That dreaded topic: religion

[McGraw]

They find dinosaurs with spear hole through their skulls. now didn't science say that men weren't around when Dinosaurs were?

I actually laughed out loud at this, for real. If that's the best you can do for your argument...

Science is prepared to hold its hands up and admit that it does not have all the answers... yet. The stuff that is proved wrong tend to be commonly accepted theories that are overruled with new evidence. Every so often there is also a scandal involving crooked scientists. Otherwise, scientific fact is by and large exactly that - fact; supported by physical, mathematical and scrutinised laboratory evidence.

A related article: guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1785654,00.html (evading the URL ruling for people with < 15 posts... worst rule ever)

 

[Zone]

God doesn't want his followers to die. God has never once informed us that we need war to prove ourself to him or any of that. God doesn't want war, nor does he cause it.

As a young child, I was taught that God doesn't "make" anything happen. God shows us the path we should be on, encourages us to follow it, but allows us our own choices. He does not pressure us to the point of total control. We are, in the end, responsible for our own actions and our own destines.

Need an example of how God doesn't want war? Check out Jesus, the Chrisian Messiah. Jesus was thought to be this huge war hero. He was the Messiah, and people believed he was going to lead the people in the ultimate war against their enemies, thus saving the religion.

But that isn't what Jesus was sent to do.

He lived the human life and experienced it as we do. He died to save us from our ultimate enemy, sin. God doesn't want us to go to war to solve our problems. If He wanted that, surely his one and only son would have been the greatest war hero of all time.

In bna_li's post, which is the one I was responding to, he stated that God allowed Israel to go to war multiple times to keep belief in him alive, and I responded with what you responded to.

 

[Lord Mike]

God doesn't want his followers to die. God has never once informed us that we need war to prove ourself to him or any of that. God doesn't want war, nor does he cause it.

As a young child, I was taught that God doesn't "make" anything happen. God shows us the path we should be on, encourages us to follow it, but allows us our own choices. He does not pressure us to the point of total control. We are, in the end, responsible for our own actions and our own destines.

Need an example of how God doesn't want war? Check out Jesus, the Chrisian Messiah. Jesus was thought to be this huge war hero. He was the Messiah, and people believed he was going to lead the people in the ultimate war against their enemies, thus saving the religion.

But that isn't what Jesus was sent to do.

He lived the human life and experienced it as we do. He died to save us from our ultimate enemy, sin. God doesn't want us to go to war to solve our problems. If He wanted that, surely his one and only son would have been the greatest war hero of all time.

That's a well-stated comment.

 

[bna_li]

In bna_li's post, which is the one I was responding to, he stated that God allowed Israel to go to war multiple times to keep belief in him alive, and I responded with what you responded to.

What I was saying is that he allowed war so that they would turn their hearts back to him. When they were worshipping idols, that is exactly what he did. I may be alone in this one, but that is my belief.

When I said God does not love peace, I was going over board there. He does love peace. And justice. Those are a few of his attributes.

God has a few different wills. A specific will and a general will.

He does not will for war, but allows it to happen. For His purposes.

 

[Envy]

I'm full of what I am, but I break the rules and don't really believe in my god. Least there's like many gods, there all the same to me . . . I mean they all have the same beliefs.

 

[Lord Mike]

There are a lot of athiests here.

 

[Envy]

There are a lot of athiests here.

LOL! Yea, true . . . um u double posted.

 

[Kalylia]

YoMama, you may want to get rid of one of those posts. *smiles* They say exactly the same thing.

Zone, you have my apologies. The last thing I wanted to do was snap harshly and unnecissarilly.

bna_li, I'm afraid that I must disagree slightly with your post. Peace, Justice, and Love aren't "a few of His attributes", they are what makes him as a whole. God is, in essence, pure love. Being such, peace and justice are exactly what he wants all the time.

 

[Lord Mike]

I deleted my duplicate.

I think Love is His most important attribute.

 

[bna_li]

God doesn't want his followers to die. God has never once informed us that we need war to prove ourself to him or any of that. God doesn't want war, nor does he cause it.

I believe that everything that happens has been pre-determined from the beginning of time. You, me, and everyone else are here because he created us.

Need an example of how God doesn't want war? Check out Jesus, the Chrisian Messiah. Jesus was thought to be this huge war hero. He was the Messiah, and people believed he was going to lead the people in the ultimate war against their enemies, thus saving the religion.

But that isn't what Jesus was sent to do.

He lived the human life and experienced it as we do. He died to save us from our ultimate enemy, sin. God doesn't want us to go to war to solve our problems. If He wanted that, surely his one and only son would have been the greatest war hero of all time.

It should actually be the other way around. He is not a war hero BECAUSE he came to die for our sins. God wants us to see that He loves us so much, He sent His son to die for us. If he was a war hero, none of us would be going to Heaven. You can't have it both ways.

