Tulsa, Oklahoma

[Hands]

I've pointed folks towards FBI statistics time and again yet... also, being unarmed does not make you 'unarmed' if anyone really wanted to get technical.

2014 saw 660 personal weapon homicides :D FBI yet again.

On the note of this incident. Utterly tragic, however, I can not see the suspect when he was shot, nor was the video feed clear enough to tell if the window was down or if he moved from the vehicle.

I find it extremely hard to believe that three cops woke up and said "let's go kill us a ******". It's a nightmare, shootings. Paperwork, investigations, suspensions, counseling, psychiatrics, colonoscopies... okay, maybe not the last one but it sure feels that way sometimes.

What I am more concerned about is departmental procedure. Why was the suspect allowed to walk back to his vehicle? Why was he placing his hands on the vehicle; it could be just the CHP but interlocking fingers behind the head or back is proper, unless procedure changed. Or if this department uses completely different methods.

Why were there aerial units? If it's just me, but I heard 'code 303' somewhere in there (shots fired) well before the suspect was shot. Or maybe I imagined him saying 'code'...

Where is the dash cam? Were there body cams? There had to have been verbal commands, of course. Police tend to shout and yell for compliance before resorting to force.

Inconclusive. I need to know more. I need another angle. I need audio, I need the dash cam. The defense would rip the prosecution to shreds over lack of footage. I see the suspect fall from shots, but that is about it. I don't see the suspect before the aerial unit got there or while he was out of view on the passanger's side. I'm leery of falling into the Ferguson trap again even for a second.

Until I see a dash cam or a report proceeding the events that lead up to Mr. Suspect's death I can't decide. Right now, from what I can see is 50-50 split. He could have ignored commands, I have no audio. He could have reached, I have no visual. He could have complied fully, I have no audio. He could have complied completely, I have no visual. That's an issue for me. I want to believe both sides, but I admit I lean more with officers so I am a tad biased. But I don't think I'm one to wring his hands and place all doubt on the dead man. Where the hell is the dash cam?

Edit: okay. I found the dash cam. I still can't see ****. All the officers block the view, so nice going dip****s. I read conflicting reports of the suspect complying, not complying being argumentative... that has become all speculation at this point. More investigation is needed in that regard. However, I do note that a tazer was deployed before he was shot. Why in Sam hill and the great blue blazes?

So, still inconclusive on events up to and leading towards the conclusion, but not the Ned Flanders result. The suspect was indeed tapered before he was shot though, that I can't defend. She ****ed up royally. Now, that isn't to say that Mr. Suspect was being totally compliant. He out weighs and out heights the officer in question and he was tapered. If he was being compliant he would not have needed to be tapered. I believe that. If he was however, being totally compliant, and was tapered anyway this is a problem that rests solely on the shoulders of this department and their failings to train their officers accordingly.

So, my new opinion is that the suspect was tapered, then shot. I do not know the rate of compliance, and I don't know what lead up to this shooting because all I see is the responding back up vehicle's dash cam. I have not found the first responder's dash cam video, so that still has play. Wrongful death, most likely. Compliant suspect? Up for debate still.

Police brutality epidemic? Hardly.

Edit: auto correct errors.

You mean like the blood stain on the outside of his car window?

Stop defending pieces of human garbage like the cops that murdered this man.

 

[Somewhere_]

MORE white people are killed by police, yes, but it's black people that are killed at a higher rate.

Blacks commit disproportionately more crime. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus08.pdf

This means that white people are still killed at a higher RATE by police when taking into consideration on which groups commit more crimes. Again, its not a race issue. Its an abuse of power issue if anything.

 

[Grey Wind]

Blacks commit disproportionately more crime. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus08.pdf

This means that white people are still killed at a higher RATE by police when taking into consideration on which groups commit more crimes. Again, its not a race issue. Its an abuse of power issue if anything.

No it doesn't, because there's no correlation between areas with high crime rates and the rates of people killed by police. There's still a disproportionate amount of unarmed black people being shot by law enforcement.

