyline with someone else - just as the games do. That the writers don't really do more with Satoshi, and have in fact been doing even less with him as time goes on, is a flaw of theirs.

    But let's also be fair, there have been occasions where the franchise has done this: Jouto would sometimes bring up his general improvement as a trainer; the earlier parts of AG contrasted his experience with Haruka, who was a rookie; DP introduced Shinji as a rival who challenged his core beliefs as a trainer. None of them take it as far as I would have liked, but these examples do show that Satoshi can be used in more entertaining ways without ruining the self-contained nature of the individual series.

    There is a lot about Satoshi and his journey that one can find fault with. But again, that should be done with the material that's actually on screen to criticize. If we're going to call the writers incompetent because of Satoshi and the way they've written him, let's criticize them for the character's lack of nuance even by the standards of Pocket Monsters, or for a journey that's becoming less and less entertaining, or for the fact that they're often pretty inconsistent with his growth.

    Let's not criticize them for reasons like his past not being explored, or for older characters like Kasumi not showing up, because neither of those things were ever even hinted at as plot points meant to be explored. Those are also perfect examples of fans wanting something out of the show they were never promised, not getting it, and blaming the writers because they raised their hopes and got them dashed.

    Evaluating each sagas individually pokemon isn't bad show its prettx good for what it does, but when looking at it like one anime set in same universe like its presented at times, than well im sorry but its pretty underwhelming for me.
    Well you're free to look at it however you want, I guess. But that doesn't change that these are separate shows, as much as the trilogy of movies I mentioned earlier are separate movies. They are written as mostly self-contained material. The one constant in each of them are Satoshi, Pikachu, and the Rocket trio - all of whom I agree have had their problems in being consistent and remaining entertaining as time goes on. There are many things one can call the writers incompetent for, and while I don't think they are, I'm not going to argue with people who do - at least, not for reasons that actually take into account the material they've put on screen to be evaluated. But I don't believe they should be called incompetent for reasons like older characters not coming back to new shows, or Satoshi's past not being explored further in depth, because nothing in the new shows call for it.

    Every story needs to have its prelude, tangle, climax and denuaement. None of replaced traveling compaions reached full potential of their development, progression toward dreams, exploration of their fears, dilemmas, ambitions and background.
    There is always going to be something more one can do with a character, and I get the impression that's what you really mean when you say none of these characters ever reached their full potential. The important thing is making sure that a satisfactory story is told, something I think AG and DP did well with characters like Haruka, Hikari, and Shinji. Admittedly, you have others like Kasumi and Takeshi, who didn't fare very well. But that's something that should be held against only against the writing in the shows they appeared in, and shouldn't be used to tarnish all five of them.

    None of this is to say the writers and their shows are perfect. They really aren't and have never been. This is to say that us fans have a way of allowing our expectations to get away from us and come down hard on the writers when faced with the reality that our vision of the franchise isn't always shared by the writers. We're not the ones in charge and, contrary to what seems to be a popular fandom belief in general, we're not the ones who get to make the decisions. Our role is to evaluate what's put on screen and judge whether it's good or not, and part of that means recognizing what these shows are attempting to accomplish and to critique it by that. I truly believe that's where a lot of these claims of the writers' incompetence come from.
     
  • 2,688
    Posts
    19
    Years
    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    The writers have made some terrible decisions over all five of their series, that's not deniable. The idea here is that when criticizing the writers for the product they make, one should do so based on the product that they're actually making. Too many fans get an idea of what a show should be and come down hard on the show that actually is because it doesn't live up to that ideal. If we're going to criticize them and their show for their handling of Kasumi, we should do so based on the fact that they had 279 episodes with her and couldn't tell her story well. We shouldn't criticize the writing of AG, DP, BW, and XY for not continuing with her when it's only one series (OS) that messed up.

    And while it is true the writers don't always make the best decisions, that doesn't mean fans do either.

    They also messed up with her in AG, specifically how they handled her departure (and believe me, considering the hints that she doesn't even like running the gym, that is something that is indeed tarnishable even in AG, at least), so yes, the writers do deserve the blame for their handling of Misty especially upon her departure, and yes, they fully deserve the criticism. And no, we fans did not simply have false expectations, as the show made pretty clear more than a few times the things we criticized.



    Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Rises are different movies. That they all center around Bruce Wayne and continue his story through all of them doesn't change that. The same concept applies with OS, AG, DP, BW, and XY. Just like those three Batman movies vary in their quality, so do the different Pocket Monsters shows. And just as those are different movies set in one timeline and revolving on one character, these are different shows set in one timeline and revolving on two characters: Satoshi and Pikachu.

    Except unlike the Dark Knight Trilogy, where we actually do see Bruce Wayne develop as a character throughout the films, Ash barely undergoes any development at all, or heck, even retain any experience. Probably the closest he's come to actually developing was in Johto and Sinnoh, and that's only because of the leagues (which even that only has two rank increases in so far five regions he's participated in, plus staying static in one region and being demoted in one region). Not to mention the Dark Knight Trilogy actually does reference each installment somewhat decently, which is unlike most of the Pokémon anime series where they barely even reference much about the past and in fact more than a few times conflict with it.

    And honestly, when Ash and Pikachu remain the main characters, constantly, with Team Rocket as the main antagonists, and the entire crux of the show actually depends on continuity (after all, how can Ash reasonably be pursuing Leagues to become the world's greatest Pokémon Master and retain his rank if each Anime is self-contained and thus not in continuity with each other), the anime franchise, between its various series, is not "self-contained," period, as each franchise being "self-contained" would imply that they lack any continuity between each other at all, or at best give occasional nods, which includes not keeping any of the original cast (in other words, they have to replace Ash and Pikachu, heck, literally everyone in the cast just to "start fresh" and have it be self-contained from the next show). The Next Generation series of the Star Trek franchise is self-contained, and has a completely new cast from the original Star Trek, even taking place at such a time distance to all but ensure none of the original cast could reasonably return, aside from possibly Spock who is relegated to a cameo character at best. Another good example of a self-contained series is the Final Fantasy franchise, which has a completely different cast in each installment, and a completely different setting as well. The closest they've come to any continuity between ANY of the games is Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy X-2, where there was a kid named Shinra in the latter game that, according to Word of God, actually founded Shinra from Final Fantasy VII as well as Gilgamesh's cameos in some of the games after Final Fantasy V that specifically allude to his sentencing to the Void (and BTW, that's not counting the crossover fighting subseries Dissidia, which even that gave the main characters laser-guided amnesia for reasons that were plot-important). Heck, the Pokémon GAMES do a heck of a better job actually being self-contained than the actual anime, having a different protagonist every time, and a clearly different plot for each game while there are occasional references to the other installments without it directly impacting the actual plot of the current game, like how DP referenced the Red Gyarados incident in Gold and Silver in the beginning of the game, only to reveal it wasn't actually in the same region. I think the closest they've come to actually heavily referencing a previous game to the extent of being an actual sequel is Pokémon Gold and Silver (since it heavily referenced the events of Pokémon Red, Green/Blue and to a lesser extent Yellow), as well as more obviously Black 2 and White 2 to Black and White.

    In this much, I partially agree with you. The unfortunate reality is that the anime shows adapt the games and much like the games follows the same basic concept of the main character, for which Satoshi is a proxy, getting to a Pokémon League. But that doesn't mean new shows can't find a way to make his journey interesting, or even just retire the character so as to do the storyline with someone else - just as the games do. That the writers don't really do more with Satoshi, and have in fact been doing even less with him as time goes on, is a flaw of theirs.

    But let's also be fair, there have been occasions where the franchise has done this: Jouto would sometimes bring up his general improvement as a trainer; the earlier parts of AG contrasted his experience with Haruka, who was a rookie; DP introduced Shinji as a rival who challenged his core beliefs as a trainer. None of them take it as far as I would have liked, but these examples do show that Satoshi can be used in more entertaining ways without ruining the self-contained nature of the individual series.

    There is a lot about Satoshi and his journey that one can find fault with. But again, that should be done with the material that's actually on screen to criticize. If we're going to call the writers incompetent because of Satoshi and the way they've written him, let's criticize them for the character's lack of nuance even by the standards of Pocket Monsters, or for a journey that's becoming less and less entertaining, or for the fact that they're often pretty inconsistent with his growth.

    Let's not criticize them for reasons like his past not being explored, or for older characters like Kasumi not showing up, because neither of those things were ever even hinted at as plot points meant to be explored. Those are also perfect examples of fans wanting something out of the show they were never promised, not getting it, and blaming the writers because they raised their hopes and got them dashed.

