[Other] Stop Binary Hacking; It's Holding Back the Entire Community

[Lunos]

I was comparing battle engine to battle engine. Please refer back to my statement:

The Emerald battle engine upgrade is currently far inferior to the CFRU's

Notice how I wrote "CFRU's" and not "CFRU". I.e. "The Emerald battle engine upgrade is currently far inferior to the CFRU's battle engine upgrade"

Fair enough. Although there's no longer an EBEU per se, I understand.

Last time I checked, the CFRU was missing moves such as Ally Switch

Yup, the only move I never did and will never do. I consider it complete, even without that niche move. If Ally Switch not being implemented were the only thing stopping people from using the CFRU, I imagine they won't have much luck period since the expansion doesn't have it implemented yet either.

Not having Ally Switch was not the point. I was specifically talking about the 2 projects' definitions of "completion" and that is but an example.

battle types like the SOS Battles introduced in the Gen. 7 Pokémon Games.

First off, I abhor the SOS battle mechanic. It was incredibly frustrating trying to catch Pokemon in Sun & Moon when they would keep summoning help and you couldn't throw a Ball until one of the enemy Pokemon were defeated. And second, there actually is a bit of experimentation I did with that kind of battle in the CFRU (see Pokemon Unbound climax on Difficult and higher).

Again, fair enough. The point stands regardless. The CFRU clearly has different goals or definitions of completion than the expansion does. I wanted to clarify that.

many abilities, certain mechanics such as the damage reduction of Super Effective moves against Flying-type Pokémon while Delta Stream's weather condition is in effect

For example, the CFRU has an extended saving time which is not present in the expansion.

Its latest versions have a problem with the DNS system

See the dev branch. Admittedly I'm much worse at responding to my messages and open issues than I should be, but all of those issues have already been fixed for months.

Maybe it's about time to update the CFRU's README to properly relay that information then?

They're still present in the Master branch which is still the default branch for the project.
That's neither here nor there though. It's cool that you fixed those bugs!

That's not to mention that the CFRU has issues of its own which you didn't talk about at all.
If you want to talk about the cons of the expansion, it is only fair to talk about the CFRU's own too.

Notice how you've reported bugs, while I referred to the overall state of what the expansion contains. I could have just as easily said as well "look how many issues the expansion has open", but I didn't because I accept that bugs will happen.

You didn't refer to the entirety of the expansion though. You yourself said you were talking about the EBEU (the battle engine of the Pokeemerald-expansion, in other words), and that's exactly what you did right there.
I shouldn't have gone on a tangent talking about the CFRU's weaker points that are not related to its battle engine, I apologize about that.
To me though, it felt like you were bringing up the cons in the expansion, so it only seemed fair to bring up the CFRU's as well.
Again, glad you fixed those issues though. The purpose was to even the playing field a little, nothing else.
Both projects have their pros and cons, their own sets of features and their own separate developments.
I would never want to turn this into a "Project A VS Project B" though, so again, I will apologize. I rather not generate any bad blood between the 2 projects ^^"
The CFRU used stuff from the expansion and plenty from the decomps in general, the expansion used stuff from the CFRU.
Both projects benefit from the other's existence, and that's alright. That's one of the beautiful things about open source code projects.

The point about move animations is whatever. That's a completely subjective topic.
The expansion doesn't need to use the new animations, though I will conceed that many of them could use a revamp, such as Draco Ascent's.

You're right, it doesn't need to. But if the quality matters to me, I can assure you it matters to other people as well (even if it doesn't matter to you).

Of course it matters to me, I want to make that clear first and foremost. I said it, that I myself know that some move animations in the expansion could benefit from an update.
I'll avoid discussing their quality any further than that though. I haven't seen even half of the half of the new animations, so I can't pick a stance about whether they're all low quality like you imply or not.
Some of the move animations I've seen in the past looked alright to me. They looked cool enough, but that's not much of an argument.

the Dynamax Battles are being slowly worked on inside of a Draft Pull Request in the expansion's repository.

Being "slowly worked on" does not equal done. Please refer back to my statement:

So until the EBEU surpasses the CFRU's battle engine, I wouldn't willingly switch

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Let me follow this up by reiterating my point. As it currently stands, the expansion's battle engine is objectively not as advanced as the CFRU's. Will it be one day? Probably, especially considering I don't plan on supporting mine for that much longer anyway. But until then,

I wouldn't willingly switch

That's alright, and I agree. The battle engine of the expansion still has a few ways to go

 

[HustlerJim]

To me though, it felt like you were bringing up the cons in the expansion, so it only seemed fair to bring up the CFRU's as well.

