Dealing with trolls

[Dragon]

You know what, thinking more about this, I see what the other people mean here. People, ranging from members to staff aren't robots, and so, while it is true that staying calm is the way to go, sometimes we don't think clearly, and that's when things get hazy. While it is true that we staff members will try their best to remove trolls as quickly as possible, there are certain instances on where people can just be irrational, and.. that can be unavoidable.

We didn't even talk about this a lot, but, it's not just the regular members that are prone to this. I can recall many instances where even staff members like to 'egg trolls on' just for the kicks of it, and also, truth be told, while we mean well, sometimes we're not exactly the best at handling certain situations with trolls too. We're also human, and so, we can be.. too angry on dealing with situations that could of been solved better. So, staff members too should develop a system on how us, moderators, and even higher ups should properly act in each situation because, this is ultimately for the community's safety and comfort!

Point is, we're not all infallible. Each one of us all have our way to do things, and even 'disrespect' between member & staff is a definition that differentiates between each of us. That's why while we do ask to try to avoid interacting with trolls (or heck, maybe they're not 'trolls' but rather people that just has an odd habit to start things up), we should definitely make more efforts to interact with involving parties to reach a sensible conclusion; a little something that could also make things more transparent with all of us.. if that makes sense?

 

[Nah]

I will also add 6) for Zekrom: I assure you, we realize what is being asked at this point. It has been repeated many times by staff members. But as I said, some people don't realize they are feeding trolls. Some can't get themselves out of the situation. Sometimes it takes a little bit of work on the part of staff to help those caught in the moment.

That's the thing though, I'm not sure if you all really get it now or not. Not when you say things like:

The reason I continue to request that staff work with rather than punish the troll victims

Despite us telling y'all several times that:

The point is that this rule re-write is NOT targeted at members who become victims of trolls

I would like to add in reference to Matt 5) we have many young people here who are a) hormonal, b) inexperienced, and c) emotional and therefore it's really pretty difficult for them to suck it up and control their emotions. The reason I continue to request that staff work with rather than punish the troll victims is so that they may continue to have an environment where they can learn lessons like this without feeling victimized or alienated, like what Will mentioned.

Not all the people feeding the trolls have been awkward hormonally-charged 13 year olds. There's been plenty of adults (who should theoretically know better) that have been troll-feeding.

What I'm mainly getting at is this: the rule would be clearer if it had been said "those who egg on or troll the trolls qualify as trolls themselves and shall be punished as such. If anyone thinks they have a troll on their hands, please report it so that staff may deal with them quickly. If anyone is being trolled and is getting upset, please contact staff so they may work with you on this issue."

We've already admitted that the rule was unclear and poorly written. I believe that Hiroshi changed the wording of the rule, right?

All I want is the valued members of the community to be helped. That is what staff are here for, are they not? To resolve problems by working with people? Not everything can be resolved with an infraction or ban.

We are trying to help the community. Telling you guys to stop feeding trolls will help the community. The only reason we had to include infractions as part of this is because if we didn't, then none of you would give a shit and just continue to feed future trolls.




....But since nobody seems to give two shits about any of that, let's just move on to this part:

And honestly, in regards to Zekrom's last point, I think I would have liked to see work on troll identification and dealing with the trolls first. Address the cause, not the symptoms, right?

So a couple of thoughts atm on this:
1) Do we need to establish criteria on what exactly a troll is?
2) iirc the majority of trolls are perma-banned, but sometimes they aren't. All bans for trolling should be perma-bans.
3) I think I remember someone saying that moderators can't issue permanent bans and only hstaff can. If that is the case, then perhaps we should be given the power to perma-ban trolls instead of waiting for hstaff to do it?

 

[Captain Fabio]

3) I think I remember someone saying that moderators can't issue permanent bans and only hstaff can. If that is the case, then perhaps we should be given the power to perma-ban trolls instead of waiting for hstaff to do it?

No offence to the Moderators of today, but that is a bad, bad idea just waiting to go horribly wrong.
Then it is down to a person's judgement on if they are a troll or not and, this thread even shows, the differing opinion on what a troll is, is as wide as the Grand Canyon.

Leave it as it is, imo. It is the job of the H-Staff to do that stuff, that's why they are there.​

​

 

[Aquacorde]

All I have been asking for is absolute assurance that staff will attempt to work with victims of trolling rather than punish them, as well as a more clearly worded ruling. What I am also asking is that you recognize that this is a valid thing to request ressurance of, rather than continuing to tell me the same thing over and over. I recognize the intent of the rule, but I also want to be sure that staff will do everything in their power to help those people prone to being trolled. It is not nice to be trolled and not nice to be punished when you attempt to defend yourself. I want people to learn from these incidents rather than shut down because they feel they were treated with little respect for their valid emotions.

So I'd appreciate you considering what I am saying here rather than repeating what everyone else is saying but louder.

