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Greninja is being suspect tested

KorpiklaaniVodka

KorpiklaaniVodka

KID BUU PAWAA
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    They want to put Greninja up to Ubers? Wow, I never thought about it before, but now that I think about it Greninja seems like it might deserve it.

    Also, if they ban Greninja in Pokémon, it should be banned in Smash 4 as well. LOGIC
     
    I just want throw my 2 cents out there. Feel free to disagree

    Greninja wrecks offense and balance with it's speed and Protean plus it hits suprisingly hard with LO not to mention it is verstaile but Stall usually has usualy atleast 2 Couners to it (Porygon, Chansey, SpDef Rotom, Ferrothorn, MVenusaur, generally bulky waters are all viable in Stall) and even if they are too passive like everyone says, they can wear him down with LO recoil and Hazard or Status since Stall is all about passive damage.

    Yes, he has coverage for all of them but not at the same time so something is always going to wall him.(And I have rarely seen a Greninja with Grass Knot)

    There is another issue with Gren, and that is, he is frail. Since he is usually used in offensive teams you have to sack something to bring him in safely, so they can play the Greninja game just as well against you.

    Not to mention there are a lot of Checks against Gren which are very viable in OU(MSceptile, MLopunny, Weavile, Scarfers like Landorus-T, Klefki ect..). Yes, Gren can switch out but that means you retained momentum and can do anything you want, like destroy something else or set up something like a substitute...and you know how dangerous the likes of MSceptile is behind a sub against offense.

    All in all, while Gren is an incredible force in OU, he is, in my opinion, managable.
     
    LightBlast said:
    Greninja wrecks offense and balance with it's speed and Protean plus it hits suprisingly hard with LO not to mention it is verstaile but Stall usually has usualy atleast 2 Couners to it (Porygon, Chansey, SpDef Rotom, Ferrothorn, MVenusaur, generally bulky waters are all viable in Stall)
    and even if they are too passive like everyone says, they can wear him down with LO recoil and Hazard or Status since Stall is all about passive damage.

    Chansey is 2hko'd with Low Kick with Rocks up as is Ferrothorn. Gunk Shot 2hko's Rotom and if if it uses Def evs>sp.def evs it gets 2hko's by Dark Pulse.

    Yes, he has coverage for all of them but not at the same time so something is always going to wall him.(And I have rarely seen a Greninja with Grass Knot)

    At the same time, that is a deadly guessing game which you CANNOT afford to do with Greninja because its so versatile due to protean, often costing you a pokemon just to find out what its running.


    There is another issue with Gren, and that is, he is frail. Since he is usually used in offensive teams you have to sack something to bring him in safely, so they can play the Greninja game just as well against you.

    Not too hard, U-Turn and Volt switch support make it easy to bring in and its not as if he doesnt have a few resistances and immunities. Once its in, then offense and possibly stall is going to be the one sacking something as aforementioned.


    Not to mention there are a lot of Checks against Gren which are very viable in OU(MSceptile, MLopunny, Weavile, Scarfers like Landorus-T, Klefki ect..). Yes, Gren can switch out but that means you retained momentum and can do anything you want, like destroy something else or set up something like a substitute...and you know how dangerous the likes of MSceptile is behind a sub against offense.

    All in all, while Gren is an incredible force in OU, he is, in my opinion, managable.
    Click to expand...

    Comments in bold and none of those are good answers nor are they checks. They are revenge killers at best. If you need to revenge kill something to handle it, its broken.
     
    On the note of Chansey, someone else said in that thread that if the Attack EVs are minimal, it won't 2HKO with Low Kick if it's just Life Orb against a max Defense Chansey, but i'm sure it's different for max Attack variants (which are probably rarer). And Mega Venusaur has Thick Fat, which would aid it against the Ice Beam variants, but not the very rare Extra Sensory ones. Although I want to agree that frailness is arguably his biggest downside, it's hard for me to place an exact pegging on it.
     
    Dark Azelf said:
    40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (34.4 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    With rocks its basically a 2hko lol.
    Click to expand...

    Damage calc says it's still a 3HKO even after SR and that's without max HP, which is the more common Chansey spread.

    You are right with Ferrothorn though and you are probably right on anything else but I want to adress 1 issue

    Dark Azelf said:
    Not too hard, U-Turn and Volt switch support make it easy to bring in and its not as if he doesnt have a few resistances and immunities. Once its in, then offense and possibly stall is going to be the one sacking something as aforementioned.
    Click to expand...

    The thing is, since it is best used in offense, the U-Turners are probably the fast variant(except Scizor I guess?) which means Greninja has to take a hit regardeless. Even resisted hits can hurt Greninja because it will be easier to wear him down, I mean look at this

    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 112-132 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 80-94 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- 89% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    with LO Recoil it will be 2HKO, so yeah. Maybe not the best example since they lose against scarf Lando and Rotom-W but I just want to amplify how his frailness can hold him back sometimes.

    Edit: Ok my bad. Bulky-Offense/Balance can also run something like Magnezone, bulky Rotom or Diggersby as slow-turners.
     
    Last edited:
    The meta is so over centralized on Greninja. With the constant shifts and attempts to check it, due to the fact that it has a large movepool and protean, it can easily counter anything that begins to rise up as a "check" for the frog. Things that aren't even OU are starting to be used, and you know that's always a problem. The fact that all teams have to be built around not getting completely annihilated by this Pokemon is the reason it should be banned. Sure, it won't probably do so well in ubers, but it definitely is too overpowered in OU.

    You just really have to pay attention to what you switch into this Pokemon, and again, its moveset can be very unpredictable. If you have protect on your poke you could probably guess it's moveset, but even then, it has so much it can cover so you never truly know.
    The only downside to this poke is that it's basically a hit and run, it's just meant to take down at least 1 poke and because of its frailness doesn't last long.

