Suggestion: Incentives

[Anti]

Hey, I wanted to bring up an issue that, while coming entirely from the perspective of a regular in the battling forum (and very much aimed to improve that), it seems relevant enough to the rest of PC to bring up here: incentives.

I think the forum would be greatly improved by adding meaningful incentives (so not cheeky stuff that no one cares about like emblems) that reward contributions to PC from both staff and non-staff. "Contribution" can be defined depending on the forum, whether that means being a respectful and mature poster, a one-person quality discussion topic machine, a leader of events, or whatever else.

To be fully transparent, I am thinking of something along the lines of Smogon's badge system. This system is explained on their Badge FAQ page. Badges, placed below someone's avatar and custom usertitle (just visit the site to see), visually communicate what a user has contributed. Because badges require significant contribution to attain, being a badged user carries a certain amount of prestige. (There are also trophies, which are granted for winning big tours like the Official Ladder Tournament, Official Smogon Tournament, Smogon Premier League, World Cup of Pokemon, etc., which offer a similar incentive.) While this or a similar idea would have to be tailored to PC--PC is most definitely not Smogon--I find the general idea to be very attractive, for the following reasons.

In the battling forum, it is very useful to have an incentive for users to both create events, participate in events, rate teams, and otherwise act as a positive influence on newer players. Ideally, people would do this out of the goodness of their hearts, and a lot of people do, but it really would be nice to be able to draw people with some sort of reward. A lot of users just need an extra push, and I don't think it's morally objectionable to dangle an incentive to motivate them. Just to use the badges as an example, we could have something like a "Battling Contributor" badge for people who do the things I just mentioned (team rates, hosting tours, etc.). As rewards for event/tour participants, there could be an altered version of the trophies. The badge system is just an example though if people don't like it. The biggest thing is that, whatever it is, the reward conveys real prestige. As it stands now, we can really only offer battle points on the server (which have suffered a sort of comical inflation from their overuse as a reward) and a server rank that no one cares about. It is difficult to have a prosperous battling community when no one is working toward anything besides some nebulous ideal of self-improvement, and those who really have that ambition tend to take off to Smogon (see users Honus and Zebraiken, among others). It would be nice if we didn't lose some of our most promising users to Smogon, and I think injecting some motivation into the community as a way to liven it up would help on that front.

As for the rest of the forum, I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about the needs of the world outside of BTB. All the same, I wanted to mention a few things that strike me as relevant. I think an incentive for being a respectful/insightful poster would be nice for places like the occasionally cancerous Round Table forum. I'm sure others can weigh in on this better than I can, but I guess I see rewarding good users as being a universal objective for PC as whole? Also, if people really oppose this as an element elsewhere on PC, I think even only BTB-specific incentives would be very nice, especially for a somewhat fledgling tournaments scene. (In other words, I'd prefer for this not to get shot down if it doesn't apply to other forums. If not, I'm interested if it's possible as a BTB-exclusive feature.)

The obvious counterpoint I can see is that, much like with the woefully deficient old rep system with the little green bars, people would overemphasize the incentive or contribute "for the wrong reasons." I don't really see contribution as a bad thing though as long as it's positive. Whatever peoples' motives, if they encourage positivity in the forum, I'm all for it. While this is a somewhat superficial proposal--"let's give our users more things, as if they don't have enough" (hashtag supporter perks)--I think that it fills part of the niche that rep did try to fill, but without the enormous circlejerk element. It's not like there aren't a few people who are always really obvious about their desire to be PC staff anyway. Which actually reminds me...

Take this bit with a grain of salt as I have been disconnected with the rest of PC long enough that what I say might no longer be relevant. With that disclaimer, I have come up with a theory of sorts. I joined in 2007, and for a huge amount of my time here, PC has had a very weird relationship with its staff ranging from ravenous ambition to achieve this rank to blatant sucking up to a somewhat concerning reverence for the staff as a whole. I feel like it is at least feasible that part of the source of this culture, if it indeed still exists, is that there isn't any other obvious indicator of high-quality users or users who have done much to make PC a better place. In a sense, all of the incentives that matter/cannot be bought are in one basket (staff), so it is kind of natural that staff members would be seen as "special" users since there is no other obvious indicator of quality or contribution. Put differently, prestige has always been pretty centralized with the staff, and reversing that a bit might have a positive effect? (Improved incentives might also allow users who probably shouldn't be staff but nevertheless have a positive effect to be rewarded.)

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are.

 

[Mana1]

... Who's going to be the one to say "something is in the works", is it me? ;3

Audy has been putting something together that is a unique take on new incentives. I'm not sure he's ready for any public info yet though I'm afraid - we'll have to get him in here.

 

[Dedenne1]

Oh well thats good to hear!

