Religion and God

[Her]

I feel like if a person can form a negative opinion about something they dont even know of then they can find the information themselves but...if you want to know where to start you can check out the books
"The ancient secret of the flower of life" vol. 1 and 2
And "Living In The Heart

Also ancient Sanskit and Sumerian writings
The emerald tablets
The Book Of The Dead (The Egyptian bible that the romans and greeks stole ideas from to form christianity among other religions)
Pyramid hieroglyphics or any really but mainly the giza pyramids hieroglyphics
The Ancient Egyptian Schools Of Mystery

You can also use as SOMEWHAT of a reference but not a true guide:
5%er knowledge
NOI Teachings
Rastafarian Teachings

There's evidence everywhere, im not just talking out my ass i definitely check my sources.

The point being though that you have listed off where you get your info from but don't explain their relevance or have any specific detail about them. I sure as hell do not have the time nor energy to delve into 'ancient Sumerian and Sanskrit writings' to find whatever knowledge you are relying upon. If you have a belief you wish to bring to the table, then bring the info as well. The burden of proof is not on you because I am not looking to be persuaded nor influenced, but the burden of information is most certainly in your court.

 

[KingMarz]

I dont hold hands if thats the case i might as well read it for you and place it into your brain, you asked for proof or sources there you go ive done my task if you dont wanna look further thats your choice.

What you believe is wrong, show proof
*shows proof*
I aint got time to read that
...


Show me proof jesus existed or adam and eve roamed earth, ill wait...

 

[Her]

I dont hold hands if thats the case i might as well read it for you and place it into your brain, you asked for proof or sources there you go ive done my task if you dont wanna look further thats your choice.

What you believe is wrong, show proof
*shows proof*
I aint got time to read that
...


Show me proof jesus existed or adam and eve roamed earth, ill wait...

Just so we're clear, I haven't said anything about your beliefs themselves - what you believe is irrelevant to me. I hold no such beliefs in the Abrahamic religions and am rather disconnected from any belief system as a whole aside from my own somewhat fickle moral code, the latter of which is an entirely different topic. I really just don't care about what you take hold in.

I am simply trying to get you to strengthen your own skills, for your own sake. You are much too heavy-handed and vague. For example - lets say I was still the devout Catholic of my youth. If I wanted to educate someone on my beliefs, I wouldn't just put a big copy of the Gutenberg bible in a person's hands and leave the room. If I subscribed to Judaism, I wouldn't drop a person off at temple and hope they understood the customs of my kind by the time I sent a taxi for them later. You need to give a person context, you need to give a person a starting point. What parts of these Sumerian & Sanskrit writings you mention are relevant? Where could I begin my knowledge? Same kinda thing applies for pretty much everything else you said. What parts of Rastafarianism pertain to your beliefs? Where does The Book of the Dead come in? You can't just list off such huge topics, along with your rather loosely defined take on what you actually believe, and expect people to not be overwhelmed. It's just not an acceptable method of imparting knowledge. Information is nothing if not accessible - tailor your argument; your explanation; your story to what is best suited for the situation.

You are flustered, which is a shame as it is not a big deal, nor do I believe I am asking for much from someone who clearly has a strong connection to their beliefs. Asking for clarification is not an affront to you and you will have to deal with that if you wish people to understand you.

 

[gimmepie]

I dont hold hands if thats the case i might as well read it for you and place it into your brain, you asked for proof or sources there you go ive done my task if you dont wanna look further thats your choice.

What you believe is wrong, show proof
*shows proof*
I aint got time to read that
...


Show me proof jesus existed or adam and eve roamed earth, ill wait...

You've not shown us proof, you've told us where you supposedly found it. I don't know about everyone else here, but I can't afford to fly to Egypt and take a look at the Giza Pyramids just to maybe understand what you're on about. Don't say you have proof and then refuse to give it. If you have proof or evidence tell us what it is. Otherwise we're forced to assume you're full of it. If you have nothing to say, say nothing. If you have something to say, actually say it.

