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New OU Suspect Round - "Run The Jewels"

People complain about Mega Sableye because most of them hate stall, really.

Most teams on the ladder are offensive or contain stuff like Lando-T/Heatran/Rotom-W, you know, cookie cutter stuff. Many of these teams really struggle against Mega Sableye stall. They don't bother to play stall because this way most matches would be very long, and people like to finish opposing teams quickly, so they can climb up the ladder and save time. This is why I prefer tournaments to a degree.

It's a pleasure to see a Pokemon like Mega Eye in the meta and it's even more of a pleasure to see toddlers whining about it every day. It's not hard to prepare for it, even if you're a bad teambuilder like I am. Use a fairy-type, Mega Lopunny, **** that can 2HKO it, etc etc.
 
Polar Spectrum said:
Gothitelle isn't broken; shadow tag is. If you disagree with this statement, please briefly explain to me how competitive gothitelle is in need of a ban as well.

But yeah I suspect reasons for Mega Sableye being thrown up there- reasons that aren't exactly "To create the perfect most balanced metagame". Imo keep both; ban shadow tag. Or - get real specific - just ban gothitelle with shadow tag. Keep other shadow taggers, keep gothitelle without shadow tag, just ban her with it.
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Nah said:
The ideal thing I suppose would to be to just ban Shadow Tag on Goth, but I don't really see them doing that. It's always seemed to me like they tend to not like doing any remotely "complex" ban, with the exception this gen being Baton Pass.
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i'm not sure this is even disagreeing w/ yall, but a shadow tag ban wouldn't ban gothitelle, just like how the drizzlie ban in uu doesn't ban politoed. there would be virtually no collateral unless you think shadow tag gothita or wynaut is collateral, and at that point you're just picking at nits and it's pretty reasonable that tiering wouldn't get that painstakingly precise. so there isn't any reason for a complex ban of goth+shadow tag because the current suspect is effectively doing the same thing.
 
Anti said:
i'm not sure this is even disagreeing w/ yall, but a shadow tag ban wouldn't ban gothitelle, just like how the drizzlie ban in uu doesn't ban politoed. there would be virtually no collateral unless you think shadow tag gothita or wynaut is collateral, and at that point you're just picking at nits and it's pretty reasonable that tiering wouldn't get that painstakingly precise. so there isn't any reason for a complex ban of goth+shadow tag because the current suspect is effectively doing the same thing.
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Nah I know that banning ST doesn't ban Goth, and like I said earlier I'm completely fine with Wobb/Wynaut/Gothorita being collateral in this since ST is an aids ability that should've been banned a long time ago. I think I was just more trying to say that they wouldn't really consider banning it just on Goth. idk


ngl tho, I really would not be surprised if the vote goes the way of banning Mega Sableye and keeping Shadow Tag in OU :|
 
Anti said:
i'm not sure this is even disagreeing w/ yall, but a shadow tag ban wouldn't ban gothitelle, just like how the drizzlie ban in uu doesn't ban politoed. there would be virtually no collateral unless you think shadow tag gothita or wynaut is collateral, and at that point you're just picking at nits and it's pretty reasonable that tiering wouldn't get that painstakingly precise. so there isn't any reason for a complex ban of goth+shadow tag because the current suspect is effectively doing the same thing.
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Yeah; we're on the same page. I'm all for the shadow tag ban - I'm just looking at how swagon has it proposed; and on their forums it's saying Gothitelle suspect, not shadow tag. So I'm really hoping it IS for the ability, not the poke - since as you said, they're not gonna do just her with just that ability. Please do correct me if I'm mistaken here, it would be a relief.

Apologies if I've failed to accurately scry this information from their site; I was just voicing how wrong I think a ban of Gothitelle would be without consideration of its validity running alternate abilities. And no lol I don't care about wobbuffet, wynaut, and gothorita.
 
Polar Spectrum said:
Yeah; we're on the same page. I'm all for the shadow tag ban - I'm just looking at how swagon has it proposed; and on their forums it's saying Gothitelle suspect, not shadow tag. So I'm really hoping it IS for the ability, not the poke - since as you said, they're not gonna do just her with just that ability. Please do correct me if I'm mistaken here, it would be a relief.

Apologies if I've failed to accurately scry this information from their site; I was just voicing how wrong I think a ban of Gothitelle would be without consideration of its validity running alternate abilities. And no lol I don't care about wobbuffet, wynaut, and gothorita.
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it's definitely for the ability not goth, as seen in the op here. some people have been arguing to just ban goth or some other type of ban (and have been rejected, multiple times), while some just use goth and tag interchangeably because goth is the poke that inspired the test.

their policy on abilities, which i think is very smart, is that they only get banned if they're broken on otherwise mediocre mons (like how drizzle poli can break uu even though poli sucks w/o drizzle). this is why protean wasn't banned but greninja was. torrent greninja isn't broken, but neither is protean gothitelle. shadow tag is obviously busted af even on a poke as bad as goth, so tag, not goth, is the suspect.
 
