Physical force in parenting

[Mana1]

Some of the phrases here I find somewhat troubling.

The idea that children who weren't beaten don't respect their parents / children respect parents who do beat them. Not only is the correlation here likely very weak but it also sets a disturbing tone for adult life. "Want someone to respect you? Beat them up, show them you're stronger, show them you're in charge" etc.etc. I don't support that view, therefore it makes no sense to hit a child to make them 'respect' you.

I also find the idea of it being "necessary" awful. Hitting someone in general is rarely necessary - even in an act of self defense hitting someone back is a last resort. I can understand you might need to physically restrain your child if they were aggressive but otherwise no.

When I have a child I hope I never make the silly choice to hit them :(. I'll give most parents the benefit of the doubt that they do it in the heat of the moment and regret it instantly.

 

[5qwerty]

I agree with hitting your children as long as it's not done in anger, but to teach them a lesson and to show that they're the boss.

I did dumb crap as a child and I needed to be punished.

 

[tokyodrift]

I don't condone abuse. However, I do condone discipline. Those, for me anyway, came in the form of spankings. I learned from those that if I did such a thing again, I knew the consequences.

 

[gimmepie]

Surely this is something that still mostly on the child? If a child is going to be extremely stubborn and resist then sometimes a shock to the system (IE spanking) will jolt then into perhaps realising being that way isn't the best idea.

It doesn't teach any moral lesson though. It just teaches the child that when your parents get angry they'll hit you.

The points made about it teaching children to just resort to violence with problems in later life make sense, but I feel this comes from EXCESSIVE amounts of said physical approach. When you start using it as your 'go to' to tell your child to stop, THAT is when the boundary is being breached and that's when it becomes abuse and not discipline.

Otherwise I don't see much harm in it every once in a while; also just remember that one lesson is not the only lesson we teach younger people - with that in tow if violent behaviour starts to form then naturally the parent will try to explain and show the child why it is bad to apply physical means as an answer to every problem.

Kids are extremely impressionable, especially when they're really young. Sometimes once or twice can be all it takes for the child to go "Well if you can hit me when you're mad, why can't I beat the crap out of Timmy when he takes my stuff?"

They're also smarter than we give them credit for a lot of the time and will use examples of things you have done against you. On top of that, an upset and/or scared child isn't going to see any reasoning, they'll just see and angry parent beating them and even if the reasoning is explained later when they're calm, as a general rule what image is the one that's going to stick in the kid's brain?

 

[gimmepie]

This is from my own culture, so of course it's going to be different from others, but the way I was raised, I didn't dare get into fights. Not even to like, defend myself. My mother was so strict on me being a goody two-shoes student that if I ever got into any conflict that got me suspended, I'd get a beating for sure. I've never gotten the impression that I should beat someone up just because my mother beat me, because she'd kick my ass more as punishment if I were to act like an idiot.

Of course, this varies from child to child, but those are my experiences. It's not so black and white as the child automatically assuming something is ok just because the parent does it. If you threaten the child enough that the resulting consequence would be worse off for them for it (in my experiences, anyway), I would think they would usually avoid taking that action.

I don't mean to imply every child will act the same, that's never going to be true. I'm talking about general trends etc.

 

[SonOfPickle]

I think there is a fine line between abuse and just a harsh punishment. I see abuse as unjust physical/emotional harm. A spanking or discipline is deserved. I'm not saying that a parent should ever beat a kid senseless, but a few hits on the back or rear is just. I notice lots of kids nowadays that believe they can get away with anything with no consequence, which I find troubling. If there could be a small physical consequence to reprimand a child, I think that is good for a kid in the long run.

 

[Sirius Black]

Excuse this mini-long rant about this topic; I stumbled upon this thread and fear I may never get out...