Oh, a lot of scholars (including atheists) agree Jesus was a real person by the way. Most don't necessarily believe he was the son of God, and neither do I, but I'm pretty certain that they're right and a man named Jesus Christ real did walk the Earth. These aren't great sources, I'll go dig up some better ones later if I can be bothered.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/08/14/is-there-evidence-jesus-was-a-real-person/
https://www.atheistapologist.com/2010/06/was-jesus-real-man.html

As for Adam and Eve, that's definitely just a story. It's biologically impossible as literally anyone who studied biology in middle school could tell you.

Nah's already said most of the other stuff that needs to be said but I'm going to add that if you think another member is acting inappropriately you don't call them out here, you report it so either myself or Nah can deal with it. That's our job and it only poisons discussion when other people try and do it.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I agree Jesus was a real person too tbh - although idk and cba for now to look up if the Roman writings about his existence, where he lived, his occupation, his death certificate or whatever document the Roman Empire used, were kept. I do believe he was a person who was ultimately turned into a God for some reason in the gospel of John.

There was even a project called the Jesus Seminar in the late 80s to 2006 iirc which seemingly aimed to expose the real Jesus and his life, occupation and the reason he was executed. Michael Runyan, an atheist and the owner of kyroot.com, says that only 18% of Jesus's quotes are real, that he was born in Nazareth, not in Bethleem, that his father might not have been Joseph and that the empty tomb is a fiction. Though according to Gary Shadle, a good Christian debater (an extreme rarity), it seems like this project wanted to rewrite the gospels so they could make Jesus fit in with the pop culture and whatnot. Gary also says they used a biased voting system to research and decide if what Jesus said was true or not, and that most of them were not even advanced scholars to begin with, saying that the Jesus Seminar was by "invitation only". (source: kyroot.com)

The creation and the Adam and Eve stuff are definitely made-up stories though.

 

[KingMarz]

Nah i aint flustered i find it weird my belief is being poked and prodded all of a sudden i dont see a general interest in it just a way to disprove it.

My belief deals with meditation and looking within to find answers. Loving all creatures unconditionally aligning your energies through meditation to better balance yourself in all aspects. Every human has 2 energies which are male (destruction) the logical cold calculating energy and female (creation) the imaginative warm emotional energy you cant have one without the other and they both can translate into positive or negative depending on the state of mind the persons in. As humans we fell from consciousness a long time ago and those energies have vibrational outputs you may know them better as catching a vibe from a person and im the type of person whos an energy conduit, i vibrate at a higher state than what youd call normal and its easy for me to sense vibes or frequencies from a person. If a person has a low vibration they most likely have more negative energy in them than positive which actually is the cause of most the discord in the world today and you can feel it if you train your mind to focus on it. A lot of things are common sense when you take the time to break it down, like i said everything is based off geometry and energy down to the atoms and cells in everything. Thats only the beginning i also work on unlocking my chakras and reaching the christ conscious state that yall know jesus for because jesus wasnt a person the image of jesus was a person whatever his name was but the actual being "son of god" did not exist. If thats the care then every sacred messiah in every religion which share the same characteristics between each other from birth to death was the son of god sooooooo what does that say?

You want more of a break down then READ like i said if you dont want to read you arent that interested you just wanna how you can say im wrong because you think i had someone teach me all that i know sit there and tell me oh heres what you do you start here no but the way my mind works i easily understand complex concepts and im able to break it down in my head then build, its call greater understanding.

Look up Edgar Cayce he speaks a lot on the subject also READ the flower of life vol 1 you can find a pdf online and just read the 1st couple chapters THEN come at me and tell me how im wrong or disprove whatever you want but i refuse to take an opinion of anybody who fails to even try and research what i speak on because whatever you believe is cool but as soon as the new guy speaks on an unknown matter its a witch hunt thats kind of annoying and makes me view yall as ignorant, its not like i said fu- religion without even looking to see what im going against. I was in the army for 6 years so i know all about recon and gathering intel on the enemy but im not an ignorant fool whos gonna blindly do or believe something without having logic behind it, im far from stupid and it seems like thats what it boils down to what i think is dumb because its new to you thats ignorant.

