Regarding abortions...

[MortalPhoenix]

Too tired to do proper replies just posting to say I've seen stuff and will get back to you.

So you are going to use anecdotal evidence to support your claim. :/

 

[gimmepie]

So you are going to use anecdotal evidence to support your claim. :/

I meant I've seen your replies -_-

 

[FlameChrome]

I mean, there is a chance some women will just keep getting abortions just so they cant give birth and have lots of sex, chance which is actually really slim.
I say legalize it because not all times women are ready to be mothers, and if you have seen some of those adopting agencies, they are actually bit of a bad quality. I actually havent seen too many of them, but the ones portraid on TV and movies are not good at all. So not letting a person be born is better than having them probably live in a crappy home or chance of being homeless. Plus sometimes people get caught up in the moment and forget to use protection. Thats just my thoughts though.

 

[gimmepie]

Who is using abortion as their primary contraceptive, though? Here's an article with some pretty interesting, cited, stats re: that exact subject.

https://www.guttmacher.org/news-rel...-report-using-contraception-month-they-became

Slightly over half of abortion patients reported using a form of contraception the month they became pregnant, and just under 10% of those were using the pull out method which is about as effective as politely asking a baby not to happen. That means an enormous number of people are not using protection and then seeking abortion.

I'm pro choice, Ursula summed it up nicely but also:
What if she's raped? People don't choose to be raped, and they shouldn't have to live with it.

That would be an extreme circumstance effecting the wellbeing of the mother.

Some men are just dicks when it comes to using protection and birth control for women can be expensive because most governments are assholes about it.

Pro-tip: If he's being a dick about protection, don't have sex with him.

In a lot of countries women have literally no options and yet are still shamed for making this last choice.

In countries where contraception isn't an option, I highly doubt abortion is readily available through legal channels. Making contraception readily available is the solution here.

Also what choices someone makes are not the business of strangers. Other people shouldn't get to decide what you do. especially if they don't have to live with the choices? It just seems weird to me.

This seems to operate under the assumption that we're not talking about a separate living entity, we are. I'm advocating for human lives that are not in a position to advocate for themselves. There's nothing strange about that.

Well I would say the fathers opinion matters on the basis of how involved he is in the mothers life and wants to be involved in the life of the potential baby...since he's not carrying it.

Not unreasonable.

As for the 'case of irresponsibility' there could be so many differing factors for every different case and as Ursula pointed out it's really not the norm. Again as far as 'living with the consequences' this could very likely bring an unwanted and unloved child into the world. The mother has no obligation to love the child after all and could potentially be highly resentful of its existence. That's not fair on anyone.

Irresponsibility is irresponsibility, let's not pretend otherwise. Even in the case of the people who are using contraception, it is common knowledge that no method is 100% effective and you have to acknowledge that there is a certain degree of risk involved.

Better use of resources to improve how governments deal with children without parents/involved parents would deal with that problem. Pretty much every developed nation, and I'd guess many undeveloped ones, have the resources to provide perfectly good lives to children who would otherwise get stuck in a shitty foster system and are misusing them. I can't support the easy ending of life with that as an excuse for it when I know it doesn't have to be that way.

As for "it's not that common". I've dealt with that point already. 54% of the people who get abortions used contraception, that means the remaining 46% don't. Of course, since 9% of that 54% are using the pull-out method it's actually more like 45% are using contraception and 55% are not. It's a lot more common than people seem to want to acknowledge. It might not necessarily be an easy choice, but it's still a choice people are making.

Huh? Regardless of whether or not it applies to you personally it is definitely a fair point to make in the moral aspects of abortion. I feel like you're just deflecting because you didn't want to engage this.

It applies because I'm defending my own view point, not the traditional pro-life camp's.

I think you're confusing sentience for sapience here. And 'here' is different for everyone as this is an international forum but the evidence is only a few clicks away to see how bad livestock is often treated. Also: laws=/=morals. But the relevant point I was making is the creating of life to come into the world for the purpose of slaughter, for me that is much worse than ending an unwanted conception.