Lunos, why do you feel such a need to "level the playing field" when a decomp project's progress is criticised, whereas this is just the commonplace attitude towards binary progress? Binary cons are brought up 24/7. This entire thread was started because a binary tool, hma, actually made significant progress, and the knee-jerk response was a hate-fueled topic ordering them to actually stop making progress. You surely can't be indignant at (constructive) cristiscm of the expansion on a topic of this aggressive nature towards anything binary. Skeli's argument towards you was levelling the playing field, you are just tipping it again.
And yes, I know you didn't create the topic nor agree with its content, but the point stands

 

[Lunos]

Lunos, why do you feel such a need to "level the playing field" when a decomp project's progress is criticised, whereas this is just the commonplace attitude towards binary progress?

Not going to lie; it's an entirely subjective feeling.
I contribute to the expansion myself, and it didn't sit well with me to see it being criticized even though it's constantly being worked on.

As I said above though, Skeli is right. The expansion's battle engine is still behind the CFRU's in many ways, and Skeli's stance is perfectly understandable.
I'll keep doing my (rather small) part to improve it alongside the other contributors, and hopefully one day, the project will be able to shine much brighter than it does right now.

Binary cons are brought up 24/7. This entire thread was started because a binary tool, hma, actually made significant progress, and the knee-jerk response was a hate-fueled topic ordering them to actually stop making progress. You surely can't be indignant at (constructive) cristiscm of the expansion on a topic of this aggressive nature towards anything binary. Skeli's argument towards you was levelling the playing field, you are just tipping it again.
And yes, I know you didn't create the topic nor agree with its content, but the point stands

I mean, pointing out cons without providing any suggestions on how to improve upon them is not really what I'd call "constructive criticism".
Still, I understand that Skeli was not being unfair in his judgment.
It is what it is; the Pokeemerald-expansion is lacking.
In my previous post I decided to put my own, personal, super biased feelings aside and accept that.

 

[Shiny Miner]

The main issue is seeing this post as Elitism which it's clearly not
The thing is we all can agree decomps are better and we should always suggest Decomps to a new user if he don't like it and want to go to binary it's their choice
Rather than saying decomp are harder and binary is easier choose what you want you should always suggest decomps and let the user pick for himself
This kind of gatekeeping is keeping binary alive more than anything

What can we do if he or she starts with Binary, and also i as a binary hacker wouldn't say someone to go for decomps (unless he/she doesn't get binary etc.) Like here Deokishisu like to tell newbies now i think he wrote that all to just tell newbies the purposes, benefits of using decomps and that is it. That should be done in decomps part of this forum it is like advertising binary in game dev part of this forum XD , if he wanted to tell benefits that was better to not say that Stop binary hacking ; it is taking the whole community back . And yes Deokishisu if decomps are better then why the most favorite hack of people are binary like unbound or radical red? Though i see rare fans of decomps project like your hack , ROWE , Inclement Emerald but it is only seen that Pokemon Voyager is only progressing in the real decomp way you are telling huh?

 

[Doct0rLekter]

Howdy! Another lurker here, and I would like to bring some input. Going to put a short TL;DR right up at the top because I know that I am going to end up making this lengthy which makes it only reasonable I provide a quick, if incomplete, summary of my opinion on this matter:

TL;DR
While the author of the original post hasn't communicated this as effectively as would be ideal, I think he is mostly right. Decomps are where most people's time should be spent now. I understand that setting up a Linux environment is initially tedious which makes it difficult to overcome the barrier to entry; however, I assure any onlookers that the tedium of the initial barrier to entry is nothing compared to the tedium of offsets and injection. Sure, there are tools and bases that help keep that frustration from being as apparent, but even those tools can't match the power and ease of using a decomp once you get past setup.


First, let us get something out of the way: I am not someone with 20, 15, or even 5 years of experience in Pokémon ROM hacking. I am a humble twenty-seven-year-old father who came into this community because he wanted to make a bespoke Pokémon experience for his three-year-old. My opinions are based on this very specific perspective and will be very much influenced by such. It should also be noted that anything I say comes from the lens of someone who went to college for Game Design and now works in the manufacturing industry as a 'Systems and Control Engineer' (how I went from game design to an engineer in manufacturing is an interesting story for a different time). Why does this matter? While Game Design and the particular brand of engineering I work in are mostly focused on the design side of software and machine control (as opposed to actual programming of said systems), both require at least a cursory knowledge of programming. I haven't exactly been responsible for coding anything more monumental than a piece of software that reads and writes simple electrical signals and translates them into readable data, but the fact I've done any work at all with code certainly affects my opinion.

On to the meat. As mentioned, my sole reason to engage with ROM hacking was down to my kid. The little guy likes Pokémon and is still young enough that I probably have enough time to make a halfway decent Pokémon game by the time he has learned to read well enough to play it. With basic computer literacy and my own childhood affection for the series I figured he could be the envy of Kindergarten with a Pokémon experience designed specifically for him. I did some research and found this forum. What luck! An already bustling community of people with experience in just the sort of game I was trying to build couldn't have been more serendipitous from my perspective. I began to sink my teeth in, as I tend to do, by process of immersion. I read quite a few posts, a lot of tutorial threads and beginner directories, and finally started to see there were two options to start getting in there and making changes. Many of the sources I looked at seemed to say Binary Hacking was the easier of the two, "so," I thought. "Where better to start?"