 

[gimmepie]

Snip

I'm not saying you're wrong, if you read anything I've said in this thread already you'd know I'm not going to criticise that which can't be disproven because I'm fundamentally against the idea.

I am saying that you're still not providing any reasoning for what you believe and are continuing to post from some perch of superiority regardless. We're real people with lives and expectations, we're not going to read something because you're too lazy to explain it. Tell us why you think you're right or get off the high horse. If you wanted to simply share and not participate in discussion you wouldn't still be here, but you are still here and are still speaking from some place of arrogance. So just get to the point already.

 

[KingMarz]

You know what figure it out, im good on tryna explain and explain and your mind is too closed to even view possibilities and learn on your own instead you want someone to draw a road map, too lazy? Me? Nah youre too lazy to learn and ive already given too much time and energy up to this deadend. I came to this site to play pokemon not prove a point to people who wont even take the time to explore what they dont know. Dont even bother replying im done ✌

 

[Jiggling Jigglypuff]

This is my two cents on this subject. Everyone is going to have their opinion on Religion and God and everyone has the right to express that on a forum. Here is my point if a person is so insecure with their own views on this subject that if someone else views will seem like an attack on their own or they feel like they are trying to get them to sway their own opinion then they don't have a strong enough opinion on the subject in the first place and shouldn't even enter the debate.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I'd like to bring up "the evil nature of the Christian God" as presented here: https://www.kyroot.com/?p=8#evilgod

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

Would an all-loving God give such an order? I severely doubt it, even with what the Amalekites have done according to the Bible. Looks like they were the followers of Esau's grandson. Esau, unlike his brother Jacob, was walking away from the Christian God, and this would kind of explain it; later we find out that the Amalekites were "cowardly group of barbaric Hitler-type people who snuck up behind Israel while they were tired, weak, and exhausted from traveling." According to Gary Shadle, God has given them 300 years to turn back to him, but I don't think a timelapse would be enough, even as high as 300 years...

So yeah, giving such an order is barbaric and nonsensical even in the context that the Amalekites were against God. And even then, what is the reason their children, infants and animals should be killed just because their parents are "sinful"? Basically this confirms the Christian God is "a serial, genocidal, infanticidal, filicidal, and pestilential murderer". According to Mr. Runyan, God killed or authorized the killings of up to 25 million people.

Edit: Upon reading Gary Shadle's full argument, he's comparing the Amalekites to Hitler, asking this rhetorical question: would you kill the infant Hitler that you know will eventually kill 6 million Jews when he grows up, or will you let him grow up and do that? The answer, according to him, is kill the infant boy, since you are all-knowing.
But, if the Christian God is all-knowing, that means he knows the Amalekites will NOT turn to him, even within a time frame of 300 years, so why did he let them survive for 300 years in the first place and not just outright kill them? This basically means:

A) God is NOT all-knowing
B) God is all-knowing, but doesn't want to "serve justice" until 300 years pass

That said, "serving justice" means a genocide that includes killing the infants and more especially the animals which did nothing wrong.

 

[Splishy Splashy]

Is there religion? Sure there are many religions. Some say that is one of the major reasons why so many people hate in this world today. Yes I said hate which seems to condradict what religion and God is suppose to be all about. The problem with it all is not everyone can be right and the people want to be. My feeling is that one of these religions is teaching the right thing from the right book and the other ones were writing just to **** with our minds. Or maybe they were all writing to **** with our minds. Now onto God or a higher being. This is much harder for me to fully grasp because I can't physically see this higher being. Sure I can read about people who are said to be the Messiah in these books, but that was writing a hell of a long time before I was even thought of. I guess what I am trying to say is for some people to grasp the idea of a higher being and afterlife may be great for them, but for others they can just go on living their lives making their own choices and not relying on a higher being. To each their own.