But im glad it was addressed i agree 100% and this is definately something that id like to see in the future and i agree with flight emblems are (atleast in my eyes) dont mean as much as id hope for and its not really hard to get an emblem and no ones coming up to your profile saying omg u got that emblem thats so cool howd you get it? Although it may have happended in the past but incentives are definately a step up so hope to see it :)

 

[Her]

my only thought about this is 'just so long as they aren't ugly'

 

[Yoshikkko]

i support this
please no gen 5 badges

 

[antemortem]

we currently have something similar (the new user ranks that denote staff positions), but i'd definitely like to see a more thorough system in place sometime in the future. something has been "in the works", as Mana put it, for going on a year now (if not a bit longer), so it's on its way.

 

[Hikamaru]

I do enjoy the current emblems system but if everyone wants change I'd be okay with this proposed new system. It'd be helpful for recognizing one's activity in certain areas, as mentioned above.

 

[Altairis]

I would love a system like Smogon's, perhaps with Pokeballs or something idk. I think that it could work here, too, and Emblems aren't really incentive enough in some cases.

 

[Kotone]

i've been on another forum where you get points for posting. then you spend the points to earn badges. it would be nice to have something else besides the emblems!

 

[Maruno]

I don't think there's any particular difference between Smogon's badges and our emblems. Maybe the badges are a bit more visible as they're in the postbit, while our emblems are just sat in the profile (I suggested a while ago to add emblems to the postbit precisely to make them more visible, but somehow that didn't go anywhere). I also see that Smogon's badges give the bearer a few special perks which, frankly, everyone here already has anyway. The only difference is how ubiquitous they are, and our emblems have certainly run wild.

With that said, I wouldn't want to replace the emblem system with something else. I'd like to see it honed, made more exclusive and meaningful. Cut down on the many emblems we have, and just keep the ones that offer actual prestige like being an outstanding member in one section or another. No more competition winner emblems (there's too many of those anyway, part of the reason being that we can't have the same emblem more than once), no more joke emblems.

So what happens with the competition winner emblems and the joke/light-hearted emblems? Well, that's where a separate new system comes in, as mentioned by the other staff members in here. I like the sound of this new system, although it's far from finalised and it seems we (the staff) don't yet understand which niche it's supposed to fill (i.e. which kinds of achievements are for emblems and which are for this new system).

I think the emblem system should be retained, simply because we'd be keeping it anyway even if it's just for archival purposes (because everyone would complain if they were suddenly all deleted in a clean slate movement). We might as well keep using emblems, if we're keeping them around no matter what, and as I said, I'd like to use them for the big achievements and recognitions. We'll have a new system for the more light-hearted and fun stuff, so there's room here for both of them to be of use. And then hopefully we'll reconsider the emblem improvements I've suggested (showing maybe six of them in the postbit, allowing multiples to be awarded, etc.).

 

[antemortem]

our emblem system differs from smogon in that they strictly reward badges based on site contributions; we award the prime majority of emblems based on achievements, such as winning contests, or "because we like this member" (that's what ego emblems are)

 

[wolf]

The new reward system that's in the works doesn't accomplish the same purpose like badges would. Badges are meant to be similar to ranks, which can only be granted by contributing to the site according to a badge's requirements. This maintains the integrity of the badges/ranks, and encourages members to provide certain contributions. For these reasons I think they should be considered alongside the new system. Badges would reward contributions, and the other would reward achievements.

 

[Kip]

Tbh I like our emblem system as it is. It's more about fun than just achieving something - that way a person's profile with 50 emblems isn't considered "higher" than someone with 5, because it's all part of the fun. :P The only suggestion I would suggest is being able to select say three emblems to show off on your profile page sidebar, like a trophy cabinet.

As for postbit badges I'm fifty-fifty over it. There's the danger that it might turn into the rep system again, so people will try to contribute just for the badges rather than wanting to contribute and getting rewarded for it as intended. I think I'm always slightly hesitant over postbits that rank some users higher than others (irony abounds from the Crystal tier supporter lol). That being said, PC members are surprisingly mature compared to other sites when it comes to ranks, so it could work. I don't think Smogon's system would translate directly to PC very well, but one tailored from the ground-up could work. I'd be interested to see what the staff guys are coming up with. Just so long as emblems don't change. :P

 

[Anti]

Just to be clear, I'm much less concerned with removing emblems than with adding what I'm proposing. If what I'm proposing would supplement rather than replace emblems, that's fine by me. This proposal is definitely different than the niche emblems have though, as others have mentioned above.

The concern about badge whoring is legitimate, and from what I understand, this phenomenon exists at Smogon to some degree. I think that's something that can be mitigated with an objective-as-possible distribution system, but I also don't think that it's something that outweighs what it could bring to the forum. Perfect is the enemy of good, I guess.