Here for me, is Australia. There's still a lot of work to be done for humane treatment of animals here but we're better than a lot of other places. I've been on farms, I've seen animals being treated well. I also know that inhumane treatment of animals carries high fines and potentially jail time which people generally don't want to experience.

"For you", sorry now who is pushing their opinions onto things?

I see that you value human life above other forms of life and I won't judge you for that since it is a norm we have all grown up with. I'm just asking for the same courtesy for women that find themselves in the unfortunate position of having an unwanted pregnancy. You can't have "human life is more valuable than animal life" as an objective truth as much as I also can't have "fetal matter isn't a person" as an objective truth.

I feel like you're just deflecting from this because you don't want to engage the comparison. Again, you can't have "human life is more valuable than animal life" as an objective truth as much as I also can't have "fetal matter isn't a person" as an objective truth.

I think you are severely mistaking my values to an extent. I don't believe human life is inherently more valuable than other life. The reason killing for food is okay is because it's an exchange of one life of equal value for another life.

Getting an abortion under most circumstances isn't anything like that. It's trading a life to make life easier. There's no equity in that. I'm not giving sympathy and a license to kill to the 55% of people who don't use proper contraception and are then shocked when they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. You don't have the right to take a life because you were irresponsible. You might sway me on cases like Hands', but that would cease to be the case if the resource management issue was resolved and society started providing for those children properly.

I'm no deflecting anything. Fetal matter is a distinct human life. That is an objective proof. It is living human organic matter with its own distinctive genetic makeup. "It's not a person" that is unobjective.

But you're giving me many reasons to feel that way as a lot of your beliefs do fall into that camp as others have pointed out too. None of us are perfect and there is no moral rule book to look at. I think women should be given the courtesy of being able to choose with what happens to their bodies and not be judged for it. You believe that right is conditional. You can't get out of debating a point by saying 'that doesn't apply to me' because it's not just about you. If you have an opinion on something you should be prepared to argue from all angles.

I am hoping this post has cleared up a lot of what differentiates my views from the typical republican because I really do not enjoy being lumped in with a group of people I fundamentally disagree with on the vast majority of issues. I'll say it again, there is overlap between my beliefs and the beliefs of both the pro-choice and pro-life camps. I don't belong to either and it's quite tiresome to have the pro-lifers against me for being too pro-choice and the pro-choicers being against me for being too pro-life. Is it really that hard to see that a moderate position is available and that you don't have to be on the extremes of the spectrum?

Also if abortion is totally legalized people aren't gonna use it as their primary contraceptive. Those who get abortions don't just decide all willy nilly and I have no idea where that thought came from?

55%... well technically 46% but I've been through this.

When you say things like that it's coming off as if you think women are irresponsible and uncaring, which they aren't?

Not. Purely. A. women's. Issue.
I have not once made a comment specifically singling women out.

Most people who get abortions do so because it's their last choice.

55%

Also, I'm sorry if this is rude, but it's ultimately the woman's decision since the man doesn't have to go through pregnancy.

I have never disputed this. I'll repeat: Ultimately it has to be the choice of the woman as the procedure is conducted on their body, however an involved male partner has every right to be involved in the process of coming to that decision as he had an equal hand in creating the life. The father's opinion should not be invalidated by virtue of his sex, even though the final choice has to be the woman's.

I mean, there is a chance some women will just keep getting abortions just so they cant give birth and have lots of sex, chance which is actually really slim.

Even I doubt there's a boatload of women out there who are on their fourth abortion because they don't like condoms.

I say legalize it because not all times women are ready to be mothers, and if you have seen some of those adopting agencies, they are actually bit of a bad quality. I actually havent seen too many of them, but the ones portraid on TV and movies are not good at all. So not letting a person be born is better than having them probably live in a crappy home or chance of being homeless.

There are systems in place so that they don't have to be mothers if they aren't ready that don't involve killing anything. They just need to be handled better than they currently are. Also, please don't base opinions on real life off of fictional media.

Plus sometimes people get caught up in the moment and forget to use protection. Thats just my thoughts though.

That's exactly the kind of irresponsible behaviour I have a problem with. That's not a defence.

