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The EU Federation

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There has been a lot of talk recently about a potential federalisation of the EU, a concept which is being strongly pushed by major political parties from various EU countries, in order to unite all EU nations under one 'roof' with an overall governing body and economy.

Do you think that this should be allowed to happen, and why/why not? Do you think that language/cultural barriers would cause the process to be unable to transition smoothly, or do you think that people will be able to feel fully represented by a government of a different language/culture? Do you think the richer countries of the EU should have to pay more for the poorer regions to catch up in a further shared wealth dynamic, or do you think that promoting the poorer regions in the short term is makes great economic sense for the entire EU?

Curious to hear your thoughts on these questions and more! For the record I am pro-EU federation, but will go into this later.
 

Mewtwolover

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Federalisation of the EU should never be allowed to happen, it would be disaster to European nations. UK already decided to leave the sinking ship named EU and I hope other EU countries will follow suit and take their independence back.
 
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Arsenic

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I've always thought the EU should be one giant nation. They'd be one of the strongest in the world and it brings us one step closer to having less flags for the species to kill each other over.
 

ShinyUmbreon189

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It's not really a good idea, I mean look at America.. what's next, a one world government? It's what they're pushing for anyways.
 

Ivysaur

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It's my lifelong dream. Small nation states are just a waste of time and economic potential and a source for pointless conflict about whose grass is greener. Bring on multiple languages, a single budget that actually treats everyone fairly, and proper EU Government that makes sense, instead of the mishmash of power in Brussels nobody understands.

Nationalism is a scourge of mankind and the sooner it's erradicated off the face of the Earth, the better for all.

For languages, I think there already is a pan-european language (English) that is pretty much understood anywhere. But I'm all for including all sort of language programs in schools. Having tens of major languages is something that should be treasured and used as a bridge, not as a barrier. And- to be honest, all countries have poorer and richer regions. Are the Germans "wasting" billions of euros every year propping up the East? Should Wales be abandoned as hopeless? Redistribution and the reduction of inequality are necessary requirements for social peace and stability. And I think the strict spending rules -which I do not denounce- the "northern" states insisted upon in exchange for transfers could be implemented far more efficiently with a single budget, tax system and Finance ministry.

Federalisation of the EU should never be allowed to happen, it would be disaster to European nations. UK already decided to left the sinking ship named EU and I hope other EU countries will follow suit and take their independence back.

The UK did us all a great service. Brexit is going to be an unmitigated disaster that's going to make their country a poorer, motre isolated and altogether nastier place to live in. And that's going to serve as a warning for the rest of countries, and hopefully as a wake-up call for the British youth (they can recover from this, by embracing their European indentity) and to everybody else, who will see what they stand to lose by leaving the most fascinating political entity created in the past several centuries. One that has secured the largest period of peace, cooperation and prosperity in our blood-stained, divided continent.
 
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Arsenic

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It's not really a good idea, I mean look at America.. what's next, a one world government? It's what they're pushing for anyways.

I know right? That place most western countries shaped their government to resemble. So terrible.

While it's far from perfect, it's much better than being Communist/dictatorship.

And I've still yet to figure out the benefits for us normal folk of having more than one government on this planet. (And before it is insinuated that I think the US should be the ruler of the world, I don't. )
 

ShinyUmbreon189

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I know right? That place most western countries shaped their government to resemble. So terrible.

Yeah it's the same government that throws more people in prison than any other country, created the war on drugs, funds big pharma, and funds more than half their investments into military and war, fund terrorist groups and enemies, uses media as manipulation and tools to to divide and conquer, as well as bailing out corporations because its more money for the government and corporations and not the people. America. I love our government too, they care oh so much about the population and don't want the richest to control the world. Sarcasm btw, they're all scums. The governments just an illusion, media is manipulation, and it's controlled by the wealthiest few on the planet.

And I've still yet to figure out the benefits for us normal folk of having more than one government on this planet. (And before it is insinuated that I think the US should be the ruler of the world, I don't. )

Different governments means different beliefs and policies with different cultures and ideologies and how they want to run things in this particular setting. Us normal people as a whole don't have benefits of a government period. All have to abide by rules and regulations that are against our own will, even if we're not harming anyone in the process and if the world pushed for a one world government, it would be the people with the most power and it would result in chaos between the people. Forming together as one government is a horrible idea. Government ties is why the government lies, they're all puppets. If they all formed into one government, they'd slowly take our rights away and watch the money roll in while the population destroys itself because what they already have isn't enough.
 