 

[Controversial?]

wow, imagine being american and trying to justify the massacre of your own country's minorities by the very people who are supposed to serve them. huh.

 

[CoffeeDrink]

wow, imagine being american and trying to justify the massacre of your own country's minorities by the very people who are supposed to serve them. huh.

Well, #BLM launched off of a lie, so... I wouldn't trust all the noise everyone is making over the 'bad officers'.

The FBI tracks all of this data and it's free to access. As sheep said, and I think it's clear cut, blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. I've been called old uncle Tom a few times, but it's true, unfortunately, that blacks make up about 13% and commit about 40% of all violent crimes.

Let's not forget, that until recently, Hispanics were lumped into the Caucasian group for whatever reason, so the actual numbers may be even higher.

Blacks are about 60% more likely to attack a white person than a black person is to be attacked by a white person. FBI, again.

More than a few of us have put links to their tools and data, but simple searches can yield results when looking tactically. If you don't know how their database works or how their graphs function, you can always call and ask them to help you:

"If you have questions about preparing or submitting requests, you may e-mail [email protected] or call our FOIA Requester Service at Center (540) 868-1535 to hear helpful recorded information."

DO NOT CALL THEIR 1-800 NUMBER! I doubt you have any information on terrorist attacks or criminal activity.

 

[Kanzler]

Blacks are about 60% more likely to attack a white person than a black person is to be attacked by a white person. FBI, again.

To be fair, there are more white people than black people.

 

[tokyodrift]

The fact that he was killed really isn't the most upsetting part of this. For me it's when the officers who were overhead in the chopper said, "That looks like a bad dude too." I'm sorry, but how in the hell can you attest that he was indeed a "bad guy" from being in a goddamn helicopter. The officer who shot the guy even admitted to "tunnel visioning" on him.

EDIT: I just got a notification that the officer who shot Crutcher has been charged with manslaughter.

 

[EC]

The officer has just been charged with first-degree manslaughter.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tulsa-police-officer-charged-mans-death-203750472.html

 

[Kanzler]

Also, I didn't know the officer was a woman. I noticed that I was quite shocked when that was revealed to me. Did anyone else have similar feelings?

 

[Somewhere_]

No it doesn't, because there's no correlation between areas with high crime rates and the rates of people killed by police. There's still a disproportionate amount of unarmed black people being shot by law enforcement.

Drug-related crime is not violent crime. to be honest this surprised me, do you have anything on the war on drugs with police violence? If you do, ill rethink my position.

I was also shocked that the shooter was a woman. Usually they are men. Although it doesnt change the fact that the action was wrong.

 

[CoffeeDrink]

To be fair, there are more white people than black people.

Yes, I know. But there still was that bit where Hispanics were lumped in with whites. So it'll probably be a couple years before we see a real change in numbers.

 

[Livewire]

Of course not, but I do challenge the notion of police shootings to be race-motivated in the aggregate. Individually, of course it occurs, but not to any notable extent.

What else explains these repeated shootings, other than the Cop is either culturally or socially conditioned, consciously or unconsciously, to be more wary or afraid of a black man in a situation like this than a white guy? That is institutional racism in action - observable, quantifiable. And that's the root of the entire problem.

 

[Hands]

Also, I didn't know the officer was a woman. I noticed that I was quite shocked when that was revealed to me. Did anyone else have similar feelings?

Not really, I'm sure the training for female cops is just as lacking as it is for male cops.

 

[Corrin]

Why am I not surprised? I am a bit surprised it's a female cop though as women tend to be less violent I think. Any stats on that?
It's horrible how this is seemingly allowed to keep happening, glad she was charged at least.

 

[Controversial?]

Well, #BLM launched off of a lie, so... I wouldn't trust all the noise everyone is making over the 'bad officers'.

The FBI tracks all of this data and it's free to access. As sheep said, and I think it's clear cut, blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. I've been called old uncle Tom a few times, but it's true, unfortunately, that blacks make up about 13% and commit about 40% of all violent crimes.