    At least in regards to me, my complaints about Misty are indeed related to stuff actually occurring on-screen in the animes, possibly even actual comments made by some former staff members. For example, throughout Johto, heck, possibly even the Orange Islands, Misty made very clear that her goal is to become the greatest Water Pokémon Master, and considering the Whirl Cup and the implications of how that directly impacts her goal, that is something that was made very clear onscreen. We also see that Misty was forcibly removed from her goal because her sisters basically left the gym unattended for a three month cruise, plus their being broken birds anyways, and her reappearances in the actual show, heck, even her Pokémon Specials made pretty clear that she did NOT like running the gym at all (heck, in her final full appearance in the anime franchise, not counting the 10th anniversary special, she even delayed having to return to the gym as long as she possibly could, which IS a pretty huge indicator that she hated having to run the gym and would want any excuse to get away from it as long as possible). Keep in mind that the latter bits are from AG and thus yes, they most certainly are to blame for it in that series as well as the Original Series.

    Also, they at least had Tracey actually accomplish his goal, and Gary at least gave up his goal willingly in favor of another goal, even Brock did that by DP as well. Not to mention May, Dawn, and Iris (and Iris is especially notable since she, like Misty, also was a character who pursued being the greatest among being a Pokémon Master of a specific type [Dragons in her case], yet actually was allowed to pursue her goal without being forced into a gym) at least had the luxury of actually being able to continuing to pursue their goals. Misty never even got that, period, and that is a definite, justifiable gripe. DP may be a case of the fans expectations being false, but BW isn't, especially when the writers most likely are fully aware of the Pokémon World Conference, which, BTW had all the Gym Leaders from all the regions up to that point, Misty included, and considering they view the anime as effectively being an advertising agent for the game, plus Takeshi Shudo's shame about how they replaced Misty at the very least, they actually had a golden opportunity to actually rectify their earlier error and actually have an arc dedicated to the World Conference, and even give an opportunity for Misty to actually pursue her true goal of becoming a Water Pokémon Master, a goal she most certainly by her behavior would rather pursue than run a gym. It would have killed two birds with one stone, basically give actual advertising to the games, and at the same time bring back a beloved character and even give her true closure. Instead, they just had a Junior version that wasn't even that good and basically skipped it, despite it actually being something from the games (which advertising stuff from the games is pretty much the entire point of the Anime, which basically means they really should have gone for something like the Pokémon World Conference. Now, if Misty was depicted as actually, willingly deciding to become a Gym Leader by her own accord, was actually shown to enjoy the job better than her prior goal, and its made very clear that she actually changed her goal, many of us wouldn't have that problem, but that's not what it was. May, Dawn, and Iris may not have developed as fully as they should have been, but at least they were given the opportunity to actually pursue their dreams. What about Misty? She can't pursue her dreams, and wasn't even allowed to willingly change her goals, and based on her appearances in AG, both in-series and even her Hosos, she doesn't even like running the gym. The most logical solution, something literally anyone can naturally deduce is that they make sure to actually fix it by giving her another appearance, and this time make sure she actually leaves for her goal rather than being forced back into the gym again. Even you have to agree with that.

    Heck, even that is eclipsed with how writers basically screwed Misty over for Brock with his hoso, heck, even AG itself. Basically, Misty has to run the gym, not just because her sisters basically left it unattended for three months, but had the PIA discovered it was unattended, the gym would be shut down no questions asked (and in the Hoso itself, it was made clear that the Gym would be shut down if the gym was unsafe, unclean, and uncool). Considering that Pewter Gym somehow passed the inspection despite the disaster Lola nearly had in store for the gym with her terrible redecorating projects, not to mention nearly getting a lot of the gym's rock types killed by her extremely stupid decision to convert their training holes into a swimming pool, both of which violated the safety and coolness factors (both of which would have ensured that Pewter Gym would've ended up shut down even with the gym leader being present, due to failing two-thirds, maybe half of the inspection, even without the zero-tolerance policy enacted, as made very clear in Misty's first hoso), and then it got even WORSE in AG where not only did Forrest pretty much blow it regarding his being tasked with actually running the gym instead of Lola and Flint by letting his mom violate her promise of not redecorating the gym by not only doing so again (even though, being the gym leader, he honestly should kick her out rather than let her tarnish the gym again), but this time with even worse decorations than before (it looked like the gym was struck with a massive vandalization attempt), and with the help of shady painters (implied to be Team Rocket) who then bribed her and Flint with plane tickets specifically to burglarize the Gym of their Pokémon, but he doesn't even attempt to fight them at all (which, you know, is the primary job of being a gym leader), instead resulting in Ash and Brock having to deal with them. And despite those events that basically endangered the gym, almost to criminal negligence levels, Brock STILL doesn't take back the gym, despite the fact that it should be obvious even to him that he's pretty much the only one who actually can keep the gym even functional instead of dysfunctional, instead selfishly, irresponsibly continuing his journey with Ash, and hitching a ride with a trucker, among other things. Honestly, why didn't they force Brock to run the gym? Honestly, forget how May was depicted, forget the terrible Gym battles in AG, forget the bad league turnout, heck, forgetting even for a second the very reason they started girlswapping was for eyecandy purposes, this basically is tied with the in-universe reason for Misty's removal as being the absolute worst, poorly-done part of the show.