 

[Yue Han]

Irresponsibility is irresponsibility, let's not pretend otherwise. Even in the case of the people who are using contraception, it is common knowledge that no method is 100% effective and you have to acknowledge that there is a certain degree of risk involved.

Better use of resources to improve how governments deal with children without parents/involved parents would deal with that problem. Pretty much every developed nation, and I'd guess many undeveloped ones, have the resources to provide perfectly good lives to children who would otherwise get stuck in a mukty foster system and are misusing them. I can't support the easy ending of life with that as an excuse for it when I know it doesn't have to be that way.

As for "it's not that common". I've dealt with that point already. 54% of the people who get abortions used contraception, that means the remaining 46% don't. Of course, since 9% of that 54% are using the pull-out method it's actually more like 45% are using contraception and 55% are not. It's a lot more common than people seem to want to acknowledge. It might not necessarily be an easy choice, but it's still a choice people are making.

And again you're saying people should be forced to suffer through something as serious as an unwanted pregnancy and bring something unwanted and unloved into the world which is what most people here are having a problem with.

It applies because I'm defending my own view point, not the traditional pro-life camp's.

...and it is still relevant in general to a debate about abortion.

"For you", sorry now who is pushing their opinions onto things?

I'm not sure why you're using a snappy tone here but I believe and have already highlighted I can't have a moral objective truth as much as you can't either so I'm not pushing anything.

I think you are severely mistaking my values to an extent. I don't believe human life is inherently more valuable than other life. The reason killing for food is okay is because it's an exchange of one life of equal value for another life.

But my point is, again, about creating that life to be killed for food. Also I don't see how the animal life in this situation can be seen as of equal value to who will consume it. It was made to be killed, not very equal at all.

By this logic I could go kill my neighbour and as long as I eat them it's ok because it's the exchange of one life of equal value for another life!

I'm no deflecting anything. Fetal matter is a distinct human life. That is an objective proof. It is living human organic matter with its own distinctive genetic makeup. "It's not a person" that is unobjective.

Which is exactly what I said?

I am hoping this post has cleared up a lot of what differentiates my views from the typical republican because I really do not enjoy being lumped in with a group of people I fundamentally disagree with on the vast majority of issues. I'll say it again, there is overlap between my beliefs and the beliefs of both the pro-choice and pro-life camps. I don't belong to either and it's quite tiresome to have the pro-lifers against me for being too pro-choice and the pro-choicers being against me for being too pro-life. Is it really that hard to see that a moderate position is available and that you don't have to be on the extremes of the spectrum?

I don't think anyone is thinking of you that way. What most people that do not agree with you are having a problem with is saying a woman should, in certain circumstances, not have full control over what happens with her body and the contents of it. Maybe you see that as a moderate view depending on circumstances, but others possibly see this taking a choice away from a woman concerning her own body, particularly spoken about emotionally in this way:

Getting an abortion under most circumstances isn't anything like that. It's trading a life to make life easier. There's no equity in that. I'm not giving sympathy and a license to kill to the 55% of people who don't use proper contraception and are then shocked when they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. You don't have the right to take a life because you were irresponsible. You might sway me on cases like Hands', but that would cease to be the case if the resource management issue was resolved and society started providing for those children properly.

as an extremist view in any circumstance.

 

[Corrin]

But what about after the child is born? It is unwanted, it won't have a good life in the foster care system. Every child brought into the world should be by choice, when the mother is ready and able and wanting to care for, like you say, a whole other life.
You can't just bring kids in the world to face a life of hardship that comes with being thrown around by social services. You say "well we need to fix it" but how likely is that to happen? I'm talking about the now, the current issues people are facing. To subject a child to this for your own reasons is cruel.

 

[Hands]

I mean, there is a chance some women will just keep getting abortions just so they cant give birth and have lots of sex, chance which is actually really slim.
I say legalize it because not all times women are ready to be mothers, and if you have seen some of those adopting agencies, they are actually bit of a bad quality. I actually havent seen too many of them, but the ones portraid on TV and movies are not good at all. So not letting a person be born is better than having them probably live in a crappy home or chance of being homeless. Plus sometimes people get caught up in the moment and forget to use protection. Thats just my thoughts though.