Alright; I don't honestly think Physical Force should be used in parenting AT ALL. Let me delve into this a bit from my own history; and history of my little brothers, etc. I've grown up in such a household where very little wasn't known by the children/teenagers/young adults. We knew everything that went on because our parents were very bad about hiding some of their actions. They weren't always bad people, but as life kept beating down on them and as they kept making 'mistakes' as we were called, they got more and more disassociated with reality. This in turn led to a lot of physical and mental 'abuse'. Naturally, you've got those kids who take all of that in stride and become great people, and those of them who don't. However; part of that process when growing up can cause uncalled for fears; for instance -- I am a person who is unnaturally confident in things that other people get scared about; quite often, and yet; I was very stunted when it came to taking a really huge step into adult-hood which was getting my license and car. Let me iterate this; I am a very experienced Driver by this point and I was even before getting my license, HOWEVER; a lot of mental abuse and arguments happened in the Car for me; it happened whilst my Dad and Mom would be driving and they'd often break at least 15 different laws while doing so, this caused me to have an unnatural fear of the Road because of paranoia and flashbacks of those incidents every time I was driving USUALLY with the same people.

On that same line of topic; I also had a lot of physical 'punishment' in the same scenario for being stubborn. Kids don't like being yelled at; it's a common fact, and when I would retort with something smart, i'd usually get my face slapped or a hand slammed into my Thigh; this type of Physical Force was always deemed acceptable by officials in South Carolina; and for some reason, every time one of us growing up ever tried to report it, it was dismissed with no further investigation.

I can vividely recall an incident where I was 14 years old and I got written up at school for leaving my School I.D. at home because I was in a rush and forgot it; I came home that day and got a spanking from my Dad. I was FOURTEEN -- He used a lot more force than was necessary and by the time he had done the first 'lick' as it was called, I was in so much pain that I swung my arm behind to cover myself and I guess at the same exact time he had gone for the second lick because the belt wrapped around my arm and left a long purple lash mark, he stopped after that; but when people questioned it I said NOTHING because it never worked; nobody ever listened.

My case is obviously way out of the ballpark as opposed to normal families of course; but let me put it like this; I was often punished with material items as well, for instance, when a new game had came out for a console that I wanted; my parents would buy it and tape it to my ceiling so that i'd be motivated to work for it; this did WAY more in regards to my work ethic and attitude than anything they could ever do Physically, and it actually stuck with me.

It is of my opinion that the type of treatment that we deem as acceptable really isn't anymore; spankings have never done much for most people in the long run except instill proper behavior through fear of pain. That's wrong. Completely.

I learned how to work hard by myself; I got out of my former-household at the age of 16; and nothing my parents could ever do taught me anything about being responsible except that Smoking, Drinking, and Substance Abuse could ruin a person; and obviously it holds true when you look at a lot of my Generation. (I count 1990-1999 as my Generation.)

All i'm going to say is this; resentment is born through pain, I resented my 'parents' for a really long time; it's been two years since I got out of my household and it took me that two years to really and truly figure out how to not hold that anger towards them so close to my chest and be a different person.

Physical Force isn't a necessity in raising a child; children are very perceptive and can easily learn how to act responsible if they see their parents/role-models doing what would be deemed responsible by society.

Tl;DR - Physical Force comes in varying qualities but is never necessary, coming from someone who came in a very Abusive household, it was never safe and always something to fear, going home that is. Think about that before Mentally or Physically making that child fear you as a prospective parent.

 

[Kayasaya]

Hitting is never the solution, i believe that speaking, restricting things that are no wrights, and every kind of discipline method that does not involve physical or psychological damage seems perfect to me. The law would never punish you with hits or psychological abuse, they will get part of your human wrights to teach you and reform you, but they are too late, those punishments should be at home, respecting the integrity of its child.