    Well you're free to look at it however you want, I guess. But that doesn't change that these are separate shows, as much as the trilogy of movies I mentioned earlier are separate movies. They are written as mostly self-contained material. The one constant in each of them are Satoshi, Pikachu, and the Rocket trio - all of whom I agree have had their problems in being consistent and remaining entertaining as time goes on. There are many things one can call the writers incompetent for, and while I don't think they are, I'm not going to argue with people who do - at least, not for reasons that actually take into account the material they've put on screen to be evaluated. But I don't believe they should be called incompetent for reasons like older characters not coming back to new shows, or Satoshi's past not being explored further in depth, because nothing in the new shows call for it.

    Again, The Dark Knight Trilogy is not "separate movies" at all, at least not in the way you are describing it, as they are continuity heavy and they actually have the characters develop, something that's lacking in the Pokémon anime. Heck, The Dark Knight Rises in particular is probably unwatchable without some knowledge of Batman Begins, as they heavily reference the events of that movie, especially the League of Shadows and their former attack on Gotham, heck, Ra's al Ghul's death even being a major focal point, and even The Dark Knight gets a lot of references, especially Harvey Dent's death as well as Rachel Dawes' death, even Alfred burning the letter and hiding the contents from Bruce Wayne (and even the Joker is indirectly mentioned a few times, and most certainly got a mention in the novelization of the Dark Knight Rises where he is supposedly the only inmate at Arkham Asylum, and even then its rumored he escaped by the time Bane took over Gotham). A far better example of a Batman movie franchise that is self-contained with each installment would be Batman and Batman Returns, to the extent that Tim Burton even rewrote the latter film specifically to keep as few references to the previous film as humanly possible (the only thread to the first film being the brief mention of Vicki Vale leaving Bruce Wayne due to his dangerous lifestyle as Batman).

    There is always going to be something more one can do with a character, and I get the impression that's what you really mean when you say none of these characters ever reached their full potential. The important thing is making sure that a satisfactory story is told, something I think AG and DP did well with characters like Haruka, Hikari, and Shinji. Admittedly, you have others like Kasumi and Takeshi, who didn't fare very well. But that's something that should be held against only against the writing in the shows they appeared in, and shouldn't be used to tarnish all five of them.

    None of this is to say the writers and their shows are perfect. They really aren't and have never been. This is to say that us fans have a way of allowing our expectations to get away from us and come down hard on the writers when faced with the reality that our vision of the franchise isn't always shared by the writers. We're not the ones in charge and, contrary to what seems to be a popular fandom belief in general, we're not the ones who get to make the decisions. Our role is to evaluate what's put on screen and judge whether it's good or not, and part of that means recognizing what these shows are attempting to accomplish and to critique it by that. I truly believe that's where a lot of these claims of the writers' incompetence come from.


    Yeah, and in regards to Misty, the problem with her removal actually extended to AG thanks in large part to how they characterized her dislike of her running the gym in the specials, heck, even in her few appearances in AG itself (especially the three-episode arc at the beginning of Battle Frontier), and even BW, considering they actually had a golden opportunity to actually rectify that mistake (and believe me, even the writers, or at least Takeshi Shudo, viewed how she was removed as being a big mistake) with the Pokémon World Conference and they blew it (and yes, they most certainly knew about that event). Keep in mind that my complaints about Misty for the most part deal with what is actually on-screen, and I think DBZ Fan has the same gripe as well. Even if all five series shouldn't be tarnished for this, the OS, AG, and BW definitely should, for the reasons cited more than a few times in this post alone.
     