Now, if God loves us so much, why doesn't He let ALL of us go to heaven?

Aha.

Because He is a God of justice AS WELL, not just love.

In the Bible, God frequently brings the Israelites to battle. And He also says, Don't leave anything alive.

1 Samuel 15:3
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Kill everyone. And spare them not. Do you think that sounds like a God who despises war? No, those are the words of a just God.

 

[Kalylia]

I never said that Jesus wasn't a war hero for any reason OTHER than the fact that he came to save us from sin. All I said was that the ancient Israelites believed him to be a war hero. That's who THEY thought the Messiah was. None of them understood, not even the deciples, until after the ressurection.

And yes, your bible verse does say that God wants war. But... I do believe that some verses overtake others. For instance...

The 10 commandments.

Much more important than every little inane verse in the bible.

One of those commandments states thus:

"Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Does that sound like God wants war? Those are His ACTUAL commandments, the things he TRULY wants us to do.

Another problem with your bible verse. It's from the Old Testament. Most of the Old Testament is no longer followed or believed to be true. The Christian religion is based on the teaching of the New Testament. At least, the modern Christian religion is. As, if we were to follow the Old Testament, we'd still be killing wives and children for disobedience and never, EVER divorcing anyone. Blacks would still be enslaved and slavery in general would be encouraged. Anyone with a contagious disease would be sent away to live in solitude and shunned from society.

That doesn't sound like the modern world to me.

The New Testament teaches love, forgiveness, and the true ways of God. The Old Testament is now mostly used for inspiration and good stories to show God's power for smaller children.

Even if we were to agree that your verse held as much weight as the commandment and that it being in the Old Testament meant nothing, I have many more verses that urge peace, love, and forgiveness.

Colossians - Chapter 3:12-17

12. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
15. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
17. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

The First letter of John - Chapter 4 :7-12

7. Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
10. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12. No-one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Romans - Chapter 13:10

10. Loves does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

And the best one of all...

Isaiah - Chapter 2:4

4.And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Most of those were taken from the Old Testament on the ground that if you don't like my argument on the Old Testament holding little water, I still prove a point.

If you need more, I'll be happy to oblige. *smiles*

 

[Red530]

They find dinosaurs with spear hole through their skulls. now didn't science say that men weren't around when Dinosaurs were?

Sorries, but that example wouldn't prove Science wrong.

It's saying that Scientists find new things all the time. I beleive that there may have been beings at that time.

 

[Emperor ServingSpoon]

Ummm.... If most of the old testament is no longer followed or believed to be true, why is it still in the Bible? We don't still follow the laws of Moses(as they were meant for the Israelites, not Christians in general), but I was pretty sure that the 10 commandments and majority of the old testament was still followed. I mean, Jesus did make reference to the books of the old testament every now and then, so it's pretty obvious He still thought them relevant...

As for the whole heaven/hell part from earlier... Think of it this way... If you don't believe in God, why would you want to go to heaven and live with Him, anyway? Everyone has sinned, and as such, being a nice person isn't enough. You need to believe in God and give up that sin to be able to recieve the gift of everlasting life. My particular denomination doesn't believe in Hell as some place where everyone burns eternally as a punishment, but rather as just what happens to the world after the second coming of Jesus. If you don't believe in God, you won't burn eternally. I mean, your body isn't even made for that kind of thing... You'll just won't live eternally. So it's more like you not getting the gift than you getting a punishment... Sort of...

As for McGraw's statements of no right and wrong... It may be situational at times, but really, if someone kills everyone you love, that's pretty wrong whether they think so or not. You can claim that there's no right and wrong, but then there is basically no meaning to ever doing anything good, and then you're likely to just end up rotting away in jail when you get caught for all the things you've done wrong that you have no problem with but every single other person in the human race does. Well... Unless that particular region has a death penalty...

 

[McGraw]

It may be situational at times, but really, if someone kills everyone you love, that's pretty wrong

And I agree with you entirely; you probably won't find anyone who differs in opinion. However, the concepts are abstract and undefinible in precise terms. Therefore, do they exist? It's a philosophical point of view. Open your mind and watch it spin ^_^

 

[bna_li]

I never said that Jesus wasn't a war hero for any reason OTHER than the fact that he came to save us from sin. All I said was that the ancient Israelites believed him to be a war hero. That's who THEY thought the Messiah was. None of them understood, not even the deciples, until after the ressurection.

And yes, your bible verse does say that God wants war. But... I do believe that some verses overtake others. For instance...

The 10 commandments.

Much more important than every little inane verse in the bible.

One of those commandments states thus:

"Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Does that sound like God wants war? Those are His ACTUAL commandments, the things he TRULY wants us to do.