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I think the issue with federalisation is more how it should be done than "should it be done". Federalisation is pretty much just the next step up from the EU's current standing and federalising would certainly streamline and smooth out a lot of problems the EU has to deal with right now, but forming a single nation isn't a completely linear process and what kind of single nation they form is kind of important to figure out long before making the transition

I think it's a difficult thing to do because you'd have to work out the fairly large legal and social overhauls well ahead of time while also trying to give concessions to the member states on all those things in order to actually be able to set anything in stone
 
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It'd be great i someone reminds me to say more here later :')

My thoughts are basically that the EU are mostly on the same page and would greatly benefit from federalising. It would result in a stronger economy, a political superpower in Europe to balance out Russia and it would be a step towards a global government - less divide, more equality and a unified humanity. I long for that and while I won't live to see it, I'd love to see more steps in that direction.

It is something extremely difficult to achieve, but something that can and should happen. It's a pity the UK won't get to be a part of it but oh well.
 
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Nah

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Federalisation of the EU should never be allowed to happen, it would be disaster to European nations. UK already decided to leave the sinking ship named EU and I hope other EU countries will follow suit and take their independence back.
It's not really a good idea, I mean look at America.. what's next, a one world government? It's what they're pushing for anyways.
Why exactly wouldn't it be a good thing to do? I don't have any strong feelings about the idea either way, but it does seem like the logical next step in organization to me--a federation of nations is a bunch of countries unified together, which is a bunch of states/provinces unified together, which is a bunch of counties unified together, which is....well, you get the idea.

also, Shiny, no "America sucks" rant, I get that America sucks, I live in it too, it's just that "America sucks" doesn't tell me why a potential EU Federation is a bad idea.
 

Ice1

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I mean, economics and being a rich place are great. I just think there's still quite a big divide throughout Europe on a cultural level. That's not going to disappear. And while lots of languages are super cool, especially to someone like me studying linguistics, it does offer a ton of logistical problems concerning those cultural aspects. The idea of representation is also super worrying, and the varying ways countries hold their elections. It's not a clean solution.

The idea's fun and all, but there's just too much in the way. It's going to take centuries before we somehow manage to make both Spaniards and Swedes feel like they live in the same Europe. America struggles with a concept of cultural unification, and that country had the benefit of not carrying with them thousands of years of culture embedded in their lands. And I see that that is not being far to the native tribes that lived there, but neither were the settlers.

At the core, fusing countries is a nightmare. More than two, especially. Just watch as that federation struggles to create a government, once it has even figured out what system of representation to use. And then there's the issue of education. Certain countries have better-educated people, on a per-field basis, and certain ex-countries will therefore run amock in those sectors. You have to straighten all that out. And good luck doing so, because the German school system is as alien to the French as the Dutch one is to the Germans. And the Spanish one is as different yet again. A problem in Europe already is converting those degrees and treating them as equal. It's going to be extremely frustrating.

And that's shit you get over after a while. Sure, it's not fun, it's going to piss people off, but in the end, you have one country, under one flag, with one reluctant culture that'll never really feel unified. But does it need to? No, not perse. So what are other issues?

Personally, I dislike big countries. I'm a small government kinda fellow. In inches, not in dollars. Ideally, Portugal's the world's biggest country and we kinda just left it at that size. Because a multitude of governments creates more opportunity. At least, that's what it currently seems like to me. I'm still reading up on the workings of international economics, so come back to me when that's at a braggable level in like fifty years. Military tensions also get bigger, and therefore scarier. The smaller a country, the less military it can sustain. And that's great, you know, as long as we're argueing from my previously proposed idealic world where no country is bigger than Portugal.

