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Going to war with Syria?

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    I'm not avoiding anything. I think I've been pretty clear that the US shouldn't have done anything. They had no right to be there. There was no reason for them to be there. They aren't the global authority who get to go around dispensing "justice" however they please.

    Immediate action didn't need to be taken here. This was retaliation - from a country that was never attacked mind you - for something that had already occurred. It doesn't matter how many missiles the US launches, it's not going to bring back the people who died. Nor is it going to do anything at all to stop the next attack - if there's one coming anyway.

    There was no good reason not to go through the proper channels, Trump just thinks he's above the rules/everyone else. I also realise this isn't something new to Trump, this arrogance has been a pretty common trait in American diplomacy for decades now. This doesn't change the fact that right now, Trump is the one making these decisions so it's Trump who gets blamed.

    People die in wars, that's how wars work. That doesn't mean we should just be okay with the fact that Trump - or really the US government in general since it's been like this for a long time - is happy to add fuel to the fire and increase the body count in the process for the sake of playing hero.
     
  • 5,983
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    I'm not avoiding anything. I think I've been pretty clear that the US shouldn't have done anything. They had no right to be there. There was no reason for them to be there. They aren't the global authority who get to go around dispensing "justice" however they please.

    Immediate action didn't need to be taken here. This was retaliation - from a country that was never attacked mind you - for something that had already occurred. It doesn't matter how many missiles the US launches, it's not going to bring back the people who died. Nor is it going to do anything at all to stop the next attack - if there's one coming anyway.

    There was no good reason not to go through the proper channels, Trump just thinks he's above the rules/everyone else. I also realise this isn't something new to Trump, this arrogance has been a pretty common trait in American diplomacy for decades now. This doesn't change the fact that right now, Trump is the one making these decisions so it's Trump who gets blamed.

    People die in wars, that's how wars work. That doesn't mean we should just be okay with the fact that Trump - or really the US government in general since it's been like this for a long time - is happy to add fuel to the fire and increase the body count in the process for the sake of playing hero.

    I suppose I must infer that your position is that there should be no threat of the use of force on those who would use chemical weapons.
     
  • 25,569
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    I suppose I must infer that your position is that there should be no threat of the use of force on those who would use chemical weapons.

    You shouldn't infer anything and should take my stance to be what I stated. The US can't be allowed to arbitrarily decide to start shooting missiles and deciding for themselves that they are the world's dispensers of Justice - the leader of the US alone definitely shouldn't be allowed to.

    There was no reason at all not to go through the appropriate channels. They weren't saving any lives. Simple as that.
     
  • 5,983
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    You shouldn't infer anything and should take my stance to be what I stated. The US can't be allowed to arbitrarily decide to start shooting missiles and deciding for themselves that they are the world's dispensers of Justice - the leader of the US alone definitely shouldn't be allowed to.

    There was no reason at all not to go through the appropriate channels. They weren't saving any lives. Simple as that.


    What, then, do you propose would be appropriate justice against the use of chemical weapons, which is also in violation of international law?

    But since you're so adamant that their airstrikes were so wrong, what do you think should've been done about the chemical attacks? What would be the consequences of those actions? More generally speaking, what consequences, if any, should fall on those who use chemical weapons?

    Could you explore these issues further?
     
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    Could you explore these issues further?

    Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. It's not the use of force in itself that I'm against, it is how the situation was handled. Illegally attacking an airbase, for no real benefit? Without any tangible proof that Assad was responsible? On a whim without discussing it with the UN or even congress? That is force I don't agree with, especially because of the risks involved.

    If an actual investigation had been done, if a third party had determined Assad's involvement/actual evidence was discovered and the attack actually provided a real gain - like putting Assad into a position where he couldn't maintain his office - I might have less to say about it and, from a global standpoint, Russia wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

    Instead, the US is now in the wrong.
     
  • 5,983
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    Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. It's not the use of force in itself that I'm against, it is how the situation was handled. Illegally attacking an airbase, for no real benefit? Without any tangible proof that Assad was responsible? On a whim without discussing it with the UN or even congress? That is force I don't agree with, especially because of the risks involved.

    If an actual investigation had been done, if a third party had determined Assad's involvement/actual evidence was discovered and the attack actually provided a real gain - like putting Assad into a position where he couldn't maintain his office - I might have less to say about it and, from a global standpoint, Russia wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

    Instead, the US is now in the wrong.