  • 196
    Posts
    13
    Years
    • Seen Jan 3, 2018
    The writers have made some terrible decisions over all five of their series, that's not deniable. The idea here is that when criticizing the writers for the product they make, one should do so based on the product that they're actually making. Too many fans get an idea of what a show should be and come down hard on the show that actually is because it doesn't live up to that ideal. If we're going to criticize them and their show for their handling of Kasumi, we should do so based on the fact that they had 279 episodes with her and couldn't tell her story well. We shouldn't criticize the writing of AG, DP, BW, and XY for not continuing with her when it's only one series (OS) that messed up.
    And while it is true the writers don't always make the best decisions, that doesn't mean fans do either.

    True of a whole doesnt make true of all of its parts though.
    Not all fans created some utopian vision of what pokemon series should be like, but if writers presented this show in way that audience could get impression of something more being bound to happen than it has in reality. Than its solely writers fault for misleading their viewers in getting impression of this anime being treated differently than it has been case for past 15 years failing to live up to their standards, vectors and conflicts builded around characters and plots.

    Such as pokemon series being presented like anime which centralize around main protagonist Ash in exploring world, pursuing his goal of becoming pokemon master, introducing unknown aspects about him (like guardian aura, connection to Ho-Oh etc) going through various obstacles, struggles and temptations in attempt of achieving his dream.
    But that effort, hard work and motivation not leading anywhere leaving main protagonist stuck in "circulum vitiosus".
    You cant really expect people not wanting to see Ash character being explored more.

    Introduce concept of strong friendship and moral values, giving out impression how Ash and traveling companions will forever be friends and be there for each other. But at same time mucking down on those bonds and their legacy with such ties losing their meaning if contact with past main characters which helped build anime story and plot is forever lost and never brought up having anime with no continuity.

    Introduce traveling companions in story, flesh out their personalites, fears, dreams. Start building relationship wuth Ash and other characters. not maintaiuning series ties with history which formed narratiuve and protagonists. Just to cut everyhing in half never to be brought up again, continued and acknowledged.
    Defeating purpose behind doing any of this if it will stop to exist forever in series canon.

    Also im not one of those saying Misty story was trainwreck. On contrair i feel she was overall great character who hads lot of depth and dimensional characterization. Touching past, unique dreams of overcoming weaknesses of one pokemon specie becoming best as she can with them reaching master level. Along with changing alot in emotional sense exploring on various aspects of her personality, overcoming trauma and insecurities(like complex of inferiority and Gyarados fear). Becoming more open as person and understanding showing how behind rough , violent exterior there is compassionate, caring and lively character which because of messed up childhood and growing without parents developed image of needing to be tough, independent and headstrong.
    However at same time way writers present stories with this characters such as in Misty case simply dont meet up with requirements that you wrap them up in span of one series. Misty story was intended to gradually unfold over long period of time.

    Explanation:
    Spoiler:


    Whole issue in here stems from fact Misty was that she left prematurely leaving lot of potential unused, her story unexplored and in many ways unfinished. And well can you blame fans, for only being justifiably disappointed wanting character back and that writers finish up what they started ?
    Its logical people wanting character back if he can offer more to story, if they find him entertaining and want to see him pushed in new directions building on what was established before.

    Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Rises are different movies. That they all center around Bruce Wayne and continue his story through all of them doesn't change that. The same concept applies with OS, AG, DP, BW, and XY. Just like those three Batman movies vary in their quality, so do the different Pocket Monsters shows. And just as those are different movies set in one timeline and revolving on one character, these are different shows set in one timeline and revolving on two characters: Satoshi and Pikachu.

    One key word in here: Set in same timeline and continuity. As long pokemon show is set in same timeline having same protagonist, it is meant to represent one big journey, adventure aspect which pushes narrative and protagonist forward building on itself.

    There is a lot about Satoshi and his journey that one can find fault with. But again, that should be done with the material that's actually on screen to criticize. If we're going to call the writers incompetent because of Satoshi and the way they've written him, let's criticize them for the character's lack of nuance even by the standards of Pocket Monsters, or for a journey that's becoming less and less entertaining, or for the fact that they're often pretty inconsistent with his growth.
    Let's not criticize them for reasons like his past not being explored, or for older characters like Kasumi not showing up, because neither of those things were ever even hinted at as plot points meant to be explored. Those are also perfect examples of fans wanting something out of the show they were never promised, not getting it, and blaming the writers because they raised their hopes and got them dashed.