Anti said:
it's definitely for the ability not goth, as seen in the op here. some people have been arguing to just ban goth or some other type of ban (and have been rejected, multiple times), while some just use goth and tag interchangeably because goth is the poke that inspired the test.

their policy on abilities, which i think is very smart, is that they only get banned if they're broken on otherwise mediocre mons (like how drizzle poli can break uu even though poli sucks w/o drizzle). this is why protean wasn't banned but greninja was. torrent greninja isn't broken, but neither is protean gothitelle. shadow tag is obviously busted af even on a poke as bad as goth, so tag, not goth, is the suspect.
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Yay.



I like gothitelle. Competitive in doubles discourages intimidations and icy winds. Carry on Swagon; carry on.

I almost made a 'leave gothitelle alone" image for this.
 
I've gotten the idea everyone hates shadowtag but honestly isn't it more Shadowtag + Gothitelle? I've yet to see anyone mention arena trap probably because the only user of it outside LC is Dugtrio who is...I mean he's fast and that's cool. I don't see why smogon couldn't handle shadowtag goth by adding a new clause dictating goth as OU but shadowtag goth as Ubers. This would also open up the door for a finer tuning of all meta tiers in the future.
 
[PokeCommunity.com] New OU Suspect Round - "Run The Jewels"


This is the right thing.

However i cant help but wonder what Goths exiting OU will do. Im mostly concerned about how Goth checked ******** mons like Banaphy, MGardy, Hoopa-U and Togekiss especially, for balance, stall and bulky offense aka slower teams this is going to be a negative aspect in that Goth was one of the biggest checks/revenge killers to those aforementioned pokemon or cockblocks stopping their sweep. I know "broken checking broken" is not a good argument but these pokemon are not particularly healthy or balanced for the metagame imo (i mean what is healthy about having like 4 different rain dance tail glow scald rest cm ******** coverage sets, or base 160/170 offenses or using "skill" to ******** flinch your way past counters and checks? :/), Gardy isnt AS bad as the other 3 because they are more mindless but still lol. ~_~ It will be interesting if they cause more issues now Goth is gone. Having said that i shall enjoy counter teaming those pieces of ****. :D

Another positive is i expect stuff like MVenu to get more usage and other things that are totally slain by goth (see clef, chansey) and other defensive mons and not having to worry about your breaker crippled, walls and stuff like loom and Keldeo trapped is a massive positive for obv reasons.


But yeah cool beans.
 
Good, I won't miss shadow tag. Don't care much for M-Sableye, but happy to see he didn't get moved up to ubers too. That would have caused a bit of an uproar lol.
 
Hurray!

Seriously, I've only been back into competitive for a short time but the number of times I've been totally screwed over by Shadow Tag in recent memory is ridiculous. I'm also equally pleased that this probably means we can kiss Manaphy goodbye and that M-Sableye is still in OU where it's a perfectly fair and viable pokemon.
 
since numerous people have brought it up, i'm just going to bite: why does everyone here think manaphy is an obvious suspect that needs to be removed from the tier? its rain sets' favorable matchups with stall are only getting you so far--every style has a ton of constraints that are tough to build around. is there something outstanding about manaphy?
 
other than tg? nah not really
all its sets are mostly match up dependent
 
srinator said:
other than tg? nah not really
all its sets are mostly match up dependent
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All its sets force team match ups to a ridiculous extent.

Anti said:
since numerous people have brought it up, i'm just going to bite: why does everyone here think manaphy is an obvious suspect that needs to be removed from the tier? its rain sets' favorable matchups with stall are only getting you so far--every style has a ton of constraints that are tough to build around. is there something outstanding about manaphy?
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What is outstanding about Manaphy (lets go with the obvious), Tail Glow is an absolutely ridiculous move first of all. Secondly combined with HydraRest and Scald make it further ******** and put all its counters on a timer essentially which means Manaphy will usually outlast them and then when you add it can run any number of Ice Beam, Energy Ball, HP Fire and Psychic and even Rain Dance (all very common and viable) you've got something that basically shits on every play style not called heavy offense. Manaphy is notorious for shredding balance, bulky offense and stall basically or more commonly "ill fodder my Lati@s/Rotom-W to weaken it and not actually KO it" which is basically if you cannot directly OHKO it, it shreds you or you're sacking something to take it out ala DPPtHGSS Mence. Calm Mind is also relevant because it takes things such as Latias/checks and uses most of them as set up fodder with Scald. I mean you can try and counter moveset it which is stupid for a start because it legit runs about 3 Rain Dance Tail Glow sets alone and all 3 of them have different counters and checks, only to run into CMPhy or some Psychic HP Fire ******** again all which have different counters and checks which is just amplified by HydraRest and Scald. I just dont think something that forces match ups and constraints on team building to this extent to every team that isnt called HO is healthy for the metagame and im glad smogon is taking notice of it now lol. @_@
 
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Definitely think they made the right move here. Mega Sableye is definitely questionable as to whether it's overpowered but if I had voting powers I would have voted for it to stay OU. In particular I think Fire-type setup sweepers (especially those that run Nasty Plot or Swords Dance) are pretty good answers to Mega Sableye, and Clefable & Mega Lopunny are decent answers too though they both fear Will-O-Wisp (unless Clefable has Magic Guard). Gothitelle on the other hand was a nightmare. The Trick + Scarf + Shadow Tag combination was broken imo and it is good to see that kind of gameplay is out of OU.
 
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