 

[Shamol]

I feel like almost everyone here who's speaking against physical force in parenting isn't against physical force simpliciter- they're against it being done within (or bereft of) a peculiar context. For example, I see the "beating isn't pedagogical" theme coming up again and again. Well if children's misbehaviors are corrected by beatings and nothing but, then of course it wouldn't really count as "teaching", and wouldn't serve any moral purpose (also note- this applies for verbal disciplinary measures as well, and maybe in some contexts even more so). But I can very well imagine scenarios where parents do indeed succeed in instilling appropriate morality and rationality in their children, and yet the children waive these responsibilities despite knowing better. If the parents choose to reprimand the children verbally or physically, I don't see how they've violated any pedagogical rule by this. Some sort of a reward/punishment structure is inherent in human ethical motivations, and at the end of the day people wouldn't be good even if- pace Socrates- they had an acute knowledge of good and evil. Most people, despite being well educated, still look for the proverbial carrot and the stick when making decisions. All of this applies all the more so for children, who don't have as much of a moral control on their actions and would often waive responsibilities. In these cases, I don't see why parents who are otherwise good moral teachers cannot resort to some form of a reward/punishment structure to provide additional motivations for the children to be moral. Again, knowing good and evil isn't the same as being motivated to do good and abstain from evil. Plato, for all his talk about altruism for the sake of altruism, still incorporated myths of postmortem reward and punishment in his dialogues. Kant, for all his moral theorizing centralized around being good for the sake of goodness, had to appeal to some form of a transcendent reward/punishment principle. This is not a defense of transcendent ethical motivations, but rather it speaks to the simple point that even avowed moralists agree that some form of a reward/punishment structure is absolutely essential to the human condition and teaching alone doesn't always help as act morally. I think parental disciplinary measures, physical force being one example, adopts the same principle. So I fail to see how beating as such violates the pedagogical responsibilities of the parents.

 

[killer-curry]

In my opinion, using physical force in parenting is to teach children about discipline. I been taught about manners and also got a lot of physical punishments for doing bad things during my childhood, but some of the parents against it as overused would lead to abusing and also mental and physical health damage towards child.

So, is it allowable to have physical punishment? yes, if the parents have their responsibility to teach their children.

 

[pastelspectre]

i only like using it when it's absolutely necessary. i didn't need it much as a child because i listened well and followed rules but my big sister is a different story..she's very hard headed. so she often has to be disciplined. i only find physical force necessary when they need to be disciplined.

 

[Her]

i only like using it when it's absolutely necessary. i didn't need it much as a child because i listened well and followed rules but my big sister is a different story..she's very hard headed. so she often has to be disciplined. i only find physical force necessary when they need to be disciplined.

For the purpose of the thread, what line does it have to cross for it to become necessary?

 

[Caaethil]

i only like using it when it's absolutely necessary.

Wait, you have children? I can only image your child is either very young, you're hitting someone else's child or your tongue slipped. Now I'm curious, because the former two sound very bad.

 

[pastelspectre]

no. i don't have children, thank you. i have a little sister who is very hard headed. i don't know. i haven't really disciplined a child before. i apologize, i'm sure my two answers above were..badly worded. i guess i only find discipline necessary in certain situations? as in dire situations, ones that absolutely need it. i'm not sure which ones that would be. i'll just..delete my other post but.. ah. i'm not sure when the situation would need it. i don't have children. i won't have them for another 5-10 years possibly. but my mom tends to discipline my little sister only when my little sister keeps pushing my mom's buttons and keeps whining and whining, for like..30 minutes straight.

 

[gimmepie]

But my mom tends to discipline my little sister only when my little sister keeps pushing my mom's buttons and keeps whining and whining, for like..30 minutes straight.

That's pretty normal behaviour for any child. If you ask me physical violence to punish whining, even excessive whining, is even more excessive than any length of seemingly endless whinging.

 

[pastelspectre]

That's true..I don't know. I wouldn't do it personally I guess. I'm not sure when I would use physical force..I guess it depends on the situation. I don't have children yet..so I don't know. ://

 

[gimmepie]

I dunno. What people consider "excessive" in your way of life is "normal" to mine, and many others. I've seen parents smack children in the mouth for doing so much as crying too much, and that's something that's completely normal to me. I grew up around that atmosphere, and, at least in my eyes, that was the norm and standard for physical discipline. There's no one line that can be crossed, it's whether or not you piss off your parents enough for them to hit you, and what angers them obviously differs from parent to parent and what culture they themselves grew up in and what values they choose to instill in their children as a result of their upbringing.

And there lies the problem.