Getting an abortion isn't like buying condoms FC. You have to go through a bunch of steps with doctors before doing it. It has heavy effects on the short term health of the woman too. You can't have multiple ones in quick succession and if you have a consistent history of abortions then usually the doctor intervenes over this.

 

[gimmepie]

But what about after the child is born? It is unwanted, it won't have a good life in the foster care system. Every child brought into the world should be by choice, when the mother is ready and able and wanting to care for, like you say, a whole other life.
You can't just bring kids in the world to face a life of hardship that comes with being thrown around by social services. You say "well we need to fix it" but how likely is that to happen? I'm talking about the now, the current issues people are facing. To subject a child to this for your own reasons is cruel.

Universal socialism isn't likely to happen either but I'm sure as hell going to fight for it because I believe it's right. Saying "oh it's unlikely" isn't a reason for me not to defend a stance. A lot of things worth advocating for aren't particularly likely.

Think it's not a parallel? Try and tell me economic disparity between classes isn't a thing.

Places have the resources to give those kids the kind of life they deserve and I can't justify making abortion readily available without a damn good reason when I know that.

 

[Hands]

Universal socialism isn't likely to happen either but I'm sure as hell going to fight for it because I believe it's right. Saying "oh it's unlikely" isn't a reason for me not to defend a stance. A lot of things worth advocating for aren't particularly likely.

Think it's not a parallel? Try and tell me economic disparity between classes isn't a thing.

Places have the resources to give those kids the kind of life they deserve and I can't justify making abortion readily available without a damn good reason when I know that.

Those places also have the resources to look after the millions in poverty but don't.

 

[gimmepie]

Those places also have the resources to look after the millions in poverty but don't.

and I'll always argue against that practice too, as do you.
Are you going to stop just because they don't?

 

[Nah]

re: 55% statistic

I think that it would be better to get the people not using contraception/not having sex responsibly to use contraception/have sex responsibly instead of giving cruel and unusual punishment to the people that do use contraception/have sex responsibly, would it not?

Pro-tip: If he's being a dick about protection, don't have sex with him.

 

[Ho-Oh]

Abortion was only just legalised in my state literally like 48 hours ago.

So my point of view. This is TMI but explains why this issue is so important to me.

Even though I am in a happy living-together (for over 3 years) relationship with my boyfriend and I am on the pill (and my partner never you know what's).

... I very rarely have sex because I am afraid of getting pregnant. I'm not ready to cut off the option that I will never have kids so I just very rarely have sex. Ovulating? Nope. Off pill week? Nope. Take pill more than a few hours late? No sex for at least two weeks. New pack starting? No sex at all for a week and a half.

You know why? Because abortion was illegal. I was so shit scared of having to go to the doctors and plead and say I was mentally ill (anxiety but still... at minimum you need to have more than anxiety to get out of it here), that I'd be a terrible mother... I would literally have to either BEG the doctors here or pay a minimum of $500 (when money isn't great currently) just for a flight to Melbourne to get an abortion. Don't forget how fucking scary it would be to explain why I'm taking a random one day trip to Melbourne.

The fact that a 12 year old here had to get government approval to get an abortion because it wasn't legal... like that's fucked. There's no other word for it. We're in a fucking society that literally only 72 hours ago forced a 12 year old to BEG the fucking government to get an abortion.

Sorry I'm swearing a lot but this issue is one I'm very passionate about... like I mean if I got pregnant and couldn't get an abortion at all I probably would consider ending my life. That's coming from someone who has never been suicidal AT ALL, loves life, literally would be the last person in the entire universe -- but I just couldn't fucking do it. A foreign being in my body that controls it for 9 months and then potentially controls my life for 18 years... no. That might change someday but being 30 in a few years... that's sure as fuck my opinion.

How the fuck can anyone not support everyone being given the right to have an abortion when people like me would literally consider ending it if they were forced to carry a child even if they're the safest person ever? Like how can people sleep at night and still being pro-life knowing that some people that are not able to abort could literally be on the verge of killing themselves because they're forced into this choice with no other safe alternative? It just boggles my mind. Allowing EVERYONE to make the choice for their body is so damn right. Like, would you rather a woman kill herself because she can't abort safely or would you rather let her abort clusters of cells and let her continue HER life?