Since the initial troll is clearly the primary problem, it should be staff's priority to handle them quickly. That is what I think y'all should be telling the community- instead of threatening them for retaliation (which is what this seemed to be), remind them that reporting trolls is important. Remind them that taking issues to staff members is important. Assure them that y'all are doing all you can to nip trolls in the bud instead of dither about them long enough for them to rile up a bunch of people.

It would be good to see some way mods can shut down trolls in their sections; as previously mentioned some sort of temp posting lock or something. Just a way to get them out of the place while hstaff inevitably has a big discussion about a permaban.

 

[£]

Butterfly effect much?

>I stand up to a troll
>troll gets upset
>universe erupts
>crackdown begins on turning the table on trolls
>great battle between Zekrom and Reshiram Anna commences
>???

https://www.pokecommunity.com/showpost.php?p=8546845&postcount=28

still championing that idea if we're still in a state of debate and such with regards to actions if these are necessary tho there haven't been any trolls since the last one.

tho really I'm not even sure what's going on here any more

tl;dr: Pokémon Black and White: Pokécommunity Version? I think that's where we're at.

 

[Nah]

No offence to the Moderators of today, but that is a bad, bad idea just waiting to go horribly wrong.
Then it is down to a person's judgement on if they are a troll or not and, this thread even shows, the differing opinion on what a troll is, is as wide as the Grand Canyon.

Leave it as it is, imo. It is the job of the H-Staff to do that stuff, that's why they are there.​

​

I see what you mean, and you're right, that probably is not the best idea. But I also think that we just can't leave it as is either. Some sort of temporary lock thing like some of the other people in here have suggested might be a better way to go. Maybe?

All I have been asking for is absolute assurance that staff will attempt to work with victims of trolling rather than punish them, as well as a more clearly worded ruling. What I am also asking is that you recognize that this is a valid thing to request ressurance of, rather than continuing to tell me the same thing over and over. I recognize the intent of the rule, but I also want to be sure that staff will do everything in their power to help those people prone to being trolled. It is not nice to be trolled and not nice to be punished when you attempt to defend yourself. I want people to learn from these incidents rather than shut down because they feel they were treated with little respect for their valid emotions.

So I'd appreciate you considering what I am saying here rather than repeating what everyone else is saying but louder.

I....thought that it was made clear by now that punishment of victims of trolling was never our intent. If it wasn't clear, I'm sorry.


@Luck Hax: if Anna's username was Reshiram I'd be laughing so hard right now.

 

[Oryx]

There is such a thing as turning the other cheek though. That's what I feel is what we should be trying to aim for here as part of this new amendment. Sure, some people might not like that, but personally that's a good life lesson to try to have when it comes to interactions. Ill just say it: people sometimes need to learn to control their emotions at times, and I don't think saying "I got caught in the moment" is a good excuse.

That's just my personal view of the situation and how as people we should try to act.

I'm not sure the staff of a Pokemon forum are really the appropriate people to put rules in place to teach people life lessons. I think the question here is - what problem are you guys solving here? The point, the spirit, of the rule of "don't disrespect members" is because that is harmful to other members and we want those members to feel safe on the forums. When it comes to people that are known trolls to the point of being banned, they're not welcome on the forums and presumably their feelings about how they're treated after they break the rules aren't really relevant. While it might be argued that they still have the right not to be disrespected even though they broke the rules, I believe that it's far more important to give members in good standing the benefit of the doubt and room to be angry, even if you want to "teach them a life lesson" about how you think they should act, than it is to give trolls that are regularly infracted or banned the right to enjoy tormenting people with no pushback.

I also think that the reaction to this should signal to the higher staff that the troll detection rules they have in place right now are not sufficient. Whether or not they think they are, clearly many members disagree and feel like they've been trolled by people that have not been punished.

 

[Aquacorde]

The only reason I came back after being assured by a few staff members that they would work with victims was that I saw someone calling out the few dissenters on being over-the-top. And then I was accused of using this as an anti-staff platform. And then a few more of y'all came in and said people would be punished if they fed the trolls in any way, even when they were the victims? So like, I had my answer and was cool with that. And then more voices came in trying to help staffside and it got muddled again. mb how staff addresses these sort of questions could be discussed in hq and limited to a select few staff members per issue so this sort of thing... doesn't happen as much lol idk man I really didn't give a fuck until I started getting repeatedly yelled at for valid points so...

So if everyone's clear on the fact that it's people who are purposefully antagonizing the trolls who are being punished and not people who are rightfully upset at people attacking them, we could probs move on to the issue of mods not actually being able to do much about trolls. vOv

 

[Nick]

This is getting extremely frustrating to discuss.

You have here, a collection of rather well respected and pronounced members (four of which were on staff ourselves; two of which were higher staff and have an idea how the innermost workings of the forum work) expressing some sort of disapproval that are obviously concerned about the forum first and foremost, or they wouldn't be replying to this thread in the first place. Many likes involved in our posts from other people who agree with us, and plenty of valid points in favor of something else being done. And here we are being responded to "It is what it is." type of responses, and defensive posts that explain why this is a great change.