In fact, I'm really surprised a lot of people in this thread don't consider it normal and find it a form of abuse. Not that I would do the same thing myself if I had any children (honestly, physical force only worked on me to a degree; it's not something you should do all the time), it's just that I kind of see where those parents who do use physical force come from. In their eyes, utilizing physical force is the best measure to get their children to show utmost respect, get them in line and teach them a lesson to not act up again.

There's the other half.

Exactly as I was saying earlier. You don't learn anything from physical violence except that if people make you angry it's acceptable to hit them. Then on top of that it's just straight up less effective for all the various reasons that have already been discussed.

Honestly, I get that in some cultures there's different boundaries etc. That's not the problem. It doesn't matter what's culturally acceptable because objectively corporal punishment isn't as good a form of discipline as others (as a general rule of course, no absolutes)..

 

[gimmepie]

Actually, I disagree, here.

It completely matters what is culturally acceptable and what it isn't. I don't quite understand why you'd dimiss a concept such as culture when it's very relevant to raising a child? You may disagree with physical force personally, but I don't think it's fair to say it's "objectively" worse (or even better, really) than any other punishment, because there's many factors that play into how you raise a child than just punishments. There's a huge difference between say, if you're primarily from a surburban white family that uses physical punishment as compared to say, a Hispanic or Jamaican or Haitian or Dominican family (I'm using mostly Caribbean ethnicities since they're mostly known for strict parenting, to my knowledge) that enforces similar values.

Again, as I said, physical force isn't something you should do all the time, otherwise it becomes increasingly less effective over time. However, in general? It's hardly a bad thing, at least in my eyes. It's hard to give defined examples of when it's appropriate and when it isn't appropriate because it's entirely situational; what I think would be a fine situation to use physical force, you might think it's ideal to sit down and have a talk with them, another person might not even care all that much, which is entirely where culture comes into play and where it's entirely very much relevant.

You say you don't learn anything from physical violence, well I disagree with that, too. From my own upbringing, I've learned a shitton from my beatings. I said "to an extent", because as you grow older, obviously it's not going to be as effective (and by then you should have your shit together, anyway), but if we're talking about early-mid childhood and early adolescent age, then I personally don't see the issue with utilizing physical discipline to instill values and lessons into children. Low grades? Causing issues at school? Or in general doing just about anything that your parents disapprove of? That's grounds for an automatic beating to instill strict values on what you should and shouldn't do.

That isn't a problem. That's a way of life.

Culture is irrelevant because it doesn't change the effectiveness. It doesn't matter what a culture considers "okay" because the bottom line is the human brain doesn't work that way. Children's brains do not grasp the abstract of it they only see ruling through fear and that doesn't teach important lessons at best and at worst teaches bad ones.

The rest of your post only highlights this point. You've made it very clear that beatings don't teach morality and they don't teach empathy. They teach you that if you make mommy and daddy mad they'll hit you. In a worst case scenario, it encourages that behaviour.

That's very much a problem. This being prevalent in any culture is a problem. I don't care if it's a way of life. It being a way of life is a problem.

 

[Nah]

The thing is Angie is that the question being asked here isn't "is this normal?", but rather "is this morally ok?", "is this an actually effective form of discipline?". You've answered why it's a normal part of some cultures, but that doesn't explain anything else. There have been a number of things in the past that were the norm that were wrong or ineffective. "It's the norm" is kind if just argumentum ad populum really.

 

[gimmepie]

The point of physical discipline is, as a I said, to instill values and lessons when it is required. Only when kids have seriously fucked up in something (or at least, in my own case) do they really get beatings. This is going to sound sappy, but my parents never gave me beatings for shits and giggles, they gave me beatings because they wanted to see me improve as an individual and they made that very clear.

In that sense, it's not even about what you discipline your child with, it's more of the how and why.

This is all well and good but if that's the point of it, it's not a very good method of fulfilling that point. In earlier posts of your own you've even mentioned that really you were just behaving out of fear of getting hit and that's not the same thing as having understanding and empathy.

I would even argue that if you're only acting a certain way to avoid pain then you're not really a better person than you were before, just self-serving.