    I mean, the US has been bombing in Syria since 2014 without a UN mandate, so the current airstrikes are no less legitimate than all of the intervention prior to it. I think you're exaggerating the lack of proof, or at least not acknowledging the burden of proof that is reasonable in a wartime scenario. The trouble with third party investigations is that they rarely assign blame - it took the UN reports for the Ghouta gas attacks months just to say that yes, a gas attack happened. The way I see it, even if there isn't "definitive" proof, the balance of probability is definitely that Assad is responsible, and waiting to go through the "proper channels" is effectively passing the buck to a third party who's not likely to say in one direction or another who the responsibility of the gas attack really belongs to. All you're going to accomplish is delay and wait for the "official" statement, by which point it will be too late for any kind of deterrence to occur. In the meantime, Assad will be emboldened that he can get away with more gas attacks, just like how the US did nothing despite Obama drawing that "red line" five years ago. Those are the potential consequences of your alternative.

    But by keeping up the spectre of continued airstrikes on government bases, the US can at least deter the further use of chemical weapons in the war, which let me remind you have gone on unchallenged for almost five years now. I'm not sure if you agree at all if that's a worthy goal (is that what you are implying when you say there is "no real benefit?"), and whether that makes judging the airstrikes more difficult than you're making it out to be. It's obviously going to be more cut and dry if you're not really considering the potential benefits - and straight up calling the airstrikes as having no real benefit without really going into the nuances of it doesn't count.

    And I've said this multiple times, but Congress doesn't authorize individual military actions. That's not the role of the legislature at all, that's an executive function. That expectation isn't at all realistic - but if you think it is, I think it's about time you discuss why.
     
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    I don't agree with those air strikes either because, even aside from the lack of UN approval, they are very clearly not improving the situation if gas attacks are still occurring and civilians are dying. That's just more evidence that this attack isn't going to stop anything either. All it achieved was setting back relations with Russia decades and making the US look ridiculous globally. If you've been trying the same tactic for years and it's not helping, it's time to change to a new tactic.

    I think I've made myself pretty clear on my reasoning for thinking Congress or the UN should be consulted over military action like this - one person alone should not have the power to decide to drop missiles on a foreign country.

    You could argue that Assad is a dictator and therefor violates those same principles but I'm pretty sure you've heard the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right".
     

    El Héroe Oscuro

    IG: elheroeoscuro
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    MRW reading gimmepie and Kanzler's back and forth dialogue

    Going to war with Syria?
     
  • 5,983
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    I don't agree with those air strikes either because, even aside from the lack of UN approval, they are very clearly not improving the situation if gas attacks are still occurring and civilians are dying. That's just more evidence that this attack isn't going to stop anything either. All it achieved was setting back relations with Russia decades and making the US look ridiculous globally. If you've been trying the same tactic for years and it's not helping, it's time to change to a new tactic.

    Well, that's a pretty unreasonable expectation because those airstrikes were directed against ISIS. I thought we all knew that the missile attack just a week ago was the first directed at Assad, and therefore the only ones that could possibly have an effect on Assad using gas and killing civilians.

    It's hard to prove either way whether deterrence works, because you can't rewind the tape of history and see how many gas attacks would've happened if not for the airstrike, but I don't think anyone's in a position to say flat-out that the attack isn't going to do anything. Like it's only been a week - we can speak of possibilities, but I really don't think there's enough evidence to say "yes the missiles were absolutely effective" or "no, they're not going to stop anything".

    Relations with Russia were already messed up from their invasion of Crimea and their support of the rebels there, and again when Russia started bombing the Syrian rebels in addition to ISIS against which they were originally in Syria for. I'm not exactly sure where this motivation for wanting such good relations with Russia comes from. The US and the world, for that matter, needs and benefits from China much more than Russia, and they're hardly the troublemaker that Russia is. It's nice to be friends with countries, but not if that relationship requires compromising more with them than they're willing to go for us.

    And I don't know what you're talking about when you say the US looked ridiculous globally. NATO in general supported it, countries like Russia, Iran, and Venezuela hated it, and pretty much the rest of the world, including China, was neutral. The US doesn't have the best reputation in the world for a lot of reasons, but since the international reactions were so expected, I really don't think you can say it's made the US look worse (but as always, feel free to expand on your arguments).

    I think I've made myself pretty clear on my reasoning for thinking Congress or the UN should be consulted over military action like this - one person alone should not have the power to decide to drop missiles on a foreign country.

    Then I guess Obama should've consulted the UN or Congress over assassinating bin Laden, too, right? Surprise and decisiveness are necessary in military affairs. You can load yourself all these conditions and consultations, but effectively all you're doing is preventing yourself from taking decisive action when that becomes necessary.

    You could argue that Assad is a dictator and therefor violates those same principles but I'm pretty sure you've heard the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right".