At first, Binary Hacking seemed a solid choice. There were a ton of helpful tools and resources to begin my journey, but even here at the very beginning I realized something wasn't quite right. For one, none of these tools could be described as anything other than finicky. Sometimes they worked fine, sometimes they didn't work at all, and in an uncomfortably large number of cases they would straight up break something. Themselves, another tool, the ROM itself. I generally know better than to start a major project without being able to go back to a previous version; however, that's only helpful if you can easily trace what change broke the system. Binary Hacking doesn't really allow for that because the nature of its interaction with the ROM means that even a something that works once can behave differently upon doing it again. Be it a glitch in the tool, an interaction between different tools, interactions between the tools and unrelated system processes, or just human error. Some of these things do exist in other contexts as well; however, there are reliable tools to pinpoint problems and revert to working builds as needed. Even in electrical design I can measure voltages or revert to a previous iteration of a circuit if I cannot probe out the problem. The reversion itself can even provide valuable insight into the nature of the problem if changes are documented with enough granularity.
All the above culminated in significant wasted time and loss of effort, and one must note that I was coming into that with tools and tutorials perfected through the 20+ years where Binary Hacking has been around in the sense of creating an entirely new Pokémon experience. Imagine if I started work on this 10-years earlier? Regardless, I almost quit on the spot. If this was the easy way, then how would I ever fare with the hard way? It ended up being during a search for better or more comprehensive Binary Hack tools that I started seeing more about what decomps actually were. During my initial research I had sidelined Decomps because they were supposed to be hard to use, and no amount of extra power to make changes seemed worth it when I had no intention of making a living coding ROM Hacks (if such a thing were even possible). I saw more and more comments about tools like Porymap and Poryscript that made me take pause and dive into decomps.

It was a game changer. Suddenly, fiddling with offsets was no longer necessary. I was living in the source code and could even make deep changes. I didn't have to install an entire tool to edit trainer parties efficiently, or another tool to play with pokemon locations. Editing the overworld became a breeze with Porymap, and Poryscript made the asinine task of editing raw assembly into something much more efficient. I could make sweeping map changes, edit every single trainer's party, add or change items, and so much more in less time and without the ROM suddenly becoming inoperable. If there was a problem with something I did, I could see why it was incompatible. I had access to debug tools and compiler warnings. If all of this sounds like a lot of coding jargon: I get that, but the coding I am referring to is no more difficult than using a hexadecimal calculator and then injecting something you hope doesn't break the entire ROM into an offset. Coding knowledge helps, sure, but it isn't exactly a requirement. I was able to add a new options menu, turn all the HMs into items, implement a party wide Exp. Share, make a toggleable Repel item, and speed up things like the health bar all with only basic coding knowledge and zero prior experience with C or Assembly. Frankly, even that level of knowledge wouldn't have been necessary if I wasn't trying to apply modifications made for vanilla pokemon emerald into the Expansion. It's likely someone with enough computer literacy to download and use binary hacking tools could make just about any change they wanted without having to deal with a merge conflict. With just Porymap and the Expansion you would have access to almost every Pokemon species up to the previous generation and could then use that to emulate all but the most comprehensive Binary Hacks that have been released.

I am not going to try to force anyone to do something that is outside of their comfort zone, but please believe me when I warn you not to make the same mistake I did initially. Binary Hacking is *not* easy, nor is it even easier than a Decomp. The barrier to entry may be a smidgen lower since you theoretically don't need to learn anything to start pissing around in a Binary Hacking tool, but that is all you will be able to do without putting forth a similar level of effort to starting with Decomps. I do think the Decomp side of the scene has a long way to go in terms of lowering that apparent barrier to entry. A lot of folks on that side are focused on the possibilities of Decomp hacking that Binary Hacking literally cannot even begin to touch on, and in doing so have yet to make an onboarding process as easy as the, "just download a ROM and a tool and start fiddling" that Binary Hacking purports to have. Why, for instance, are we obsessed with using Linux at all? It is certainly possible to make a build system that can work easily and natively on Windows. With enough effort one could make an executable GUI application that is literally as easy as downloading it and running it. Bundle that bad boy with Porymap and you suddenly have every capability afforded to people who want to do Binary Hacks without coding, and you have it in a package that doesn't even necessitate downloading a potentially malicious ROM from a seedy website. Of course, I have not made such a tool, so who am I to critique a community that has already done so much work without compensation? Still, such a package really would show the ROM hacking community at large how much easier Decomps are while preserving the power of being able to change the source code itself.