Let's not forget, that until recently, Hispanics were lumped into the Caucasian group for whatever reason, so the actual numbers may be even higher.

Blacks are about 60% more likely to attack a white person than a black person is to be attacked by a white person. FBI, again.

wow, imagine being racist and trying to ignore the issue of economic class and how the deprivation of opportunities to one minority group - due to the internalised racism of american society - makes them more susceptible to committing crimes. huh.

also once you start justifying murder that's basically it for you mayn

 

[Kanzler]

I mean, usually we think of men as being the initiators of violence and so it's easy to accuse male police officers of an unwarranted violent act because that's all we see. But I really had to stop and think when I found out the gender of the cop in this scenario. Since when do we think of women as aggressors of police brutality? For me, it was a very novel realisation.

 

[CoffeeDrink]

wow, imagine being racist and trying to ignore the issue of economic class and how the deprivation of opportunities to one minority group - due to the internalised racism of american society - makes them more susceptible to committing crimes. huh.

also once you start justifying murder that's basically it for you mayn

Uncle Tom is a character in Harriet Stowes novel Uncle Tom's Cabin. As urban slang, it is often used to accuse a black person of throwing other black people under the proverbial bus. So, if what half of your beliefs are true that means that a) I'm racist against blacks and b) I promote murder. Well so now I'm racist against blacks guys. That will be news to me and my dad, who is still in prison by the way, and the rest of my family. Finally someone on their side acknowledges that blacks can be racist, praise be!

Haha, seriously though. I never said that criminality had anything to do with skin color. In fact, if you called the FBI and actually talked with them you might get them to tell you that two of the largest gangs operating in the US, 8th Street and MS-13, are both Hispanic!

Also here: FBI Homicide by race. Also, Kanzler, this is what I meant when Hispanics didn't get their own slot in race. They're lumped with white/hispanic or Latino and not all departments provide that data. This rings true on several documents for different governmental agencies.

On this shooting, I believe it was an accident. I'm not saying it's okay, but I doubt she wanted to shoot him 'just because' (I did say it was a she, previously right?). Unfortunately this shit happens. Some deaths are accidental and unfortunate. So she'll probably be charged with manslaughter, but not criminal manslaughter. The charges will probably be dropped and it will be filed under accidental death and the department will pay out the nose to the family.

I still want to know more about the events leading up to the event. He wasn't tasered because he was being a nice guy. We've heard of things like this before. Cop yells out 'taser' and accidentally shoots the assailant because he grabbed the wrong tool (this happened in CA back in, like 96, so I'll be damned about remembering), or a suspect is shot while down. Anyone remember David Kassick? Probably not, he's white. So anyways, if you're a criminal you're a criminal. It doesn't matter your skin. It's just the facts that I point at, not some make believe garbage I was accused of. 13% commits 40% of crime. There isn't a reason why this should be and I never said I liked this fact at all.

 

[zakisrage]

Great. More Black Lives Matter nonsense.

 

[Grey Wind]

Drug-related crime is not violent crime. to be honest this surprised me, do you have anything on the war on drugs with police violence? If you do, ill rethink my position.

I'm not really sure why drug related crime is relevant? In an ideal world anyway, deadly force should only be used in the event of violent crime. Some of said violent crime could be drug related, some could not. I don't know what singling it out would prove in the face of the overwhelming statistical evidence that black people are disproportionately targeted.

Great. More Black Lives Matter nonsense.

Why is your reaction to someone being shot dead to complain about Black Lives Matter "nonsense"? Where does the OP mention BLM?

 

[Somewhere_]

I'm not really sure why drug related crime is relevant? In an ideal world anyway, deadly force should only be used in the event of violent crime. Some of said violent crime could be drug related, some could not. I don't know what singling it out would prove in the face of the overwhelming statistical evidence that black people are disproportionately targeted.

Because the war on drugs disproportionately hurts the black population because they have more drugs. I am 100% against the drug war, but selling/consuming/holding drugs are nonviolent crimes, but are still subject to police raids and stuff. Just looking at violent crime to explain deaths to police is inaccurate is what I'm saying.