 

[Aeroblast]

Do you believe in a God? No

Should people believe in a God? It's not up to me to decide

Do you think there is evidence of God? No

Is religion good? depends on the religion

Does religion have anything of value to offer to society? see above

Has religion ever had anything of value to offer to society? see above

 

[Exothermic]

Do you believe in a God? No
Should people believe in a God? Depends on the individual though leaning towards No
Do you think there is evidence of God? Not at the current moment
Is religion good? No, but it's useful.
Does religion have anything of value to offer to society? Yes, though it's utility is short-lived.
Has religion ever had anything of value to offer to society? Yes, it is useful in keeping people in line.

 

[Flowerchild]

Do you believe in a God? No.
Should people believe in a God? No.
Do you think there is evidence of God? No.
Is religion good? Religion has caused more genocide and death, both in medieval times and increasingly in recent decades, than anything else I can name. Why people still cling to these outdated beliefs that encourage war, genocide, patriarchy and skepticism about real scientific facts with real evidence, I can't say.
Does religion have anything of value to offer to society? Well, I've no doubt that there are times at which religion can be consoling or can be a unifying force among people. However, I'm struck by the amount of people who somehow think this makes religion true. Just because I feel happy by thinking about unicorns doesn't mean that unicorns are a real thing, and that's the exact same argument many people use about God.

I find it funny how people are using the Bible to support the fact that the Christian God exists. It's like trying to use the Harry Potter books to prove Harry Potter exists.

ahahah. That's a great way of putting it.

Do you think there is evidence of God?

Eyup. But only a seeker who question things can find em. I think about it like math, not all people understand it, but those who do their best get results.

I'd prefer to phrase that as "only someone who researches religion with a closed heart, ie, looking for evidence that confirms the beliefs they already hold, can find evidence in favor of it."

I domt care what my opinion comes off as i know what i believe and im not about to sit here and change it just because you throw some scientifically back theories at me. I am denouncing ape to humam evolution like i said you may be a monkey but im not your ancestors mightve lived in mountains and humped each other mine didnt, i dont care how old the fossils are at the end of the day i know humans existed before that maybe not on this planet or galaxy or even this physical plane but we existed and this planet was the dinosaurs before it was ours no meteor just came by chance and altered the atmosphere and killed the dinos but you must be a scientologist or something so you prolly believe in the big bang too. Were arent gonna get far with your close mindedness, i said my peace on my belief if you dont like it oh well deal with it, i know im not spewing ignorance.

Do research my dude for real and more than just within your little science club man go deeper.

Actually, you are spewing ignorance. Saying "I just know" is the sum of your arguments here, and needless to say that does not constitute a valid debate point. I hope you realize how ignorant "im not about to sit here and change it just because you throw some scientifically back theories at me" sounds.

Anyways, I want to restate one of Caaethil's points from the beginning of the debate, because I felt that it was a great point that didn't really get much of a response. If you are religious, often the particulars of your beliefs - Christian vs Muslim, etc - are simply a coincidence based on your location. If you acknowledge that you would have been a Muslim rather than a Christian had you been born in Egypt, (or any other example), how can you still believe in your particular religion over others? You're admitting that it was merely based on where you were born.

 

[gimmepie]

Anyways, I want to restate one of Caaethil's points from the beginning of the debate, because I felt that it was a great point that didn't really get much of a response. If you are religious, often the particulars of your beliefs - Christian vs Muslim, etc - are simply a coincidence based on your location. If you acknowledge that you would have been a Muslim rather than a Christian had you been born in Egypt, (or any other example), how can you still believe in your particular religion over others? You're admitting that it was merely based on where you were born.

In that case, I have to ask what you have to say about people who convert to different beliefs over time or that believe in a higher power but don't follow organised religion.

 

[Flowerchild]

In that case, I have to ask what you have to say about people who convert to different beliefs over time or that believe in a higher power but don't follow organised religion.

I don't really have much of a problem with either, honestly. Though I still believe that it's both unscientific and unnecessary, I can respect someone who came to believe in their religion after a long period of contemplation or examination of all the options. It's far, far better than someone who believes what their parents believe without questioning it in any way.