    It doesnt matter how much development Ash receives in region X, if in Y region that growth is going to be erased or no continuation is going to be made.
    Giving out impression how its pointless to follow someone journey anymore if there is no progression injected into it with no sign of substantual , more defined growth never being made with character you emotionaly invest into wanting him to succeed. This is coming from Ash fan.
    It doesn't matter if traveling companion in one saga will receive satisfying development, when for remainder of pokemon series that character is going to fade away in oblivion never brought up again. Depriving fans to ever enjoy in his personality, silly antics, see how much things have changed and character they like improved, recognize their existence, contribution left on story and Ash development. Along with never seeing them in action playing any relevance in show canon again with hard work, renunciation and any challenges they deal with being futile if it will never lead them anywhere with viewers being privileged to see any of that.
    All of this loses meaning and credibility if history, past events and characters which molded Ash in who he is now or their own unfinished stories and lives which shouldnt be ditched aside but recognized are erased away like they never mattered or existed. Defeating message of consistent story which builds on itself and maintaind ties with its roots, meaningful friendship and relationship which stays relevant and impacting on plot over time and anyone goal and aspirations not being erased like all effort and pain they went through was in vain rewarding them eventually.

    To you it may not be issue because you perceive this anime differently and i respect that, but to me thats one of flaws this series have.

    Other anime like Inazuma Eleven Go, Rave, One Piece, Naruto , Bakugan etc. dont do this. Both older and new characters are infiltrated within future stories and while not everyone will always get good treatment they are kept alive, relevant in some form with writers expanding on stories, explore on new aspects of their persona and life changes which affected them making it seem like previous growth and started plots about someone wont be abandoned like they were never important or part of story in first place remaining fresh and fun thx to new life added to themselves.
    Concurrently even anime which nurture tradition of reboot dont forget about their roots and origins like Digimon.

    Warning!
    Massive spoiler:
    Spoiler:


    Every long lasting franchise pays attention to its roots, characters, plots and era which defined some show giving it recognizable appeal and identity. It seeks for ways of catering to target audience, but also not forgetting about older fans rewarding them for loyalty and contribution left on franchise and show giving them unexpected surprises and something to keep themselves invested into staying tuned into show.
    But Pokemon? Not really and when it does its usually just throwaway mention once in a blue moon.

    There is always going to be something more one can do with a character, and I get the impression that's what you really mean when you say none of these characters ever reached their full potential. The important thing is making sure that a satisfactory story is told, something I think AG and DP did well with characters like Haruka, Hikari, and Shinji. Admittedly, you have others like Kasumi and Takeshi, who didn't fare very well. But that's something that should be held against only against the writing in the shows they appeared in, and shouldn't be used to tarnish all five of them.
    None of this is to say the writers and their shows are perfect. They really aren't and have never been. This is to say that us fans have a way of allowing our expectations to get away from us and come down hard on the writers when faced with the reality that our vision of the franchise isn't always shared by the writers. We're not the ones in charge and, contrary to what seems to be a popular fandom belief in general, we're not the ones who get to make the decisions. Our role is to evaluate what's put on screen and judge whether it's good or not, and part of that means recognizing what these shows are attempting to accomplish and to critique it by that. I truly believe that's where a lot of these claims of the writers' incompetence come from.

    Its not so much about finishing completely story of past companion, but more in paying respect to those which helped build pokemon anime popularity, its history through their actions and influence they left on main protagonist(like Ash). Having them completely ignored with no references being provided make it seem like they never mattered to this show and Ash character with everything he learned from them, all experiences they went through and started work about their lives, stories and dreams they pursued being portrayed like it was erased and for nothing leading them nowhere in end given how updates and progression never gets showed making their existence in anime kinda pointless in first place being highly disrespecting and ignorant imo.

    Approach writers are using only damages continuity, takes away from stable and cohesive story which builds on itself and chance that those we grew to care about get update, receive continuation of what was made if there exists ground for it and meet new characters, show of skills and have people enjoy in their personalities and quirks they bring(sequels are a thing) adding for more appealing and filled with excitement show through pleasant surprises and impact their return brings. Im of opinion how as long anime is set in same timeline and universe not being rebooted its only fair that those which played important role in its history, Ash growth and story as whole deserves to be acknowledged.