 

[HunarPG]

What can we do if he or she starts with Binary, and also i as a binary hacker wouldn't say someone to go for decomps (unless he/she doesn't get binary etc.) Like here Deokishisu like to tell newbies now i think he wrote that all to just tell newbies the purposes, benefits of using decomps and that is it. That should be done in decomps part of this forum it is like advertising binary in game dev part of this forum XD , if he wanted to tell benefits that was better to not say that Stop binary hacking ; it is taking the whole community back . And yes Deokishisu if decomps are better then why the most favorite hack of people are binary like unbound or radical red? Though i see rare fans of decomps project like your hack , ROWE , Inclement Emerald but it is only seen that Pokemon Voyager is only progressing in the real decomp way you are telling huh?

You are completely missing the point Binary has never been good
Decomp is clearly better and if you don't think it is nothing can make you think unless you try it
And I have been in rom hacking seen for around 4 years(haven't done any major things but I am decently familiar with the community and have tried both binary and decomps)
And yes many hacks are still in Binary because it's been there for longer decomps have been out for a couple of years as the post goes that binary is stopping from people to switch to a better thing which is Decomps(that's like saying that a worse and outdated thing is best because it's popular it's same situation as using Vba instead of mGba)
And about best hacks being on Binary no that's just opinion based like I never liked Unbound and won't say it's one of the best hacks or best binary hacks either this would differ from person to person
For me Gaia is the best hack and it's moving to Decomps so decomp is better
And saying that Deok made this post to inform newbies about decomp is the correct thing this post might not be completely accurate and fine but it does tell the bitter truth to all binary hacker it's time to switch
Or if you can't because you are a binary fan or your hack is about to complete at least give good advice to new comers to at least try decomps and you clearly missed the point

 

[SuperSpyroDragon64]

You are entirely right to call decompilation hacking the better option compared to binary hacking.

People in denial about this will hate you for saying it, but you're right.

 

[destinedjagold]

My non-contributing meme aside, rom hacking is more or less a hobby to majority of people.
Whatever they find easier to spend their time on is up to them, as long as they're having fun.

I feel like OP's post should more or less be addressed towards those who take this ROM hacking seriously, not to casuals who just wanted to let their imaginations become reality in a short amount of time.

Then again I'm an old ROM hacking fossil, a remnant of the past who has no time to dive back into the scene, so what do I know?

 

[Hiroshi Sotomura]

I feel like OP's post should more or less be addressed towards those who take this ROM hacking seriously, not to casuals who just wanted to let their imaginations become reality in a short amount of time.

Then again I'm an old ROM hacking fossil, a remnant of the past who has no time to dive back into the scene, so what do I know?

We love you dw

As a moderator and a frequenter of the ROM hacking sections on PC and its Discord, there are times I've seen people pointing to binary hacking approaches or citing that it's easier. And yes, the setup for decomps is more of a pain in the ass than downloading a couple apps and going from there. But there's still plenty of people on PC who want to do a fairly serious project (though obviously, still hobbyist in nature) and they're being pointed to one solution. And on the other end, you have casual ROM hackers who may eventually be convinced to get serious about it. Plus, with kids also going through coding at school, I think it's a bit of a failure to throw them to something with antiquated methods and tools and shield them from the dreaded C programming (or tell a would-be programmer to just slip some C in get it converted and inserted into an offset — a far cry from modern-day programming).

(As an aside, I wouldn't call pokeemerald etc. modern-day programming either, being C and running on a slow CPU by today's standards, but the foundation isn't significantly different from how we build apps for phones, computers, etc. these days. With binary ROM hacking, there's really no foundation whatsoever.)

The first post is a relatively-informed (putting any opinion on its delivery) writing that I perceive as taking aim at those continuing to push one way. I notice myself an imbalance on PC, where decomps are favoured less in other users' suggestions and the only thing that might get someone started is the fact there's a section on PC at all.

People are very much maintaining the status quo by continually pushing users to solutions they're familiar with. Much like old tools and stuff people need to move on from (but perhaps less critical) people can't be constantly maintaining the quo by pushing binary ROM hacking constantly. We don't grow if we don't explore different solutions.

Edit: I've made a misleading argument that I can't properly cite, so I've edited that comment accordingly.

 

[HustlerJim]

I do see plenty of comments pointing people to binary hacks constantly citing that it's easier.
People are very much maintaining the status quo by continually pushing users to solutions they're familiar with.
people can't be constantly maintaining the quo by pushing binary ROM hacking constantly.

PLEASE show us actual examples of this happening then? You people always constantly say this as if it's happening 24/7 and yet I've never seen it, and no one ever shows me an example when I've asked. The only times binary tools get recommended are when:

1) the user is already working on a binary hack and suggesting decomp at this stage would be entirely unhelpful
2) all the user wants to do is a tiny change like change the shiny rate or replace a pokemon sprite, where binary is objectively the better way to get there
3) the user is still deciding whether to use binary or decomp and the ease of setting up binary is stated as an umbrella phrase AFTER the advantages of decomp are explained in detail and entire paragraphs have been written persuading the user that the initial setup of decomp is entirely achievable and will benefit them in the long run

You cannot seriously be taking issue with any of these approaches, they are ALL sensible. So there must be some other example of people going "use binary, it's better than decomp" that I've never seen and yet you have, so show it.