 

[Argenta]

I'd prefer to phrase that as "only someone who researches religion with a closed heart, ie, looking for evidence that confirms the beliefs they already hold, can find evidence in favor of it."

Wouldn't it be the same when we say "Only someone who researches religion with a closed believe that God doesn't exist anyway? We are in the same boat if you think about it. You ask me for a proof that God exists and I ask you for a proof that he doesn't. Which one of us will be right if we both don't have a 100% proof?


So many people have converted their religions, and so many religious people have left believing, it's not about closing hearts, it's about what you find logical and acceptable for you to believe. In the end, there will be an answer, too bad that those who knew it are on the other side of life known as "death"

 

[Flowerchild]

The difference is, I don't have to prove the nonexistence of something - that's not how it works. If you're going to use that logic, I ask you to disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or that the universe is controlled by an omnipotent shoe, or the gods of any other religion. To quote Richard Dawkins, the burden of proof rests on the believer, not the skeptic.

 

[Argenta]

Then, according to what you disbelieve? There is no point in saying "I don't believe because I don't want to believe" That's not a reason.

I won't disprove any, to each their own. I'm responsible for what I believe and why do I believe in that.

There is no "burden" because nobody is actually forced to believe.

 

[baceevee]

• Do you believe in a God?
• Should people believe in a God?
• Do you think there is evidence of God?
• Is religion good?
• Does religion have anything of value to offer to society?
• Has religion ever had anything of value to offer to society?

To answer your questions: Yes, I believe in God, specifically the 'Christian' God. I don't think people should or shouldn't believe in God. I think people should believe in whatever they want, or nothing at all, if that's what they choose. I have not and will never be one to push my beliefs on anyone or demand that anyone believes a specific thing because belief is subjective, as all of us know. If someone doesn't experience something the same way I do, I do not and will not expect them to believe the same thing that I do in regards to that experience. Even if they did experience it the same way as I did, they could still develop their own thoughts and beliefs on that experience. Belief in a higher power or deity or God works the same way for me.

As for the next three questions, I'm not sure how to answer them. I think whether or not religion is good/bad, and whether or not religion offers anything valuable to society depends entirely upon the people who follow it.

To get a little deeper on the subject of my personal beliefs, I grew up in a Christian home. I went through a period in time where I believed that there was a higher power that created everything, but 'stepped away' after that if you will. After having a few personal experiences during that period in time that I felt like was God revealing his existence to me in a sense, I have gone back to believing in some of the basics of Christianity. But, I also believe in reincarnation because there are scriptures that I believe refer to reincarnation (I have a couple of links to an interesting forum post and an article on that if anyone's interested), and a few other things that are generally not accepted by most Christian denominations and sects.

So I don't know if I could call myself a Christian at this point or not. I mean, some things just don't make sense to me. For example, why would people be born with what we consider 'psychic' abilities (and if you don't believe people are born with such abilities, or don't believe in God/a god, look at this question hypothetically) if God didn't want people dabbling in the 'occult'? Why wouldn't that be considered a spiritual gift instead of occult practice? This may be on the edge of conspiracy--but my personal answer to this question is because those who put the 'canon' Bible together wanted people to stay ignorant and didn't want people to expand on their God given (or natural if you do not believe in God/a god) abilities.

Another thing that I often think about is, how do we know all books that were included in the canon Bible are God-inspired as Christians say, but those that are not included are not? Especially considering that MAN put the canon Bible together. But anyway, the way that I read the Bible because of these thoughts that I have is, I read and then pray about it. I also take a good bit of the Bible as metaphorical rather than literal, and I also see it as guidance for a Christian life, not necessarily the end all be all. I also think that when reading certain books of the Bible, the context, time it was written (if there is an estimated time available for that specific book), and who it was addressed to needs to be taken into consideration a lot more than it actually is. I am well aware that none of this really lines up with 'normal' Christian beliefs but I guess that's the beauty of individuality and all of us having our own minds, thoughts and experiences. Maybe I'm more spiritual than anything else at this point.

So anyway, I just wanted to give some more input. I'm open for discussion and insight.