Another problem with your bible verse. It's from the Old Testament. Most of the Old Testament is no longer followed or believed to be true. The Christian religion is based on the teaching of the New Testament. At least, the modern Christian religion is. As, if we were to follow the Old Testament, we'd still be killing wives and children for disobedience and never, EVER divorcing anyone. Blacks would still be enslaved and slavery in general would be encouraged. Anyone with a contagious disease would be sent away to live in solitude and shunned from society.

That doesn't sound like the modern world to me.

The New Testament teaches love, forgiveness, and the true ways of God. The Old Testament is now mostly used for inspiration and good stories to show God's power for smaller children.

Even if we were to agree that your verse held as much weight as the commandment and that it being in the Old Testament meant nothing, I have many more verses that urge peace, love, and forgiveness.

Colossians - Chapter 3:12-17

12. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
15. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
17. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

The First letter of John - Chapter 4 :7-12

7. Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
10. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12. No-one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Romans - Chapter 13:10

10. Loves does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

And the best one of all...

Isaiah - Chapter 2:4

4.And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Most of those were taken from the Old Testament on the ground that if you don't like my argument on the Old Testament holding little water, I still prove a point.

If you need more, I'll be happy to oblige. *smiles*

"The 10 commandments.

Much more important than every little inane verse in the bible.

One of those commandments states thus:

Love thy neighbour as thyself."

I'm sorry, but that is not an actual commandment. It was from the New Testament, when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisee. Not from the Ten Commandments.

You are exaggerating. As Emperor_ServingSpoon said, if it was not important, why would Jesus quote from it? More important, maybe, is if it is "no longer followed or believed to be true" why is it still a part of the Bible?

The Bible was put together by a few people. Can't remember the date.
Now, if they put the entire Old Testament in by error, why would the New Testament be any different?

Then, when you try to take something out of the Ten Commandments it becomes totally unimportant. Because THE OLD TESTAMENT is ALL/MOSTLY WRONG.

"As, if we were to follow the Old Testament, we'd still be killing wives and children for disobedience and never, EVER divorcing anyone. Blacks would still be enslaved and slavery in general would be encouraged. Anyone with a contagious disease would be sent away to live in solitude and shunned from society."

Show me some verses that prove that when wives or children disobeyed, they would be killed. As for divorce, I still don't believe in it, or encourage it.

You are preaching the New Gospel. Example: God loves everyone, and He won't want anyone to go to hell. Most of your texts are from the New Testament. But God was just that. He was also an angry God. He put His own people, the Israelites, to death, when they were disobeying. What you're trying to focus on, is that God is a merciful, loving God and won't really punish anyone who's wrong.

Now. Here is my version: God loves you. And, depending on His will, you might go to Hell or go to Heaven. He will hold you accountable for everything that you've said and thought and done when you are in heaven. He has a wonderful plan for your life, but that includes suffering, and pain.

If you asked someone to choose, do you think they'd pick mine?

No. Because it sounds too hard.

That is why people nowadays only emphasize the love.

But I think it's wrong.

 

[Kalylia]

How the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) generally viewed women:
Women's behavior was extremely limited in ancient times, much as the women of Afghanistan during the recent Taliban oppression. They were:

Unmarried women were not allowed to leave the home of their father.
Married women were not allowed to leave the home of their husband.
They were normally restricted to roles of little or no authority.
They could not testify in court.
They could not appear in public venues.
They were not allowed to talk to strangers.
They had to be doubly veiled when they left their homes.

(https://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm source and specific verses)

And yes, I was slightly exaggerating. But most of the Old Testament isn't followed today because of the very harsh laws and views. Yes, it is still part of the bible. But that doesn't mean we live by every word of it.

As for the otehr topics I adressed, I will need to get home so I can consult my bible. I'll have better things for you on Friday.

 

[~Ozy~]

If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.

Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

This is in reference to a woman presented as a virgin as a wife who could not be proved as such.

In any case, I take it that these passages prove your point, my love?

 

[bna_li]

How the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) generally viewed women:
Women's behavior was extremely limited in ancient times, much as the women of Afghanistan during the recent Taliban oppression. They were:

Unmarried women were not allowed to leave the home of their father.
Married women were not allowed to leave the home of their husband.
They were normally restricted to roles of little or no authority.
They could not testify in court.
They could not appear in public venues.
They were not allowed to talk to strangers.
They had to be doubly veiled when they left their homes.

(https://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm source and specific verses)

And yes, I was slightly exaggerating. But most of the Old Testament isn't followed today because of the very harsh laws and views. Yes, it is still part of the bible. But that doesn't mean we live by every word of it.

As for the otehr topics I adressed, I will need to get home so I can consult my bible. I'll have better things for you on Friday.

Hm. So you agree... What do you have to say about that commandment not being a part of the ten?

 

[Red530]

I thought it was one of the ten...There's something similar to it.

 

[bna_li]

If it be so: Show me.....