This argument has never been "binary VS decomp", it's always "do what you think is fun VS do what is objectively better". No binary hacker is constantly pushing anything, but decomp users love to push their agenda

EDIT: and if you're "a moderator and a frequenter of the ROM hacking sections on PC and its Discord" and you really "do see plenty of comments pointing people to binary hacks constantly citing that it's easier" AND you have a problem wit it, why don't you just take the responsibility to jump in and correct it when you see it, instead of complaining that it happens later on topics like this and thinking 'stop binary hacking' is a better solution than just correcting the status quo yourself. Apparently you bear witness to all this "pushing binary ROM hacking constantly" first-hand, choose to say nothing about it in the moment, and then act like it needs to be stopped as if you never had the ability to just point people to "explore different solutions" yourself. Would be a million times more effective at getting people to use decomp than this topic, that's for sure

 

[evanonline]

I think there can honestly be some confirmation bias. I see decomp evangelism constantly but I'm inclined to take a mod at their word about how they see the community :P I also see decomp praise much more in various romhacking discords (not necessarily PC's) and on the romhacks reddit - outside of the scope of managing this particular community.

I think above all else, this is a subject that doesn't need as much vitriol or bombast applied to it as it gets. It really shouldn't be a war. Again I want to reiterate what I said in my earlier post: decomps are the future but I truly think that making - and FINISHING - romhack projects on decomps, is better proof of the value of decomps than shouting down anyone still making binary hacks. But at the same time it is worth listening to why decomps are so important. It doesn't need to be something to get angry over either way - and honestly, I think most people with opinions on the subject have already made up their minds anyway. If you don't want to switch to decomps - don't. If someone wants to stick to binary - just let em.

Just don't ever listen if someone tells you to throw it all out and start over. A finished project is worth way more than an ambitious concept that goes nowhere. Not all of us want to push the boundaries - if realizing my simple ideas holds the scene back then I am perfectly happy to be selfish 😈

 

[Hiroshi Sotomura]

PLEASE show us actual examples of this happening then? You people always constantly say this as if it's happening 24/7 and yet I've never seen it, and no one ever shows me an example when I've asked. The only times binary tools get recommended are when:

1) the user is already working on a binary hack and suggesting decomp at this stage would be entirely unhelpful
2) all the user wants to do is a tiny change like change the shiny rate or replace a pokemon sprite, where binary is objectively the better way to get there
3) the user is still deciding whether to use binary or decomp and the ease of setting up binary is stated as an umbrella phrase AFTER the advantages of decomp are explained in detail and entire paragraphs have been written persuading the user that the initial setup of decomp is entirely achievable and will benefit them in the long run

You cannot seriously be taking issue with any of these approaches, they are ALL sensible. So there must be some other example of people going "use binary, it's better than decomp" that I've never seen and yet you have, so show it.

Mea culpa. The suggestion generally leans more to "decomps are harder than [x]" which I still think is a falsehood to peddle, but you're right in that there's limited examples of people actually actively pushing binary ROM hacking over decomps. I should be able to cite more recent ones rather than older ones from , but I'll admit that outside of noticing that a lot of new projects get started in binary in spite of there being new tools and solutions, a lot of what I'm thinking about people actively suggesting binary is assumed. My post is misleading to what's actually happening, so I apologise.

These are the kinds of comments I'm taking aim at (with no general fault to the users named in these posts and Discord messages):
https://www.pokecommunity.com/threads/488537 — I'll accept that in the first link, the OP in this post also found issue with using the decomps which do need to be addressed, via a tutorial, tool or otherwise. And also that I'm noticing the same person is consistently pushing binaries when I actually look back through some of the Discord chats and threads. Fun, and for this argument, it's a terrible oversight my part, so I'll spare bringing up further messages pushed from this person. (The thread in question also brings up that there's less research on LeafGreen as a base; I find this the wrong advice simply because I think this is a solved problem.)
https://discord.com/channels/157983957902819328/200749908368687104/943499193056637009 — "for most people"
https://discord.com/channels/157983957902819328/200749908368687104/888443496959197214 — misconceptions about what people may need to learn, particularly if someone wants to go further than the game's code will allow (like using ASM, or C compiled into ASM)

My other points I'm pushing still stand. I haven't stated directly that I take issues with the approaches you listed. Like I mentioned in that post you've selectively quoted, I'm interested in ensuring those who want to start something big know what they're getting into, because I want to see (and it's in my interests to promote, given, well, moderator and all) projects at PC and it pains me to see the same kinds of issues people encounter coming up constantly, especially sinceI'd encountered the same kinds of issues years ago. My intent hasn't changed: I want to see better approaches come up for those wanting to create a serious project should be consistently displayed in my posts through this entire thread. Though sometimes, that does start small.

