If you voted for Clinton, you have no right to complain about Trump.

By participating in the delusional ritual referred to as "democracy" and the "political process", you are legitimizing Trump's and the Republicans' authority to implement all the crappy and immoral policies they want to implement. I call these rituals delusional because they pretend to give human beings with "authority" the right to carry out immoral actions as long as it's "the law".

Here's a reminder: everything Hitler and the Nazis did was "lawful" in Germany. It didn't turn those evil acts into good acts, and they had no right to murder all the people they did or start WW2.

You voted knowing full well the results of the election could go either way, even if you believed that Clinton had a much better chance at winning the presidency than Trump. You voted knowing full well that whoever won would have the "authority" that comes with being "president", which was the most idiotic and unnecessary gamble I can think of.

You played the game of "democracy" and lost. Take responsibility instead of acting as if you have nothing to do with all the nonsense Trump is doing right now.

I also have a suggestion for the coming elections: Don't vote and force your ideals and opinions on others. Let people live life the way they want as long as they don't interfere with yours. It's called Voluntaryism, learn it.

All comments, rebuttals, questions etc. are welcomed!

Johnny said:

This is a rather odd thread, you're not asking anything or proposing anything. You simply made a statement (with an unexplained premise if I may add).

Your premise is simply wrong, because democracy is about free speech, and this makes your whole argument, irrelevant.

You always have the right to complain. This a simple fact; there's no way you can distort reality for your argument to be valid.

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I dont think he intends this to be a freedom of speech issue. I think its more of a "you shouldn't complain" sort of deal. Sort of like "you shouldn't complain about your bad test grade if you didn't study."

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Anyways, here is my reply:

I think Hitler is a poor example to use as an argument against the social contract because, while he did take power legally, he maintained it illegally through manipulation. And he burned down the Reichstag building too, so there was no voting him out after that.

By voting you legitimize the political process and consent to whomever wins the election, but this does not revoke your right to complain if your candidate loses.

I believe that Clinton supporters have a right to complain about Trump's presidency because they actually went out to vote as opposed to not participating in the election process. If one instead donated money to her campaign or volunteered, then he or she can complain (although if you are putting all that work in i would hope you voted lol).

"Don't vote and force your ideals and opinions on others."

I would disagree as a former Voluntaryist. I can explain why if you would like.

I don't get this, what exactly are you arguing for? All you did was compare a genocide approving dictator to Trump. Your title doesn't even make sense. (You didn't even fit Clinton into this...)

Johnny said:

It would still be wrong and that is a pretty bad analogy. You voted for someone, because you wanted something and if the other candidate got elected and you obviously didn't get what you wanted, you should complain.

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Well, I'm just trying to make sense of something i dont think makes sense lol. I know its a bad analogy. I disagree with the OP entirely.

Johnny said:

This is a rather odd thread, you're not asking anything or proposing anything. You simply made a statement (with an unexplained premise if I may add).

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I proposed for people not to vote.

Your premise is simply wrong, because democracy is about free speech, and this makes your whole argument, irrelevant.

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Democracy is about trying to be on the winning side so that you get to be the oppressors instead of the oppressed.

You always have the right to complain. This a simple fact; there's no way you can distort reality for your argument to be valid.

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Sure, but you'd still be a hypocrite if you voted for Clinton. The election wasn't about choosing a "president" as long as it's Clinton, the election was about choosing any of the candidates as "president". Everyone who voted knew that, participated in and legitimized the process by voting, and are now upset that they didn't get their way.

BadSheep said:

I dont think he intends this to be a freedom of speech issue. I think its more of a "you shouldn't complain" sort of deal. Sort of like "you shouldn't complain about your bad test grade if you didn't study."

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Anyways, here is my reply:

I think Hitler is a poor example to use as an argument against the social contract because, while he did take power legally, he maintained it illegally through manipulation.

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Show me a law in Nazi Germany that said duping your subjects is illegal.

And he burned down the Reichstag building too, so there was no voting him out after that.

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Hitler legally became Fuhrer after the burning of the Reichstag, which was most likely perpetrated by the Nazis to gain more support.

By voting you legitimize the political process and consent to whomever wins the election, but this does not revoke your right to complain if your candidate loses.

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True, but like I said before, you'd still be a hypocrite.

I believe that Clinton supporters have a right to complain about Trump's presidency because they actually went out to vote as opposed to not participating in the election process. If one instead donated money to her campaign or volunteered, then he or she can complain (although if you are putting all that work in i would hope you voted lol).

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They legitimized the process, thereby legitimizing Trump's "authority" to sign whatever bills he wants into law. That was the deal. To now act as if what he's doing is unfair is, as I've said, extremely hypocritical, since they would most likely be telling those who supported Trump to accept the results of the election if he lost. They are right: a lot of what Trump is proposing would be unjust, but they allowed him to be in power by legitimizing the process, which is why they are hypocrites.