    With complaints about poor continuity, Ash regression and stagnation as far as character development goes and overused rehashed plots rather than bringing innovation and new elements into anime all being valid complaints.
    Because of way in which pokemon series bas been present from day one. As long running anime following one big adventure stretched over long periods of time which follows permanent main star and his friends in exploring world, new civilizations and lands. With everything taking place in same setting and continuity being only understandable that viewers want more continuity from this show, characters they grew up with not being forever lost reviving on strong bonds existing between them and Ash, past they share together and unfinished stories getting some follow up. Along with wanting to see that long story concerning main protagonist get him somewhere in end eventually.

    There is nothing wrong and outrageous in people simply wanting better quality of series they like and invest their time into it.
     
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    I'm mixed on this nowadays tbh. Sure, it might not be as good as I might have remembered it when I was younger but over time I've come to believe that shows like this weren't exactly being made for adults nor do I believe that they are putting quality writing above all else. If anything, I see the show as just another marketing tool to be directed towards kids and honestly I don't really mind that too much given that this was most likely the case when I was that young as well. Granted my opinion on this isn't as fleshed out as I hoped it would be but it's been so long since I last watched any episodes of this show that it feels a bit like a learning experience if anything when trying to reminisce back to the times when I felt like I was in love with the anime lol. That, and even the simplest of shows have got to have some level of quality writing to get people to keep coming back to watch their product now.


    In short, it feels like advertising but hey, even advertising can have a few redeemable qualities sometimes. At least that's how I see it. Unless it's Geico, that is a cancer nowadays.
     
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    I'm mixed on this nowadays tbh. Sure, it might not be as good as I might have remembered it when I was younger but over time I've come to believe that shows like this weren't exactly being made for adults nor do I believe that they are putting quality writing above all else. If anything, I see the show as just another marketing tool to be directed towards kids and honestly I don't really mind that too much given that this was most likely the case when I was that young as well. Granted my opinion on this isn't as fleshed out as I hoped it would be but it's been so long since I last watched any episodes of this show that it feels a bit like a learning experience if anything when trying to reminisce back to the times when I felt like I was in love with the anime lol. That, and even the simplest of shows have got to have some level of quality writing to get people to keep coming back to watch their product now.


    In short, it feels like advertising but hey, even advertising can have a few redeemable qualities sometimes. At least that's how I see it. Unless it's Geico, that is a cancer nowadays.

    Pokémon may have technically been a kids show since its inception, but at least the original series actually tried to cater to adults as well, including some parental bonuses, making it more like a family show rather than, say, something like Barney and Friends, Blues Clues or Teletubbies unlike the more recent shows. This isn't even a guess, as Takeshi Shudo made this very clear.

    Also, highly agree with DBZ fan. Also the first I heard confirmation that they removed Misty due to a ratings dive (though I'm not particularly surprised by the revelation itself, I'm surprised they even attempted it with Misty, especially when the last time they tried to do that with a popular character, Brock, they got even worse reception regarding Tracey and thus weren't willing to replace Brock after bringing him back until after DP was over. Common sense would dictate that replacing any of the main characters is a very bad idea, even for a ratings grab.).
     
  • 3,801
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    Pokémon may have technically been a kids show since its inception, but at least the original series actually tried to cater to adults as well, including some parental bonuses, making it more like a family show rather than, say, something like Barney and Friends, Blues Clues or Teletubbies unlike the more recent shows. This isn't even a guess, as Takeshi Shudo made this very clear.

    Could you provide a link to this clarification then by any chance as I'm interested in reading it. Also, if they were making it more like a family show back then, what made them shift gears? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start an argument, I simply wish to know what happened is all.
     