PokéCommunity isn't a democracy, no, but when you have this much visible pleas for some sort of change in how you deal with the most obvious troublemakers on the interwebs, then I think it's time to consider seriously discussing a way to properly deal with trolls, rather than dealing with how trolls are responded to. I mean, for Christ sake, we changed the default style because four people replied saying they didn't like it and found it confusing to navigate opposed to a structure that we've literally had on this forum for ten over fucking years and that was changed entirely back to a style that's been the default style since it's been released.

Absolutely nobody against this is against this because we believe that trolls should be responded to. Our points are that people have emotions, and sometimes emotions get the better of us. You guys announced saying that you weren't tolerating people who disrespected anybody. Ideally, that's a great position to take. But now you're saying that people who respond to trolls will get a verbal warning first, then a yellow card, and then infracted. Then changing your opinions and saying that it's important to respect people because that's what being a decent human being is for, wehther they're trolls or otherwise. So what is it? Is it important to respect everybody because that's how it should be, or is it okay to be disrespectful to trolls?

You're arguing. You're not discussing. You're not considering. You've already had your position on the matter and aren't interested in looking at other options.

The title of this thread is "dealing with trolls." But it's about how the members deal with them. Not the staff. The staff need a more effective way of dealing with trolls. That is what literally everyone who has something negative to say about this is saying. That is what some of the staff are admitting that is necessary. That is why there is fuss.

 

[El Héroe Oscuro]

The only reason I came back after being assured by a few staff members that they would work with victims was that I saw someone calling out the few dissenters on being over-the-top. And then I was accused of using this as an anti-staff platform. And then a few more of y'all came in and said people would be punished if they fed the trolls in any way, even when they were the victims? So like, I had my answer and was cool with that. And then more voices came in trying to help staffside and it got muddled again. mb how staff addresses these sort of questions could be discussed in hq and limited to a select few staff members per issue so this sort of thing... doesn't happen as much lol idk man I really didn't give a fuck until I started getting repeatedly yelled at for valid points so...

So if everyone's clear on the fact that it's people who are purposefully antagonizing the trolls who are being punished and not people who are rightfully upset at people attacking them, we could probs move on to the issue of mods not actually being able to do much about trolls. vOv

Even though we have differing opinions on the matter, I personally never thought you had an anti-staff position. It's a shame that some people think that.

 

[Her]

i think only so much can be said until the next incident happens and you can field test all this
deal with that situation in the way you have proposed you're going to deal with it and then evaluate it and get back to concerned people with the findings

i suppose there's an issue of leaking and whatever but surely you guys would be able to present it in a way that doesn't compromise forum integrity while showing that the proposed method is successful in your eyes

 

[Cherrim]

Staff can say "it's not like we're ever really gonna infract people for this" but the fact is, this rule is now as much about getting in trouble for falling for trolling as it is about trolling. Apparently the rule has already been rewritten to be less confusing but I still have no idea why it needs to be there. Literally half of the rule is now dedicated to the consequences of retaliating to trolls rather than the act of trolling itself, which is ridiculous.

I'm fairly certain no one on staff actually intends for this to sound so victim blame-y. I actually think it's a good idea to have a note in the rules to remind people not to take the bait when trolls are involved. But the emphasis should always be on not trolling in the first place and that emphasis is lost in this new wording of the rule, imo. Am I correct to assume this rule is supposed to be more about people who have fun trolling trolls than the inexperienced members who fall for trolling? If so, the rule still isn't clear enough.

Again, I have no idea if anything led up to this but I assume something must have and this rule just seems really... haphazardly put in place as a result. Is this really such a longstanding problem that people need the threat of warnings or infractions hovering over them just to not respond to trolls? If yes, then the problem is with the trolls and the staff really needs to crack down on trolling itself and figure out how best to get rid of it before big retaliations happen. If it's not something that comes up often... then is this really important enough to take up half the trolling rule?

Seriously, if there IS anyone out there who's constantly egging on trolls, just tell them to cut it out. Anyone who goes "YEAH BUT IT'S NOT IN THE RULES NOT TO TALK TO TROLLS" is a troll themselves... :\

 

[Livewire]

So if everyone's clear on the fact that it's people who are purposefully antagonizing the trolls who are being punished and not people who are rightfully upset at people attacking them, we could probs move on to the issue of mods not actually being able to do much about trolls. vOv

That's literally the only point this thread is trying to make here. Nobody is saying that members are just supposed to sit there and be harassed by a troll. All this thread is for, is to say that purposefully antagonizing or outright "trolling the troll" back is not ok - from there, you need to drop it and report it, and an H-Staff or a moderator will take care of it.

And yes, the trolls themselves need to be dealt with quicker and before it gets really bad. The infraction for Trolling also includes "borderline" trolling as well, and staff needs to be ok with, and more proactive with handing out disipline if the situation calls for it. Don't be afraid of getting an earful back from the offender.

EDIT: Also, this thread has really gotten off-topic from what we intended it for, and we're not really getting any where with discussing the rule here, so I'm going to lock this thread after some staff discussion. You're more than welcome to bring your thoughts to the Staff Feedback Thread instead.

Closed