But I think we all know that international tension isn't the only tension. Political tension works great in just one country, and makes every person sick to their stomach just thinking about it. The bigger a government, the less room there is for variety of opinion, on a world scale. Countries have their own Overton window (communities smaller than countries, as well, but globalization is shifting that a step up). Thoughts extreme in America incite a whole 'nother feeling somewhere else. And yeah, it's great to think that a supercountry will be progressive and rule in the way that you hope it'll do, but most likely, that power is watered down by a variety of sides, as they try to appease enough voters to get them into office. It happens in two/three-party systems, it happens in systems with coalitions and tons of parties. The opinions are just going to be more extreme, or watered down, depending on the place. The bigger a governmental system, or rather, the amount of people in the constituency, the harder it is to be in tune with them. It's why the lower you go on the governmental ladder, the easier it is to find someone that does really represent you. And it's why most governments function like a pendulum. Blue, Red, Blue, Red. Or your local variety. Imagine that on a European scale. What is needed to make that function is an entirely new political systems. The American one will be rejected over here, the Dutch/German one will remain in a coalition limbo, and others will have watered down policy.

Although I do have to confess I see one big upside to giant countries. Making sure there are no tax loopholes. Because fuck unilever, and Nestle, and U2.
 

Gigadweeb

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a giant capitalist power with the ability to bully people into joining their shitshow of a unified continent? ugh, no thanks. imperialism can kiss my arse, and I guarantee even if I'm not European, they'll try to get me to kiss theirs. Just like the US bullies everyone, despite the fact that's a single country.
 
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Definitely not. From what I've heard, Sweden pays its way too heavy toll to EU already. There are way to big divides socially and culturally throughout the EU for it to be able to function as something more coherent than a group of friendly states with economic collaboration. Maybe in some hundreds of years.
 

Ice1

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That almost sounds like... you know... a country.

Almost being a key word there. The EU mimics the United States in a couple of ways, but at the core of a country is more than just economic collaboration. It's very difficult to centralize, and without centralization, there is always the concept of coalition taking precedence over that of country. There are too many institutions that work extremely different for the EU to now just say, "yeah, we're a country." Because just calling it that is failing to recognize that the citizens of a country need to feel as if they're part of that country. And that's not going to happen, for a lot of reasons I laid out in my previous post.

Economic collaboration is no way to signify a country. Because that way, we could just draw Switzerland in as well, and they're not even part of the EU. Or even the U.S. And yeah, those have very different levels of collaboration with Europe than the member states, but even member states differ in economic benefits and regulations they accept.
 
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Almost being a key word there. The EU mimics the United States in a couple of ways, but at the core of a country is more than just economic collaboration. It's very difficult to centralize, and without centralization, there is always the concept of coalition taking precedence over that of country. There are too many institutions that work extremely different for the EU to now just say, "yeah, we're a country." Because just calling it that is failing to recognize that the citizens of a country need to feel as if they're part of that country. And that's not going to happen, for a lot of reasons I laid out in my previous post.

Economic collaboration is no way to signify a country. Because that way, we could just draw Switzerland in as well, and they're not even part of the EU. Or even the U.S. And yeah, those have very different levels of collaboration with Europe than the member states, but even member states differ in economic benefits and regulations they accept.

I'm not saying it can be done overnight, I just don't think that a federated EU is quite as unrealistic or impossible as some people do. I don't think anyone intends for it to be an instant change, it'd probably take a decade at least to make the transition.
 
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Federalisation of the EU should never be allowed to happen, it would be disaster to European nations. UK already decided to leave the sinking ship named EU and I hope other EU countries will follow suit and take their independence back.
Please no. I mean, even the UK didn't want to leave, at least not the young ones. It was mostly voted in by the old lads who won't suffer much from it. We have some guys here in our company working who are from the UK and they feel rather embarrassed.
 

Ice1

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I'm not saying it can be done overnight, I just don't think that a federated EU is quite as unrealistic or impossible as some people do. I don't think anyone intends for it to be an instant change, it'd probably take a decade at least to make the transition.

Agreed on that, as for my longer post on March 8th. I was disagreeing with the fact that "collaborating economically" sounds a lot like a country.
 
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Agreed on that, as for my longer post on March 8th. I was disagreeing with the fact that "collaborating economically" sounds a lot like a country.

Fair point. It's obviously a lot more nuanced than just "states that share the money things".
I feel like the beginnings of the groundwork are there to be built upon though and the economic unity is a big part of that.
 
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