It's not necessarily having to raise the kid. It's the fact that for nine months you are given a reminder that you either fucked up or that nobody was willing to let you fix a VERY unlucky mistake. That for every single kick in the womb... you cry. Every single ultra sound KILLS you internally. Yeah, you can say there are some exceptions that need to be aborted but it's not that. It's that every single fucking case is so unique. Every woman should be able to make a choice over their body. They have to give up 9 months of their lives carrying it. Nine months where every single moment of the day is a constant reminder of either the shame, fear, worry... like, no. Giving everyone the right to choose what happens to their bodies completely judgement free. Like is the only option for pro-lifers just for the rest of us to never have sex? Because no contraception is fully effective and even if we do everything right and only have sex literally three times a month... there still is that slight chance. We should be able to be given the rights to decide WHAT happens from there out. There shouldn't just be EXCEPTIONS ... like everyone should be given the right to decide what happens to them.

Pro lifers really don't get what it's like to be in the shoes of those who are pregnant and having to go ahead with abortion because having to carry the baby for nine months will literally fuck their brain up to the extent that they may never recover from. Just why the fuck not allow it for everyone? You don't know everyone's case and you can't brand everyone with the same brush. Everyone has a different reason for needing an abortion. Trying to protect the not yet formed unborn babies yet completely disregarding a living human being who has lived for a minimum of 12 years (although hopefully at least 18 in most cases) is so wrong.

If I got pregnant say three weeks ago I would have had to get up the courage... go to the doctor and PLEAD my case. I would literally have to be in tears to show WHY I absolutely needed to abort it. I would have to beg and plead and hope that the doctor is willing to take mercy on me and let me abort. You know how fucking scary that would be for so many people vs actually going to a safe no judgement abortion clinic and being able to go about your business? Can a pro lifer truly say that yes it's great that the law (a few days ago, but for some places it's still illegal) means I have to beg a doctor to take pity on me (and convince them that I would be a mentally deranged mother basically) to let me abort instead of being able to do it so much more dignifyingly?

Like pro-lifers: Newsfact! People are still going to abort whether you like it or not. By not allowing people to access abortion safely in a judgement free zone (and potentially face criminal prosecution) you're just making it harder on the people that are already alive. Like yeah, campaign all you want outside of abortion clinics and try to convince people not to go ahead but by supporting having a law that forces you to beg and plead your case... like that's so fucking upsetting that you can continue on living life happily when people are mentally struggling.

For as long as I live, and for as long as I am given the option to abort - I will fight against those who don't support abortion. A lot of pent up anger from reading all the comments all over social media these last few days. Note: I haven't had an abortion but I have researched it in the off chance that I did require one and these are 100% my feelings based on if I did have to have an abortion three weeks ago (due to the law only JUST changing here).

I'm still going to be careful, fuck yes. But I know at least ONE (fucking TERRIFYING) weight is taken off my shoulders if I did need one. There's a lot of people out there like me. Don't brand everyone with the same brush and assume only extreme cases matter. Every woman is absolutely worth being able to make the right choice for them without judgment and anyone that doesn't feel that way perhaps needs to get a better grip on what empathy is.

 

[Hands]

and I'll always argue against that practice too, as do you.
Are you going to stop just because they don't?

Arguing is all well and good, and of course I won't stop, but there are real world consequences in the meantime. Even though I argue for the abolition of British parliament I still vote Labour because they are going to do the least harm to people who are in a worse position than me.

I can't tell if you replied to my comment about embryos not having sentience until roughly 20 weeks in relation to farm animals outright having sentience but I think it's an important point to consider.

What about people who have contraception fail? They weren't irresponsible, they were unlucky. I've had condoms split. Luckily most of the girls were on the pill. A couple weren't so we took the morning after pill. My sister got unlucky on a drunk night out, clinics and doctors are closed on a sunday. Thankfully I managed to find an over the counter seller of Plan B who didnt require a consultation for it but if we hadnt she would have had to go an extra day, which halfs plan B's real term effectiveness.