And yes, I'm personally not pleased at the status quo. I've opted to not to go of my way to actively discourage it outside of this discourse because people will either remain steadfast on their approach, or they'll have existing hacks and they'll need to figure out on their own if switching up is a feasible option for them. Where I'm concerned, people can pick whatever approaches they want to do, but I do ultimately want to make new users are always informed in the approach they choose, and it starts with breaking down how hard it's stated to be.

This argument has never been "binary VS decomp", it's always "do what you think is fun VS do what is objectively better". No binary hacker is constantly pushing anything, but decomp users love to push their agenda

My thoughts on this are as such. Some may think the pushiness of the community probably ought to be toned down and not thrown in people's faces as often as they are. But on the same coin, if a user is encountering issues with an outdated tool, it then becomes someone's prerogative to push them to the right tools because the old ones are dated. As well, some approaches change and the older ones can either co-exist and be improved upon (although you can only go so far), or they need to be shoved out.

EDIT: and if you're "a moderator and a frequenter of the ROM hacking sections on PC and its Discord" and you really "do see plenty of comments pointing people to binary hacks constantly citing that it's easier" AND you have a problem wit it, why don't you just take the responsibility to jump in and correct it when you see it, instead of complaining that it happens later on topics like this and thinking 'stop binary hacking' is a better solution than just correcting the status quo yourself. Apparently you bear witness to all this "pushing binary ROM hacking constantly" first-hand, choose to say nothing about it in the moment, and then act like it needs to be stopped as if you never had the ability to just point people to "explore different solutions" yourself. Would be a million times more effective at getting people to use decomp than this topic, that's for sure

I've dropped a couple comments to date about my intention of expanding the sections (and will also seeking feedback for improvements for all the Fan Games sections in general) but I've been avoiding detailing plans in this thread because I'm not here to peddle them. I'll admit that I've opted to stay out of the discussions and allow the decomps scene — through the hacks that get posted to PC — to grow out on its own. I'm simply expressing my opinions on it now because they're relevant to this thread.

 

[PiaCRT]

Gen II Hacker here. As someone who started off with gen 3 way back in 2010 or so...

Disassembly and Decomps are what brought me back to the scene after moving to RPG Maker for 5 years. Back in 2010-2011 you had a lot of elitist rom hackers in the scene and as a newbie it was very hard to get started. I feel now with disassembly it's been more open than ever, with most devs sharing their source code in the Gen II scene. I'm happy to contribute to that.

With Generation III though I still see a lot of the elitism and hoarding that I experienced when I began all those years ago, and I'm glad that its pretty much completely gone in my scene. Nevermind that some emulators have actual toggles for Pokemon ROM Hacks because the older ones are so jank on actual hardware. The tools don't really make it easier. I learned that after a long time. Having a map editor and Notepad++ is all I've needed since I swapped to disassembly and I would never go back to binary hacking.

I can't speak for everyone, obviously. I can only speak for myself. Personally, binary is just way too tedious and prone to irreversible corruption and I would never recommend it to someone starting out.

 

[U.Flame]

The tools don't really make it easier. I learned that after a long time.

I really love your work on Gen 2! Regardless of generation, it's all a valid experience to have a history with this sort of thing.

It's definitely a subjective matter, as far as tools in particular go, my perspective as someone who grew up hacking binary and never really stopped, is that the tools have genuinely gotten much easier, better, and more reliable over the years, with the big one being Hex Maniac Advance. From my experience, most of the old tools that caused errant corruption have been updated or replaced by new ones, Advance Map being the last one of the bunch, and that's finally going to change with HMA's new map editing functionality. That seems to be a point of contention for people like the OP, that more resources have made the binary scene better and better.

I no longer have the young inexperienced perspective that I had as a kid, so I can't say with confidence which method would be easier for those new and inexperienced with the tools and options available nowadays. But I remember as a young kid, the bar to entry was so dramatic that grasping something as simple as XSE was something so far beyond my reach, that all I could hope to use was Advance Map and Advance Text. Definitely didn't make anything stable, but it was enough to bring my ideas to life without knowing the first thing about how anything worked. That's the bar to entry I think about when it comes to decomps. If I couldn't understand how scripts are put together, I probably would have had more difficulty with something like github or even Notepad++. They probably are the better option for people who are willing and able to learn it. But for those who can't or won't, I still see binary as a valid option which has only improved over time. I don't see why that could be a bad thing. Not that you in particular implied that, but generally to the people who do think that way.

 

[Tcoppy]

if a user is encountering issues with an outdated tool, it then becomes someone's prerogative to push them to the right tools because the old ones are dated.