While I am the last person to ask about aesthetics, the Poke Ball suggestion actually kind of strikes my fancy. X)

Anyway, in terms of "something being in the works," I am glad to hear that, but I guess I kind of share the same sentiment as wolf in that I hope that whatever is being worked on would actually be helpful in solving the problems mentioned in the OP and achieving some or most of those goals. I'll admit that it's very weird to be speaking in hypotheticals about this without much information on it. I fully understand that I am not entitled to that information and can't make any demands that whatever is in the works meets the specifications of my OP, but all the same, I guess I wanted to ask, with all due respect, if what is in the works is actually accomplishing the same goals as what I'm proposing? The distinction wolf is making seems pretty important to me, though I obviously don't know the details of it like he does.

 

[curiousnathan]

I've always been one for completely obliterating (brutal I know) the emblem system. I can say that something really cool is in the works, but I am also interested in a badge system. Having both a badge system and emblems just seems superfluous to me, but each to their own.

 

[Yoshikkko]

badges and emblems wouldn't be the same thing at all, so i don't agree that having them both is superfluous. yes they are rewards, but emblems (no offense) are kind of meaningless, you can literally get an emblem for everything. you can get an emblem for NOT being here (brb emblem), you can get an emblem for being liked by a certain moderator-- emblems are really subjective and most of them are arbitrary. previous posts summed it up pretty well, but badges on the other hand would be given out objectively and are a recognition of contribution (at least that's how they work on smogon). i'm guessing they have strict guidelines as to what you have to have done before you can get a certain one. you can't get one for being funny. also, for this reason emblems don't motivate me to do stuff at all, but badges would and that's ultimately the goal, to get people motivated to contribute more.

also, this makes it possible for everyone to be recognized. if you contribute (enough), you get a badge. everyone can do this. it's not about standing out or being well-liked or making 50 posts a day. that's why i don't get people who argue that badges would just add to "cliqueyness", if anything they'd even it out (if used as intended).

[...]
The only negatives to this idea is the fact that badge-hungry people would attempt to get this to show off their status and flaunt it, but honestly the chances of this happening are very minuscule and for the long time that I've been here, PC is very quick to admonish those who are....not so nice and push others around, so to speak. So this is fairly negligible.

i mean, you'd have to contribute something to get one, so i don't see how that'd be a bad thing. the more contribution the better. there's nothing wrong with showing off something that you worked for.

 

[curiousnathan]

I am in favour of the badges, but only at the expense of emblems.

 

[Nah]

@Anti: the thing in the works is iirc more like emblems 2.0 (there hasn't been any discussion on it, at least where I can see it, in months so someone correct me if I'm wrong). I do however like the badge thing and would like to see that implemented as well.

 

[Nah]

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding...I suppose what I'm getting at is that, using Smogon as a comparitive example, you have those who contribute, sure, but they do a really poor job of doing it. Think about it as it applies to BTB: consistently poor team rates, medicore quality posting, all for the sake of meeting whatever objective or subjective requirements are set in place for whatever badges we have. Does that make more sense?

Then we just don't give out badges to people who do that sort of thing. I suppose I can only speak for myself, and I'm not a BTB mod, but I wouldn't give out a BTB contributor badge to someone who gives shit team rates/advice and and posts just for the sake of getting the badge. It is, at least in my opinion, usually easy to see who truly brings quality and meaningful contributions to a section and those who don't/are just trying to get the badge as a status symbol.

 

[Maruno]

I've always been one for completely obliterating (brutal I know) the emblem system. I can say that something really cool is in the works, but I am also interest in a badge system. Having both a badge system and emblems just seem superfluous to me, but each to their own.

badges and emblems wouldn't be the same thing at all, so i don't agree that having them both is superfluous. yes they are rewards, but emblems (no offense) are kind of meaningless, you can literally get an emblem for everything.

You're thinking about emblems as they are now. It is entirely possible to become stricter with emblem awarding, cut out the silly emblems, and generally make them as earned as badges would be. I'm quite tired with people dismissing emblems as though they could never change - the new system would very much help to focus emblems, if we let it. We shouldn't just drop emblems entirely without even trying to improve them (badges would be just the same as emblems anyway, except more exclusive, but exclusivity is entirely in the power of the staff who hand them out so why not try it with emblems first?).

We (staff) need to get some clarification and agreements going for both this new system and emblems, so that we know what's planned and what's going on. Then maybe we can avoid silly talk about replacing one system (emblems) with an identical system (badges).

On a separate note, has anyone ever tried explaining why "no one cares about emblems"? I can guess at some of the reasons, but I'd rather hear them stated and discussed rather than see sweeping and inaccurate statements like that. If this thread is asking for more incentives, we should probably first reason why the existing incentives are allegedly inadequate.