It's not a throwaway thing where people bone, then 8 months later decide theyre gonna kill the kid. It's a semi common failure of medication or a slip of mind that leads to either Plan B or a 4-8 week termination.

 

[gimmepie]

Arguing is all well and good, and of course I won't stop, but there are real world consequences in the meantime. Even though I argue for the abolition of British parliament I still vote Labour because they are going to do the least harm to people who are in a worse position than me.

I can't tell if you replied to my comment about embryos not having sentience until roughly 20 weeks in relation to farm animals outright having sentience but I think it's an important point to consider.

I don't even agree with stepping on ants. They also have no sentience.

What about people who have contraception fail? They weren't irresponsible, they were unlucky. I've had condoms split. Luckily most of the girls were on the pill. A couple weren't so we took the morning after pill. My sister got unlucky on a drunk night out, clinics and doctors are closed on a sunday. Thankfully I managed to find an over the counter seller of Plan B who didnt require a consultation for it but if we hadnt she would have had to go an extra day, which halfs plan B's real term effectiveness.

I believe I already said that I could potentially be swayed as far as that goes until such time as the system is handled properly. I won't say it's a practice I agree with, I'll argue against it, but I won't hold it against people either.

It's not a throwaway thing where people bone, then 8 months later decide theyre gonna kill the kid. It's a semi common failure of medication or a slip of mind that leads to either Plan B or a 4-8 week termination.

Apparently for 55% of people it is.

 

[Hands]

Apparently for 55% of people it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm

1.3% of US abortions happen at the point of sentience.

Your own article doesn't cover every patient globally, it's from patients who opted to fill out a survey in America. It's not representative of overall figures. Your source also states the author of the analysis as saying

"Contraceptive methods are highly effective at preventing unintended pregnancies, but no method—and no user—is perfect, Abortion patients should have access to the full range of contraceptive counseling and services to support them in preventing future unintended pregnancies."

Crucially, no method is 100%. Of her numbers, 13% had been on the pill (the usually cited most effective non permanent contraceptive)

I can't find anything from the Guttmacher analysis that mentions pulling out. It says 13% were using the pill and 24% were using condoms. The others could have botched vasectomies, be on the implant or the coil, be on the shot or have their ovaries tied. Some may even be using the femidom still. Condoms and Pills are cited because they are both the most common contraceptives on the market and are also the biggest two cited fail rates in the study.

That means that the 49% you see as irresponsible includes rape victims, domestic abuse victims who have been pushed into getting the abortion by their partners and teens. It also includes people with ectopic pregnancies, risk to life, undeveloped embryos and other health concerns.

So it's not 55% using it as contraception then just callously killing the kid when theyre a sentient baby with thought processes and actual signs of tangible life. It's 51% who's primary cause was a failure either with contraception or the application of contraception.

 

[Corrin]

I'm actually curious as to what you guys think in the case of a transgender person, such as myself.

 

[gimmepie]

Snip

Apologies for the short reply here but I'm a shitload of pain right now so I don't feel much like researching for an essay.

re: 1.3% - I don't recall mentioning sentience as a factor in my opinion? If I did bring it up that was foolish of me because it's really a very small part in my perspective.

re: locality - Fair point. I'll dig up some sources from other countries later. I will say though that I doubt there's that much variation in typical western countries like the US, Canada, England, Australia etc.

Breaking format now because I'm a rebel. I'll have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure it mentions an increase from 7% to 9% of people using the pull out method in some brackets about half way through.

As far as the 49% goes, for the sake of fairness in this debate (as far as my stance is concerned anyway) we'd probably have to exclude rape victims from both them and the count of people who did use protection as I'm not against them having abortions if they need to. Very few pregnancies are ectopic or involve life threatening situations and being a teen isn't an excuse for being a moron and having unprotected sex when you aren't ready to be a parent. I'll have to get back to you on statistics regarding domestic violence but there is still a sizeable percentage here that were simply irresponsible.