Well, then it would just all boil down to personal choice, right? If said user is encountering issues with an outdated tool (albeit, that would still work for their application) and is being pushed to the "right tools," wouldn't it make as much sense for the user to be pushed maybe too far into the complete opposite end of the spectrum and continue to use a tool, that although may give them problems, ultimately help them create the product they are trying to create? Sure, say what you want about the objective quality of the work that will be created, but if the creator is fine with doing stuff their way even after being told of "better alternatives" (putting that in quotes because I believe that binary and decomps both have merits and shortcomings, like with any other tool or resource) , shouldn't their personal choice be respected?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In my opinion, like every similar discussion or rant in the past ("Romhackers should learn ASM in order to be legit in the community,""High quality hacks need to have custom routines with all of these features,""Romhackers do not need ASM or custom coding in their hacks for ____ reason(s)," etc.), the crux of all of the arguments and vitriol surrounding these debates comes down to stubbornness as opposed to acceptance. To put it crudely, even though I can see the pushback that may come my way, it's all a giant measuring contest. "My way is better than yours," so to speak.

When Pokemon Discovery was a thing, Le Pug and I had all these grand ideas and complex systems to make a romhack that used Pokemon as a base and literally nothing else (no gym badges and the like) that definitely would've been executed better with custom routines and coding that was way out of our comfort zones. In fact, ASM was so out of our comfort zones (a nicer way of saying we didn't want to or have the time to learn it lol), others were compensated to make routines for us (I think only one routine though, iirc) when necessary, and we just made prior existing features bend to our visions. I'll say it again, people were commissioned to create code for our free to play rom hack because we did not have the time or were not willing to dive into coding to achieve our project visions. And no, before anyone asks, the project did not get completed because of limited resources/tools or lack of determination (as far as learning coding or utilizing routines and the like), but rather lack of project dedication (at least, for my part) as both our computers died in very close time proximity taking all the files with them, and we were getting preoccupied with our own lives.

Granted, this was slightly before decomps really started to become a thing (at least in the gen 3 scene, even though there were some very slight rumblings) so I cannot honestly say for certain if things would have turned out differently or not. However, at least for where I was at the time, I think that I'd still be binary hacking for the most part, especially since I wasn't bothered to learn ASM to begin with let alone wrap my head around using a decomp. And again, that would have been my choice, for better or worse.

Why I shared this story here as it pertains to this discussion surrounding decomps and binary hacking, is that it was our choice as to whether or not we were going to use alternative tools to elevate our project. Much like it is a romhacker's choice to use decomps or to focus on binary romhacking. It can also be argued that it is one's choice to excercise and share their beliefs as to how they manage and create their projects. That's genuinely great! It is a natural part of a community or subculture's ecosystem to share and express different points of view or expertise, especially when it comes to a creative medium.

It crosses the line (and has always crossed the line, as far as my part within the community) when people, intentionally or otherwise, disrespect the choices of others, even if it is disguised under the veil of "guidance." This community has always had a problem with this, and even just lurking and seeing this now, a near-decade later, confirms to me that this is still a problem. It's why people come across as elitist even when they don't see themselves as elitist (I've had my fair share of incidents where I carried myself with this tone), because they are so genuine in their beliefs that their way is the right way of creating things, that they feel the need to make others see their points of view and have them contort to their beliefs, no matter how right they think they are. There is no regard to choice. It is their way, or that's it. Or maybe they don't feel like dedicating time to learn processess for a passion project that might give them some coding and slight game-dev experience, but nothing actually motivating or monetary, and don't see why others would even bother trying to elevate a 20+ year old game. From the outside looking in, no one seems to respect personal choice, and that's a giant problem, and that's why this debate happens again and again. I'd like to think that it is more of a vocal minority of people in each camp to cause these debates, but honestly, from what I've seen, and I hope I'm wrong nowadays with so many different ways for inclusivity and to get people involved in this community, I really think that there is a big division in peoples minds in regards to if they are "legit, veteran, romhackers" or "newbie hackers/non-hackers." and the more that mentality keeps setting in, the harder it will be for the community move forward. Stubbornness and ignorance is holding back the community, not binary romhacking.

Hot take: Very ballsy thread title and opening! Creative way to get a dialogue going, one way or another.

 

[HustlerJim]

Gen II Hacker here. As someone who started off with gen 3 way back in 2010 or so...

Disassembly and Decomps are what brought me back to the scene after moving to RPG Maker for 5 years. Back in 2010-2011 you had a lot of elitist rom hackers in the scene and as a newbie it was very hard to get started. I feel now with disassembly it's been more open than ever, with most devs sharing their source code in the Gen II scene. I'm happy to contribute to that.

With Generation III though I still see a lot of the elitism and hoarding that I experienced when I began all those years ago, and I'm glad that its pretty much completely gone in my scene. Nevermind that some emulators have actual toggles for Pokemon ROM Hacks because the older ones are so jank on actual hardware. The tools don't really make it easier. I learned that after a long time. Having a map editor and Notepad++ is all I've needed since I swapped to disassembly and I would never go back to binary hacking.