    You've got to break an egg to make an omelette. To do nothing while chemical attacks occur, while you have the capabilities to do something, is to neglect the current and future victims and disempower the international laws dictating the appropriate conduct of war. You might say I'm breaking some eggs, I would say you're allowing eggs to be broken. Your position gives you the benefit of passing the buck (to Congress or the UN), but standing by and allowing chemical weapons to be used is still wrong. International affairs isn't simply a decision between right and wrong, it also requires you to make a decision between bad and worse. Whether an option is a bad one or the worse one requires a nuanced discussion, much more so than saying "two wrongs don't make a right".
     
  • 25,569
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    Well, that's a pretty unreasonable expectation because those airstrikes were directed against ISIS. I thought we all knew that the missile attack just a week ago was the first directed at Assad, and therefore the only ones that could possibly have an effect on Assad using gas and killing civilians.

    I could have sworn that the US had attacked against Assad before. Anyway, for the most part I feel like we're just going to go in circles here and never agree. You think that because there was a fair chance of Assad being responsible it was okay for the US to subvert international law, act like total hypocrites and hurt already rocky relations with Russia despite Trump's claims that he'd do the opposite. I think that the US has no business deciding that it gets to be the world's dispenser of justice and that attacking without definitive evidence and breaking international law for what will probably be no benefit is wrong. Simple as that.

    I'm not pro-Russia. I don't want the US or anyone else being too buddy-buddy with them. There's a difference between keeping a distance and sanctioning over breaches of treaties/invasions/law breaking and "hey you guys should probably get out the way of the missiles we're about to drop on your ally because there's a possibility he did something shitty" though.

    Globally doesn't just mean politicians. People around the world, as in ordinary people, are not exactly thrilled that their safety and stability was just put at risk for no gain. You're free to argue that putting pressure on Assad is a gain but I think past experiences dictate otherwise. How'd the US pressure in all the other countries they've ruined help?

    Quite frankly, yes Obama should have consulted with the UN before assassinating Bin Laden. I find it easier to forgive that though since it was an action far less likely to destabilise or endanger entire countries.

    Bad and worse? How is this not worse? Do you seriously think nine deaths and destroyed infrastructure will stop Assad from conducting another gas attack if he was indeed responsible? He doesn't care. Dictators tend to be the type who'd rather rule over a nuclear wasteland devoid of people than back down or abdicate. This is just the US getting involved in more foreign affairs that have nothing to do with them and things are only going to get worse as a result the same way they do literally every time the US forcibly interjects themselves into affairs in the Middle East.
     
  • 1,225
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    Of course I think Trump's decision was totally asinine and represents an extension of a miserably failed U.S. Middle East policy. Of course Clinton would have done the same thing, but that is totally moot now. If she were President, I would be harshly criticizing her for making the exact same mistake. This type of intervention does nothing to make the U.S. or Syria safer. While the atrocities in Syria are certainly grave, anything we do to undermine the Syrian government will certainly have an adverse effect on counterterrorism tactics. Not to mention, the U.S. has no place intervening in Syria in the first place. Syria has sovereignty over its own people and territory. To violate this sovereignty is nothing other than an act of war.
     
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    WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States has concluded Russia knew in advance of Syria's chemical weapons attack last week, a senior U.S. official said Monday.

    The official said a drone operated by Russians was flying over a hospital as victims of the attack were rushing to get treatment. Hours after the drone left, a Russian-made fighter jet bombed the hospital in what American officials believe was an attempt to cover up the usage of chemical weapons.

    The senior official said the U.S. has no proof of Russian involvement in the actual chemical attack in northern Syria.

    But the official said the presence of the surveillance drone over the hospital couldn't have been a coincidence, and that Russia must have known the chemical weapons attack was coming and that victims were seeking treatment.

    The official, who wasn't authorized to speak publicly on intelligence matters and demanded anonymity, didn't give precise timing for when the drone was in the area, where more than 80 people were killed. The official also didn't provide details for the military and intelligence information that form the basis of what the Pentagon now believes.

    Another U.S. official cautioned that no final American determination has been made that Russia knew ahead of time that chemical weapons would be used. That official wasn't authorized to speak about internal administration deliberations and spoke on condition of anonymity.

    The allegation of Russian foreknowledge is grave, even by the standards of the currently dismal U.S.-Russian relations.

    Although Russia has steadfastly supported Syrian President Bashar Assad's government, and they've coordinated military attacks together, Washington has never previously accused Moscow of complicity in any attack that involved the gassing of innocent civilians, including children. The former Cold War foes even worked together in 2013 to remove and destroy more than 1,300 tons of Syrian chemical weapons and agents.