"Don't vote and force your ideals and opinions on others."

I would disagree as a former Voluntaryist. I can explain why if you would like.

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You were never a Voluntaryist to begin with if you still view the political process as legitimate. Once you understand why it's not legitimate, it's like understanding why Santa Claus doesn't exist. There is no going back and believing in Santa Claus again.

Either way, I am interested as to why you still believe in the political process, so I would like it if you elaborate.

The idea that losing invalidates Clinton-voters right to complain, just because they participated in the vote to begin with, is just downright wrong. Like, I fully get why you might feel that way since you're an anarchist, but since when does losing mean you can't continue to point out the victor's flaws? If you win the election but precede to be a terrible president, people still have every right to call you out on it. It's the same way that if your football team wins, your coach can still give you hell for a bad play you made.

Also, as a pro-democracy point, Trump only won because of the extremely undemocratic electoral college system. That's digressing a bit though.

Philosophizer said:

You were never a Voluntaryist to begin with if you still view the political process as legitimate. Once you understand why it's not legitimate, it's like understanding why Santa Claus doesn't exist. There is no going back and believing in Santa Claus again.

Either way, I am interested as to why you still believe in the political process, so I would like it if you elaborate.

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I was a Voluntaryist and I discovered reasoning that changed my mind. I realized that Voluntaryism is too black and white and it blinds you from pragmatism and reality, sucking you into useless ideology. Please dont misconstrue my opposition to ideology- I still believe first principles and consistency is incredibly important.

I believe in the political process because government and private property both spawn for similar reasons. Government provides a need (at least when it began). Private property fulfills needs. Both entities are intersubjectively verifiable and rely on force to defend regardless if one consents or not. I understand that private property and government are antithetical (to an extent- government can defend property rights by taking small freedoms away for larger freedoms); however, they are undeniably similar.

Let me give you an example: If I was born in my parent's apartment, do I not consent to the landlord's rules as I grow up in said apartment? According to you, yes. Same with government. By being born within government's territory you consent to its laws. If you disagree, you move, like an apartment. And before you say "but it costs a lot to move to a different country." Well, it costs a lot to move as well. Time off work must be taken, you have to actually move your stuff, etc. To argue the "cost" point would also be self-contradictory because as a Voluntaryist, you believe in negative liberty over positive liberty. By arguing the "cost" point you are clearly in the territory of positive liberty.

In short, by being born in a democratic country, you consent to the political process and election results. In general of course- we could work out details with dictators and such (I think we would both agree that dictators are non-consensual).

I will ignore the rest because it seems like Gimmepie and others are already debating the other points.

So you think Democracy is not real or?
It seems like you're an anarchist?

Arm chair anarchists are the worst. "Dont vote!!!" yeah, that'll stop the system! Let's all us on the multiple levels of the Left not vote, I'm sure that'll stop Fascists and Oligarchs dead in the tracks! If we all don't vote then that means that the right wing wont vote either!!! Oh, they will? And there'll be no pressure to limit their reach? Oh no

But hey, at least in your eyes we'd be allowed to complain on a Pokemon forum then won't we? That'll show 'em!!


Disclaimer: Couldn't vote (not US citizen) and even if I could I'd of never voted Clinton, but what you're saying is asinine.

What would not voting accomplish except to give the people who do vote more say in who is elected?

Like, I get that (especially in America) the voting system has inherent flaws, and the democracies in general are not 100% perfect, but that doesn't mean that it's better to abstain altogether.

I mean, if I were a candidate myself and had the kind of influence and reach that a major candidate has then my refusal to participate might have a lot more meaning, might instigate something to change the system, but when half or more of eligible people don't bother to vote in the first place my single drop in the bucket isn't going to be noticed. It'll only give people who do vote more influence.

If you don't vote, some think you have no right to complain. The truth is everyone has a right to complain no matter who you voted for. So people who voted for Hillary can complain about Trump.

Insane Troll Logic at its finest.

Keep in mind that people who voted for Clinton wanted to prevent exactly what's listed. We can complain all we want. Not because of who we voted for, but because it's granted in the Constitution. therefore, as someone who couldn't make it to the polls by any means, I can talk sh*t over the results any way I want. And I'll do that in a way that makes sense, thank you very much.

Taro, out.

BadSheep said:

In short, by being born in a democratic country, you consent to the political process and election results.

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Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. When you're born, you don't even understand the concept of consent, much less the ideas behind politics. It's sort of hard to consent when you don't even know what the hell you're consenting to.

Hanzo said:

So you think Democracy is not real or?
It seems like you're an anarchist?

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Yes to both.

Esper said:

What would not voting accomplish except to give the people who do vote more say in who is elected?

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Not voting won't accomplish much by itself, but once people give up the superstition of "authority" and "government", they won't believe evil has to be enforced just because it's called "law". Not voting is a step towards abandoning the absurd political process. That sounds like a pretty good outcome to me.

