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I don’t care what anyone would say…

PageEmp

No money puns. They just don’t make cents.
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  • …The removal of gyms in gen7 was a beyond excellent idea and I reccomend doing stuff like that in future generations.

    I have heard the complaint that gyms are what defined the franchise, but I do not side with that. My thought process is that as long as the people who design the games never said they must have gyms, then it's clear that it's perfectly fine to switch up the formula once in a while.

    And personally, I think every time they switched around the formula, it worked out really well, and I had fun every time. What do you guys think?
     
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    So long as there were still a similar number of boss battles, I'd be fine with that.

    That said, what is it about Gyms that you don't like, that you feel the game would be better off without? The type specialist teams? If Gym Leaders had teams based on other premises as discussed in this recent thread, would that be functionally any different from what you're asking for?

    Also, you do realize that the Gen 7 games didn't actually remove Gyms Leaders, they just reduced them from 8 down to 4, right? Kahunas and Gym Leaders are effectively the same thing.
     

    PageEmp

    No money puns. They just don’t make cents.
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  • Okay, well gyms aren't really bad. But the same stuff for 6 whole generations just felt tiresome.

    And yes, I do know about that last paragraph.

    Thing is, I think the games would be more interesting to simply try other things out and be more interesting, and since not using the usual gym formula has worked every time, I see no reason to revert back to the original tired formula.
     
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    So, it's not the Gym Leaders or the Gyms themselves that you don't like, it's the overall game structure of progression being centered around collecting 8 badges, is that it?

    I would agree, except that I assume the reason why Gen 8 went back to the traditional formula is because the majority of players said that that's what they wanted.
     
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    I thought Gen 7 was refreshing as a whole. It had prevalent flaws, but overall stepped away from the formula and attempted something different. As for the island trials, some were better than others. I remember the dragon trial being a straight walk through the cave.

    The totem pokemon were challenging and felt more reminiscent of traditional boss fights. I liked the concept of them gaining stat boosts at the start, meaning you would be fighting an uphill battle.
     
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    Pretty sure the developers are aware of the classic Gym structure staleness, but they don't want to completely remove it because it's still a popular feature. Even the Alola games still had Gyms, because the four island Kahunas (Fighting, Rock, Dark, and Ground) are actually no different from Gym leaders, and they even have the Elite Four (the only difference is that they had four 'gym leaders' instead of eight)

    Scarlet and Violet brought an extender version of that same concept: We still have the traditional eight gyms + Elite Four, but that's just one of three paths, and the other two paths involve the Titans and the Starmobile boss battles, which share some conceptual similarities with Totem Pokémon battles.

    So the next games will probably continue on that path. With official gyms being present, but with other forms of boss battles as well so that there's some more new stuff to experience.
     
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    I don't think that the question of whether a game is sticking to this so-called "stale formula" is tied to whether it has Gyms or not. I think it's a question of what else the game does. I think that it's possible to use the formula but make the formula not be stale anymore.

    Fan games like Pokemon Uranium and Pokemon Insurgence aren't popular because they deviate form the formula, they're popular because they utilize the formula well. They deviate from the formula an awful lot less than, say, Pokemon Legends Arceus does, yet they're still considered much fresher than the main series games. They do this by making the Gym Leaders themselves more interesting (most having themes other than a single type, though some do that better than others, and making them interesting characters possibly connected with the plot), and by having a good story and plot in the rest of the game.

    In Pokemon Insurgence in particular, almost every Gym Leader is also somebody who has some amount of plot relevance; the only one who I think doesn't is the 2nd, and even then I might be forgetting something. And two of them, the 3rd and 8th, are VERY important to the story, with the fight itself doubling as a major story event. If you were to remove Gyms from Pokemon Insurgence, for most of them you could just keep the character and remove their battle, but for those two, the battle would still need to occur and they just wouldn't be Gym Leaders.

    Also, as I mentioned in the other thread, Gym Leaders make for easily-constructed boss battles, since they have an excuse for having a single-type theme and for being in your way. If your game can have 10-12 boss battles before the League not counting rival battles, and have them all be interesting and justified, then great; if not, Gyms help to fill out the roster of bosses.

    In short, it's easy to say that the games should "do something else for a change," but I like my Pokemon games to have bosses in them, so if you're going to remove 8 Gym Leaders you need to replace them with something. And, it's entirely possible to write a good story for the 90% of the game that isn't spent inside a Gym without having to remove the Gyms to do it; most games just don't.
     