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    When We say ''Bring back Misty'' Thats a personal opinion ! When We say ''Make Amourshipping Canon'' that a personal opinion .
    When I say ''Give Ash a talking Aegislesh'' That's a personal opinion.
    However When we ask for a Well-thought Story , Rival , Development , Group-Chemistry and Script , Thats not a Personal opinion .
    BW Series obviously wasn't well-thought ! Anyone with common-sense can see it.
    Flat out denying it won't change the truth ! If you keep referring A ocean as a river then it won't turn Ocean into a river.
    And Pokemon being Kids Anime doesn't make a excuse ! Writing a Kids Anime is not easy as you think because they doesn't watch every anime . Kids can lose interest in a Anime very quickly and dropped it .
    Try to make them watch ''Strain Gate'' or other popular Anime and you will see it yourself.
    Digimon Fusion was the total opposite of Pokemon BW series But it got popular because Kids liked it .
    Kids Anime has to be simple yet funny & action pecked.
    They also need to focus on one goal rather then focusing on mutiple goal because it make the story complicated.
    Just like BW series ! it tried to focus on Ash's goal , Iris's goal , Cilan's goal , Trip's Goal , Stephan's goal , practically everyone goal & Saving the world.
    While Digimon Fusion focused on only one thing ! That ''Saving the digital & human World'' .
    Same goes with Shougo Chara , It only focus on ''Dealing with X-egg and finding embiryo''
    When Pokemon started , It was about ''A Boy fulfilling his dream'' .
    Thats what made Pokemon unique.
    That Why Kids didn't mind out Misty not having a Stable goal and Brock's job.
    You might say Pokemon about exploring the world But did Ash ever said he wants to be a Pokemon Explore ???
    No , He said he want to be a Pokemon Master.
    And for a Kids , all that matter is Why the Protagonist traveling for !
    Exploring not a suitable goal and it will just bore kids out because there are multiple cartoon when A boy & girl explore a world filled with magical creature.
     
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  • 2,688
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    Could you provide a link to this clarification then by any chance as I'm interested in reading it. Also, if they were making it more like a family show back then, what made them shift gears? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start an argument, I simply wish to know what happened is all.

    Sure. Here's the link: https://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bulbagraphic:Translating_the_Blog_Entries_of_Mr._Shudo

    And contrast it with these comments from the movie artists for Awakening:

    https://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/movi...wakening_myuutwo_director_yuyama_comment.html

    As far as what made them shift gears, basically executive meddling on both sides of the Pacific, and also some cynical views about trying to make more money at the expense of story.

    When We say ''Bring back Misty'' Thats a personal opinion ! When We say ''Make Amourshipping Canon'' that a personal opinion .
    When I say ''Give Ash a talking Aegislesh'' That's a personal opinion.
    However When we ask for a Well-thought Story , Rival , Development , Group-Chemistry and Script , Thats not a Personal opinion .
    BW Series obviously wasn't well-thought ! Anyone with common-sense can see it.
    Flat out denying it won't change the truth ! If you keep referring A ocean as a river then it won't turn Ocean into a river.
    And Pokemon being Kids Anime doesn't make a excuse ! Writing a Kids Anime is not easy as you think because they doesn't watch every anime . Kids can lose interest in a Anime very quickly and dropped it .
    Try to make them watch ''Strain Gate'' or other popular Anime and you will see it yourself.
    Digimon Fusion was the total opposite of Pokemon BW series But it got popular because Kids liked it .
    Kids Anime has to be simple yet funny & action pecked.
    They also need to focus on one goal rather then focusing on mutiple goal because it make the story complicated.
    Just like BW series ! it tried to focus on Ash's goal , Iris's goal , Cilan's goal , Trip's Goal , Stephan's goal , practically everyone goal & Saving the world.
    While Digimon Fusion focused on only one thing ! That ''Saving the digital & human World'' .
    Same goes with Shougo Chara , It only focus on ''Dealing with X-egg and finding embiryo''
    When Pokemon started , It was about ''A Boy fulfilling his dream'' .
    Thats what made Pokemon unique.
    That Why Kids didn't mind out Misty not having a Stable goal and Brock's job.
    You might say Pokemon about exploring the world But did Ash ever said he wants to be a Pokemon Explore ???
    No , He said he want to be a Pokemon Master.
    And for a Kids , all that matter is Why the Protagonist traveling for !
    Exploring not a suitable goal and it will just bore kids out because there are multiple cartoon when A boy & girl explore a world filled with magical creature.

    Agreed to all except one point:

    Misty actually had a stable goal: She wanted to become the world's greatest Water Pokémon Master, and we actually see her participating in that goal a few times (Whirl Cup being a notable example). I will concede that Brock didn't have a stable goal, though, especially when his Breeder goal amounted to nothing, despite Pokémon Breeding actually being introduced in Johto.

    Heck, even among Kids anime, Pokémon didn't work out so well, either. Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z/Dragon Ball GT was technically a kid's anime, yet even that was better done than Pokémon was.

    Declaring Misty should be brought back in itself might be an opinion, but how Misty was removed in a horribly done fashion most certainly isn't an opinion, personal or otherwise. Heck, even Takeshi Shudo commented it was indeed a mistake to remove her.
     
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