Hands said:

Arm chair anarchists are the worst. "Dont vote!!!" yeah, that'll stop the system! Let's all us on the multiple levels of the Left not vote, I'm sure that'll stop Fascists and Oligarchs dead in the tracks! If we all don't vote then that means that the right wing wont vote either!!! Oh, they will? And there'll be no pressure to limit their reach? Oh no

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You still don't understand my argument. I'm not proposing to just stop voting, I'm also arguing that people need to stop imagining those in power and "authority" are legitimate.

But hey, at least in your eyes we'd be allowed to complain on a Pokemon forum then won't we? That'll show 'em!!

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No, in my eyes, innocent people have the right to forcefully defend themselves against any violence that the agents of "authority" will inflict upon them. You, on the other hand, are probably just going to be satisfied with being able to chant pointless slogans and hold up useless signs that tyrants and other oppressors in "authority" will never be scared of.

Disclaimer: Couldn't vote (not US citizen) and even if I could I'd of never voted Clinton, but what you're saying is asinine.

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Think harder about what I'm arguing then.

Taro Tanaka said:

Insane Troll Logic at its finest.

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I'm not trying to troll.

Keep in mind that people who voted for Clinton wanted to prevent exactly what's listed.

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That's funny, considering that the people who voted for Trump mostly voted to keep her out. If both sides stopped believing that the winner will or should be in power, this problem could be resolved though.

We can complain all we want. Not because of who we voted for, but because it's granted in the Constitution.

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I agree. I'll keep pointing out the fact that it's still hypocritical though.

Therefore, as someone who couldn't make it to the polls by any means, I can talk sh*t over the results any way I want. And I'll do that in a way that makes sense, thank you very much.

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And you would be wasting your time, because the problem isn't those in power, it's the belief that they should have power in the first place.

Taro, out.

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Wow, so cool and edgy.

I'm not gonna get into the content of this thread, cause I see red flags all over that just make me shake my head.

Only going to post to remind everyone to be civil! No calling anyone names, accusing anyone of anything, etc. Be mature. Thanks!

Do people who didn't vote for Clinton have the right to complain about Trump? If they don't, then nobody has the right to complain about Trump, which is absurd. If they do, then people who did nothing would have the right to complain while the people who did something wouldn't, which is also absurd. Usually, the right to complain about something is earned with a degree of investment in that something.

Kanzler said:

Do people who didn't vote for Clinton have the right to complain about Trump?

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Yes, because they didn't help legitimize his authority by participating in the process.

If they do, then people who did nothing would have the right to complain while the people who did something wouldn't, which is also absurd.

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That "something" that the people who voted for Clinton did was to legitimize and consent to Trump's authority by participating in the process that gives him the authority, since he won in that process, legitimizing his rule. Those who didn't vote at all didn't automatically consent to whoever won in the process, which was obviously Trump in this case.

In short, if you vote, you're a hypocrite if you complain about the results because you knew that the results you don't like were a possibility when you participated in the process. If you don't like the process, the solution isn't to participate in it, the solution is to reject it.

Usually, the right to complain about something is earned with a degree of investment in that something.

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The people who didn't vote will still be subject to the laws passed by Trump's administration, and they didn't help legitimize the power that administration has, so they wouldn't be hypocrites if they complained.

Philosophizer said:

You still don't understand my argument. I'm not proposing to just stop voting, I'm also arguing that people need to stop imagining those in power and "authority" are legitimate.

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I understand plenty, but it's a moot point. People have the right to complain. If everyone who voted Clinton did not vote at all then Trump would still be president. By refusing to try to challenge him within the system that is in place you are also complacent in his authority. Sitting back in your chair chastising everyone else is asinine. If you are going to revolt properly then that's different, but using a Pokemon forum as a platform to boost your ego by deriding people for doing what they thought would stop a man a lot of them are deeply afraid of is bad praxis to say the least.

I see, but what you are saying makes no sense to me. I think that you voted does give you the right to complain, because you tried to not make Trump the president.
I'm Canadian, so what I know about American politics is not much xD But that's just my view, I voted for Trudeau in my election and he won so...

Ah yes, Voluntaryism. A charming and ineffective philosophy that gives people an excuse to be needlessly selfish, apathetic, and do nothing while claiming moral superiority. The main problem I have with voluntaryism is that it doesn't encourage people to get together to solve problems; instead it encourages nothing more than a culture of "not my problem" and "why should I?"

I think anyone has a right to complain about anyone, regardless of who they voted for. If they voted for Clinton, they should still have a right to complain about Trump. Even if they did vote for Trump, they should still have a right to complain about him as well.

We have freedom of speech. It's a basic right and an amendment. You can't stop people from complaining, no matter how much you want to. People have the right to complain about whoever they want to.