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  • Gyms not being apart of gen 7 is why it felt so refreshing, it was new! Just like how legends felt super refreshing after sword and shield which were pretty generic. I think its quite apparent at this point that gamefreak CAN switch up the formula in mainline games for something cool, they just dont due to tradition or a third reason
     

    Sweet Serenity

    Advocate of Truth
    3,371
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  • I agree. The lack of gyms in Alola made the game great, in my opinion. The problem with Pokémon, at least in my opinion, is that it is mostly the same game over and over. I do appreciate the different regions and Pokémon in each generation, but it wouldn't kill them to try something new. I enjoy the Island Challenge more than collecting badges at gyms. I also really enjoyed the Totem Pokémon boss battles. However, I must admit, I really love what Galar did with the Gym Challenge. They made it more like a live sporting event and made it super exciting. My thing is, while I really welcome gameplay that doesn't involve gyms, similar to the Island Challenge, if Pokémon must continue with the Gym Challenge, they need to keep making them similar to Galar's Gym Challenge. I absolutely loved that.
     
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    Gyms not being apart of gen 7 is why it felt so refreshing, it was new!
    I agree. The lack of gyms in Alola made the game great, in my opinion. The problem with Pokémon, at least in my opinion, is that it is mostly the same game over and over. [...] I enjoy the Island Challenge more than collecting badges at gyms.
    I feel as though part of your definition of "Gym Leader" is that they have to be boring.

    To me the only defining characteristic of a Gym Leader is that they're a boss who you fight for the sake of getting a Badge in order to enter the League. Their team can be whatever you want so long as they have some sort of clear theme, and their Gym challenge can be whatever you want, and it's still a Gym. By this definition, the Kahunas have a lot more in common with Gym Leaders than they do with other types of bosses in the other games. The only thing separating them from Gym Leaders is that they're not called that and they don't give you a Badge. They could have been Gym Leaders with zero change to the functional gameplay. You like the gameplay of the Trials? We could just have Gyms that are like that. Look at the Gym challenges in the Orange Islands arc of the anime, they're a lot like the Trials. What you two appear to be asking for is not at all mutually exclusive with Gyms.

    while I really welcome gameplay that doesn't involve gyms
    90% of any Pokemon game consists of gameplay that doesn't involve Gyms. Thus, as I said, I think that the presence or lack of Gyms, or what those Gyms are like, is a lot less important than what you do with the rest of the game. You could take Pokemon Legends Arceus and add Gyms to it, and still keep most of the game the same.

    If you take a Pokemon game and subtract Gym Leaders, the only thing you've automatically changed is to have there be 8 fewer boss battles. You can make the Gym Leader's team be whatever you want (again just so long as they have some sort of theme), you can make the Gym challenge be whatever you want, and you can make the parts of the game that are not Gyms be whatever you want. The rest of the game can be an epic story of whatever form you want, and you can still have a game with 8 Gyms in it. Pokemon Insurgence even manages to combine the Gyms with the epic story on a couple of occasions. The existence of Gyms isn't the problem; the problem is that the Gyms aren't interesting, and the lack of interesting things to do outside of the Gyms.

    The only asterisk I'd put on that is that if the story is interesting enough in its own right, you run the risk of the Gyms feeling like a distraction or an interruption of it. Which is where the point comes in that you can by all means remove Gyms, just so long as you still have a sufficient quantity of interesting and challenging boss battles. Gym Leaders are a crutch that allow the devs to churn out boss characters without having to think too hard; and attempting to make a Pokemon game without that crutch is absolutely possible, but IMO not something to be taken lightly.
     
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    Palamon

    Silence is Purple
    8,167
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • I agree that it was a good idea and they need a gymless region again some day, but some of the island trials themselves could have been better like... Sophacles(?) in the original games had a terrible trial. If we have another game without gyms, though, it'd have to make sense, I guess. With Alola, it was a whole culture.

    I do like what Galar tried doing with gyms: making it a sport, but, I also do like what Alola did.
     
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  • I agree that it was enjoyable and definitely liked it, despite it still feeling a bit similar to gyms. With how big the Pokeworld is I feel like it'd be realistic to expect people across different areas/countries to use Pokémon in different ways and that should extend to challenges like gyms.. so yes please give us more variety. The classic formula is familiar and safe but the main series games will continue to sell crazy numbers so I hope TPCi and Game Freak will consider doing something different again. :') I would love to see the possibilities they can come up with.
     
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