@Raven - I would suggest that it's probably not a very common occurrence. As far as I'm concerned though, if a transgender person voluntarily has sex then the same standards should apply to them as anyone else and vice versa. That being said, on account of he rarity I've not given it as much thought so I'll think on it some and see if my position changes any.

 

[Kai]

I'm actually curious as to what you guys think in the case of a transgender person, such as myself.

A person's biological sex isn't dictated by their gender identification so the later is irrelevant.

being a teen isn't an excuse for being a moron and having unprotected sex when you aren't ready to be a parent.

A fact so many teenagers try to ignore. A baby, abortion, or a life altering STD/STI usually brings the stubborn ones back to their senses.

 

[Hands]

Apologies for the short reply here but I'm a shitload of pain right now so I don't feel much like researching for an essay.

That's fine, I just think it's important that the facts are present in regard to this topic.

re: 1.3% - I don't recall mentioning sentience as a factor in my opinion? If I did bring it up that was foolish of me because it's really a very small part in my perspective.

I was referring to

The majority of animals aren't sentient and I think if they are treated as humanely as possible it's fine. That's a lot better than ending a human life as a matter of convenience.

in which you seem to suggest that animals are apparently not sentient and that this is a mitigating factor in eating them.

re: locality - Fair point. I'll dig up some sources from other countries later. I will say though that I doubt there's that much variation in typical western countries like the US, Canada, England, Australia etc.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...e/570040/Updated_Abortion_Statistics_2015.pdf

Britain doesn't ask a reason, although the forms submitted will often cite blanket categories. Most interesting is the high number of non Brits who came here for Abortions and that for repeat abortions it seems to focus around minority groups more than indigenous Brits. I assume for a bulk of these woman this is down to lesser sex education or access to contraceptives in their birth nations. The NHS will treat anyone, oftentimes even those in the country illegally, because that's part of their original mission.

Breaking format now because I'm a rebel. I'll have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure it mentions an increase from 7% to 9% of people using the pull out method in some brackets about half way through.

I have been back through the article, it is mentioned (though it isnt part of the contraceptive statistic)

The share of abortion patients relying on condoms decreased between 2000 and 2014 (from 28% to 24%), and there was a small but significant increase in the share of patients who relied on withdrawal (from 7% in 2000 to 9% in 2014). Use of long-acting reversible contraceptive (LARC) methods among abortion patients increased from 0.1% in 2000 to 1% in 2014. Jones notes that as more and more U.S. women rely on these methods, a larger number of individuals will experience method failure. It is also possible that some abortion patients became pregnant shortly after they stopped using LARCs or other contraceptive methods.

People using long term contraception increased. I know people who use the pill and pull out (many men do not outright finish in their partners even if she is on the pill) It's not indicative of anything other than that a small percentage of people reported pulling out, either with the woman on contraception or not.

As far as the 49% goes, for the sake of fairness in this debate (as far as my stance is concerned anyway) we'd probably have to exclude rape victims from both them and the count of people who did use protection as I'm not against them having abortions if they need to.

We should probably remove people who were pressured into having sex, people who were in domestic violence situations and people who were taken advantage of when inhibited as well.

Very few pregnancies are ectopic or involve life threatening situations

In 2015, 54% of women undergoing abortions had one or more previous pregnancies that
resulted in a live or stillbirth, up from 47% in 2005 (See Table 3a.vii). 19% of women had a
previous pregnancy resulting in a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy, up from 14% in 2005.
(Table 3a.viii)

I mean, over half of UK Abortions in 2015 were carried out on women who had miscarried, had ectopic pregnancies or had a stillborn child or had a child already which factored into the choice. 19% had an Ectopic pregnancy or miscarried so it's pretty common where abortion is concerned.

and being a teen isn't an excuse for being a moron and having unprotected sex when you aren't ready to be a parent

so what do you say to 12 year olds who were groomed? Or 13 year olds who were pushed into it by a boy at school? They're kids. If you honestly think it's at all a good idea to either push their young bodies through pregnancy or leave a baby in their care when they're barely out of nappies themselves themselves then I don't know what to tell you.

there is still a sizeable percentage here that were simply irresponsible.

It isn't 55% though is it? It isn't even remotely close to 55%.