I can't speak for everyone, obviously. I can only speak for myself. Personally, binary is just way too tedious and prone to irreversible corruption and I would never recommend it to someone starting out.

This is frankly the issue. The gen3 tools are not what the gen2 tools were. The gen3 tools are not even what they were just 2 years ago. HMA alone has solved both the problems of having to care about free space and offsets, and the problem of irreversible corruption, and yet these are always brought up when listing the cons of binary. I'm sorry that the gen2 tools weren't enough to make it easier, but this really doesn't apply here. When you realise that HMA getting as good as it is is exactly what triggered the OP to make this thread (his words, not mine) you realise it's not about bettering the scene for any user. It's some weird jealousy that decomp has to be only good way forward like it has been in other scenes, and the mere thought that gen3 binary tools have become actually usable to the point where it's a valid discussion is somehow scary to decomp hackers. Imagine feeling the need to beg people to stop binary hacking. If they had the ability to show people that decomp is objectively superior now and binary isn't worth thinking about, it would happen automatically. But thanks to binary developers actually innovating recently while decomp users show no progress outside of the pret discord, they can't expect people to believe this on simple assumption any more and have to resort to writing a new testament.

 

[Deokishisu]

I see a lot of people taking the enlightened centrism approach and being like, "yeah, decomps are great but binary hacking has its merits!" as (what I assume is) an attempt to sound reasonable. Anyone who has used the decomps for any appreciable amount of time knows that that is an unreasonable position. The magnitude of the difference between them is that great. A lot of these fervent defenses of binary hacking are coming from an emotional place (which I'm sure was partly or mostly evoked from my post being aggressive, which was not my intention) or from ignorance of how working with the decomps is.

There have been some posts talking about kids being too naive to use XSE, let alone anything else. U. Flame's post being a good example of this. If a kid can only figure out how to use Advance Text and AMap, they would still have an easier time with the decomps. Porymap is more user-friendly that AMap and the kid could search for the text they're looking to change and edit it without regard for offsets or repointing with no need to understand scripting. Even so, the terrible scripting system has a replacement in Poryscript that is easier to learn and has robust documentation to get the hypothetical kid started if they wanted to actually script. You don't necessarily need to understand or even be aware of what's going on under the hood to follow step-by-step setup instructions and run make after you've made your edits. Not to mention, starting the kids on the decomps gives them the opportunity to learn real skills if they decide to try out some C. If the decomps were around ~18 years ago when I was first starting as a clueless kid, I would've been programming for this entire time. I can't even imagine how important that would have been for my life and its trajectory. Don't rob kids of this opportunity by leading them astray.

This post and its blowback into the pret Discord has started discussions on making setting up the decomps more accessible. I understand that the setup of the decomps can be daunting, but again, the install instructions are right there with everything you need and there are videos and other posts on this forum that go through it as well as a ton of people willing to troubleshoot issues with you. People are afraid of the command line and afraid of reading its output for some reason. It is just another tool. Git has GitHub Desktop which is a GUI tool to assist with managing commits so that you will only have to touch the command line to initiate a pull/merge from another branch and to run make to get a ROM with your changes. If you count GitHub Desktop, you only need four tools to get going. Porymap, GitHub Desktop, a graphics editor, and a text editor (but preferably an IDE like VS Code). Merge conflicts are git protecting you from screwing up your project (basically stopping the equivalent of applying multiple patches onto a binary hack that overwrite each other). They are there to help you, not to wall you out from continuing, and there are always people willing to help you resolve them.

We have had people show up in pret that could barely use a computer and have helped them get started successfully. A lot of you are self-depreciating and depreciating of hypothetical new people in the scene by implying that lots of people are incapable. The vast, overwhelming majority of you are not incapable, just resistant to change. Decomp hacking is the easier, quicker, and better option for all but the simplest of hacks. Again, I encourage people to at least try for a few days before throwing up their hands and giving up.

EDIT: Also, I've seen some tangents about ASM in this thread and I just want to be clear: you DO NOT need to know or do any ASM to work with the decomps. I do not know ASM and have never touched it while using the decomps.

 

[HustlerJim]

The sheer pompousness of assuming that people against your opinion have never used decomp 🤮
Maybe you should have spent some of those 18 years of rom hacking learning how to present an argument that people will actually take seriously

Gen 3 decomp is the only genuine tech advancement that has had to beg people to switch to them instead of just you know, letting it happen 😂

 

[HunarPG]

I would much prefer begging for a better tech advancement than begging or even suggesting people to use an objectively worse and inferior option

 

[HustlerJim]

I would much prefer begging for a better tech advancement than begging or even suggesting people to use an objectively worse and inferior option

If it's so much better you shouldn't have to beg at all ;)