    Until Monday, U.S. officials had said they weren't sure whether Russia or Syria operated the drone. The official said the U.S. is now convinced Russia controlled the drone. The official said it still isn't clear who was flying the jet that bombed the hospital, because the Syrians also fly Russian-made aircraft.

    U.S. officials previously have said Russians routinely work with Syrians at the Shayrat air base where the attack is supposed to have originated. U.S. officials say the chemical weapons were stored there and that those elements add to the conclusion that Russia was complicit in the attack.

    Last Thursday 59 Tomahawk missiles were fired on the government-controlled base in the United States' first direct military action against Assad's forces.

    The U.S. has been focusing its military action in Syria on defeating the Islamic State group.

    On Monday, Col. John J. Thomas, a U.S. military spokesman, said the U.S. has taken extra defensive precautions in Syria in case of possible retaliation against American forces for the cruise missile attack.

    Thomas told reporters at the Pentagon that the increased emphasis on defensive measures to protect U.S. troops on the ground in Syria led to a slight and temporary decline in offensive U.S. airstrikes against IS in Syria.

    There has been no Syrian retaliation so far for the cruise missile attack, which destroyed or rendered inoperable more than 20 Syria air force planes, he said.

    Thomas said the U.S. intends to return to full offensive air operations against IS as soon as possible.

    https://apnews.com/19772be1238e49fb...sia-knew-in-advance-of-Syrian-chemical-attack

    The plot thickens.

    To those who bemoan the lack of proof, consider the fact that when making such proof public, you are telling opposing forces what you know - especially what you are not supposed to know. This might cause them to realize what else you might possibly know, and make it more difficult to gather intelligence on them in the future. It might also give away information about your capabilities or would otherwise ought to be confidential.

    Obviously, this makes it impossible for third parties like ourselves to verify things to the certainty that the US is acting in, but we should not confuse that with there being insufficient proof. There may or may not be, but regardless you would be the last to know.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    https://apnews.com/19772be1238e49fb...sia-knew-in-advance-of-Syrian-chemical-attack

    The plot thickens.

    To those who bemoan the lack of proof, consider the fact that when making such proof public, you are telling opposing forces what you know - especially what you are not supposed to know. This might cause them to realize what else you might possibly know, and make it more difficult to gather intelligence on them in the future. It might also give away information about your capabilities or would otherwise ought to be confidential.

    Obviously, this makes it impossible for third parties like ourselves to verify things to the certainty that the US is acting in, but we should not confuse that with there being insufficient proof. There may or may not be, but regardless you would be the last to know.

    "Saddam definitely has nukes, we're not just after oil! You can trust us because we said so!"
     

    Sword Master

    You underestimate my power!
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    No, going to war with Assad plays into the hands of ISIS, we should wait until ISIS are defeated before deciding the fate of Assad.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    Arsenic

    [div=font-size: 18px; font-family: 'Kaushan script
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    I recall reading that it's not about Syria's oil production so much as its about building a pipeline to the EU.

    Supposedly NATO members want a pipeline from the oil rich Qatar and Saudi to feed into the EU and for it to be owned by US oil giants. They want to oust Assad to replace him with a Western sympathetic leader.

    Meanwhile the Bloc alliance wants a pipeline from Iran to tap the EU market and supplement Russia's large chunk of it. They think helping Assad will grant them permission.

    I'm not going to comment on whether it's true or not, as I don't even remember where I saw it, never mind presenting evidence (not that the west ever needs it to do anything hahaha). So I will classify it currently with conspiracy theory or rumors. Interesting theory none the less I think.
     
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    I recall reading that it's not about Syria's oil production so much as its about building a pipeline to the EU.

    Supposedly NATO members want a pipeline from the oil rich Qatar and Saudi to feed into the EU and for it to be owned by US oil giants. They want to oust Assad to replace him with a Western sympathetic leader.

    Meanwhile the Bloc alliance wants a pipeline from Iran to tap the EU market and supplement Russia's large chunk of it. They think helping Assad will grant them permission.

    I'm not going to comment on whether it's true or not, as I don't even remember where I saw it, never mind presenting evidence (not that the west ever needs it to do anything hahaha). So I will classify it currently with conspiracy theory or rumors. Interesting theory none the less I think.

    That's actually a pretty reasonable theory. Yeah I guess it's convenient that Assad response to his rebellions has been so brutal for the West to take advantage of that instability. At the same time though, it's probably worth it to keep supporting those Gulf states, since the alternative is increased European dependence on Russian oil. Neither of those options are particularly appetizing, but losing Europe to Russia is in my opinion the greater of the two evils.
     

    Sir Codin

    Guest
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    Regardless, in the end, it's still about oil....you know...an energy substance we keep telling ourselves to wean off of.
     
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