    I might just start playing under VGC rules now. OU is still pretty unbalanced at the moment.
     
    I am so happy this has finally happened.
    I mean seriously u can easily slap Greninja on any team, and just start beating stuff, I run Tenta to counter it since no one uses exs, but even then it's 2-3hkod by dpulse.
    That thing has a combination of insane speed,insane ability and average offensive stats. 40 ATk ev's Is not that huge yo, and Lo protean is easy to rek.

    Also In the op they say it suffers from 4mss, but isn't that what makes it even more deadly. U always have to sack something to know what all it has.
     
    LightBlast said:
    Damage calc says it's still a 3HKO even after SR and that's without max HP, which is the more common Chansey spread.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah i calced it wrong but even so, 2 Low Kicks + SR does a possible 95% to 0 hp / 252 Def Chansey. All it needs is the tiniest bit of chip damage and its done (i.e sand), its not a very good counter for this reason imo.

    Also max hp max/def Chansey is an inefficient spread (also i thought 252 def / 252 sp.def was the most common? Its also on the smogon analysis but i digress) imo, then it kinda sucks taking special hits. This is also amplified because if it gets its Eviolite knocked off its still semi useful with max def max sp.def and can still handle things like Landorus-I etc.
     
    I don't really have time to get into all the damage calcs and whatnot right now, but if I could offer my two cents for the moment:

    Pretty much everyone I've come across runs a Greninja. Like 9/10 dentists recommend Greninja, and it seems all to familiar to the Gen 4 Garchomp fiasco - everyone and their mother used to run that guy too. I feel it's not just a problem when there aren't reliable checks/counters in OU tier - meaning you have to place something from a lower tier on your team just to combat it - but also when everyone has him and you start to feel more inclined to keep him on your own team. I do love him and he's an amazing lead, but I hate feeling almost obligated to keeping him on my team.
     
    Greninja suspect test

    So as some of you may or may not know, greninja is currently being suspect tested because of his godlike speed, his awesome ability which gives him stab on everything, and the 2 move tutor moves that he got. With gunk shot and low kick, he can now counter his previous counters. With 44 evs in attack, greninja can OHKO standard AV Azumarill (on phone so can't run calcs). With 244 evs in attack, he can 2KHO Chandra after stealth rocks with either low kick or gunk shot (or both). Now, with life orb plus stab on all his attacks, he has an effective 129 base attack and 174 base special attack, along with 122 base speed. While he might be frail and can easily be revenge killed, the opponent can simply switch out and go into something to handle the revenge killer. Then they can later switch him in after a poke has fainted and proceed to do work. With all this, what's your thoughts? Should he be banned?

    My take on this is that it's gonna be sad to see my second favorite poke go to ubers. I remember before ORAS came out, I bred myself a shiny greninja with protean and now it's basically a waste of time seeing as how I hatched over 1,000 eggs for it. And I'm not a fanboy, trust me. The second favorite poke part is from something that me and my friend did back when XY came out. And while I do know that saying a poke isn't good enough in ubers is justifiable for smogon to not ban him, I honestly think he might simply go extinct, with the exception of the rare ubers set he already has. Also I really cringe when I see the majority of qualified suspect testers saying they want greninja banned. Again, I'm not a fanboy. But yeah, let me and everyone else know what your thoughts on the matter is.

    Edit: there's obviously more I can go into, but I'm sure that most of you know that with his insane coverage, he covers just about every type if not every type. I'm almost certain he hits everything neutrally. But yeah, just the fact that he has stab and coverage on everything is scary.
     
    I thought we had a thread on this, but maybe it was deleted or something.

    Personally, it is kinda sad, because Greninja is one of my favourite's to use as well, but then when you think about it it's not too hard to see why it's probably going to Ubers. So yeah, I think Ubers is its place, and there really isn't a perspective in which that isn't true.
     
    Oh, and here I thought that we wouldn't hear about it till tomorrow. I'm not really surprised by the results of the vote; it getting banned seemed like what was gonna happen from what I read in the initial thread about it and stuff I heard on the main Showdown server.

    Now the question is, what will OU and Ubers be like after this?
     
    It got Uber'd as I expected (dang OR/AS move tutors buffed it dang good), but I do wonder what could become of the OU tier following this latest decision? What could rise to OU thanks to their main threat being gone?
     
    Archer99 said:
    Well, Starmie is one poke to look at. The speed is close to Greninja's one. Sure, They don't share too many things after that. But, Starmie hits pretty hard with a Life Orb, Even with a timid nature. So, I'm going to say, Get ready for it. It's a pretty decent poke, And it's a spinner too.
    Click to expand...

    That was exactly what I was thinking. Starmie has always been a great competitive player in the standard metagame but Greninja definitely gave it a run for its money, now with the froggy gone Starmie can shine again.
     
    Well there goes my interest in using a Greninja for the third version/sequel of XY. Might as well stick with Delphox and go with Venusaur, and have Shauna's newly hatched Chespin boxed for a while, since you can trade any Pokémon from your party and boxes for one anyway, so I won't have to worry about boxing a starter I've received in the same fashion as my Fennekin and Bulbasaur. This does, however, give me trouble on which Water type I should use on my new team. It can't be Starmie, since Delphox is a Psychic type, so I'm stuck between Azumarill or Gyarados.
     
    unlike things like aegi that forced a lot of mons like mega voir, mega hera, mega cham etc to not be used much, greninja did not really have that kind of an impact. greninja decimated almost everything, but i guess the number of azumarills i see now a days is wayy less to what i was used to. so i really haave no clue what the meta game would look like.
    starmie is cool.
     
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