Should Nidoran have become one Pokemon?

[Mackened]

We all know that Pokemon never goes back on decisions regarding its Pokedex, but does anyone think that it would have been sensible from Gen 3 onwards to have made Nidoran an individual Pokemon? Or if screwing up the numbers is an issue, at the very least changed the name of one of the genders? It just seems so silly that there's Pokemon made pre-genders that are stuck with their separate beginning forms.
Oh well, Game Freak don't like going back and good for them I say.

 

[Candy]

Well back in the day there were no such things as gender differences, gender-specific evolutions, and even gender itself. They had to make them into 2 separate Pokemon so their evolution lines won't clash back then.

They did have the opportunity back at Gen 3 when backwards compatibility wasn't available yet. But that means screwing up with the Pokedex order. Plus, it won't be the original 151 Pokemon anymore.

One thing that I do know GF needs to change is Nidorina and Nidoqueen's inability to breed. It's probably thanks to the whole separation between the male and the female Nidoran lines, but it still doesn't make sense.

 

[Thursday]

I actually like the fact that they're 2 different Pokemon. Both of them have different stats and (some) attacks. I think it would be weird to merge them in the Pokedex since I've always considered them 2 different Pokemon, even though it's only a difference in gender.

 

[mew_nani]

Nidoran was the first example of sexual dimorphism in Pokemon, and it was the first Pokemon to actually have different stats and movesets depending on gender. It's still the only Pokemon to do this: even Meowstic, which has separate sprites and moveset data for each gender, still evolves from a Pokemon with no stat or sprite differences between genders. I wish there were other Pokemon that were like this, as most of the sexual dimorphism in Pokemon are just minor palette changes, with next to no actual difference between being male and being female.

As for them being fused into just one species, I'm not sure it's possible. Meowstic, Froslass, Gallade and Pyroar each are registered as separate Pokemon in the games, and if they can't fuse them into one Pokemon with their opposite-gendered counterparts, there's no way they could do it with Nidoran.

 

[CoffeeDrink]

Going by numbers, it might not be the best of ideas, but considering the entire line is broken and has yet to be fixed I consider any update to these Pokémon a small victory. Nidoqueen can't breed and that isn't acceptable to me. Along with her shiny form. The colors speak for themselves. . . So yes, I suppose it's possible to merge them while fudging numbers, but other than what we have now, we have to live with it.

 

[Brendino]

If they had decided to go back at some point and merge both the Nidorans into one Pokedex number, then I would've been fine if they did that to Nidorino/Nidorina and Nidoqueen/Nidoking as well. I mean, we've already got female Seaking and Slowking, so female Nidoking shouldn't have been much of a problem.

...at least, that's what I think to myself, but female Nidorino and Nidoking would've really screwed things up, considering the different movesets, references in Pokemon media outside the games, the whole Pokedex, etc. If Pokemon hadn't become the global phenomenon that it was as early as it did, then I might have been okay with the Nidoran merge starting in Gen 2, but I think it was already too late to fix it before anyone realized it was a problem.

 

[Lycanthropy]

In my opinion, the different stats and moves make Nidoran♂ and Nidoran♀ as much different Pokémon as Oddish and Bellsprout.
I actually think they should have split Meowstic into two different Pokémon too.

 

[Dracowyn]

I think it's for the better that they didn't get merged.

Besides, I thought the gen 2 and gen 3 games weren't programmed to be able to have gender differences, unlike gen 4. So that'd be really late to merge them in one.

 

[bobandbill]

I think it's for the better that they didn't get merged.

Besides, I thought the gen 2 and gen 3 games weren't programmed to be able to have gender differences, unlike gen 4. So that'd be really late to merge them in one.

Well, they could have, but they only decided to throw in stuff like the sprite differences in gen 4. (A number of these weren't very noticeable, but whatever).

I do agree that it makes sense they didn't get merged; they are more distinct than say male and female Wobbuffet which look different (and by that, I mean have lipstick from... somewhere) - their stats and natural movepool are different, and hence how they fight as well.

If anything, we should ask why the Meowstic line are any different by not being split up, or say Gardevoir/Gallade. They're from the same 'family' after all... but then the difference is their base form is at least identical, boy or girl. So they are consistent with those cases in the Dex, I suppose, and it would be too much of a hassle to go back and change the dex numbers. Changing typing is enough of a retcon, even if you explain it away with multiple worlds.

 

[Cerberus87]

If anything, we should ask why the Meowstic line are any different by not being split up, or say Gardevoir/Gallade. They're from the same 'family' after all... but then the difference is their base form is at least identical, boy or girl. So they are consistent with those cases in the Dex, I suppose, and it would be too much of a hassle to go back and change the dex numbers. Changing typing is enough of a retcon, even if you explain it away with multiple worlds.

Meowstic is much different from Nidoran. Meowstic evolves from the same Pokémon, with the same method, while Nidoran is already different species from the start. Also, Meowstic male and female have the same stats, typing, abilties and egg, TM and tutor moves, with only HAs being different between then. Nidoran have different stats, ability and learnset between male and female, so they can't be the same species.

Meowstick is also distinct from Gallade/Gardevoir, because both genders of Espurr evolve into Meowstic the same way (at L25). Gallade has a different evolution method from Gardevoir, which is why it turns into a different Pokémon. Male Kirlia when it reaches L30 will evolve into Gardevoir, not Gallade. Gallade and Gardevoir are more akin to the Nidorans, although there's no split between genders up to Kirlia level, while Nidoran already starts as different species.

Evolution in Pokémon is always divergent so far, never convergent, and it makes little sense for GF to introduce a set of Pokémon that evolve into the same creature (which would be convergent evolution in Pokémon sense, not scientific), because the grown up form is always more attractive for battling, which is a Pokémon's main utility. So differences will most likely exist in the grown up forms, never in the child ones, unless they're different species (like Nidoran).

Of course, there's a precedent that makes Meowstic weird. Charmander and Cyndaquil share the same stats, typing and ability, too. However, unlike Meowstic, their egg, TM and tutor moves are completely different, as well as their HAs. And Charmander evolves into Charizard, which is different type from Typhlosion.

 

[destinedjagold]

I agree that these two Nidorans should only occupy one Pokédex number. That way, GF could have room in the Kanto dex list for a Kangaskhan pre-evolution. ^^

 

[Cerberus87]

I agree that these two Nidorans should only occupy one Pokédex number. That way, GF could have room in the Kanto dex list for a Kangaskhan pre-evolution. ^^

But Pokédex number is determined by species. Nidoran male and female are not, and cannot be considered a single species, for the reasons I've explained in my earlier post.

 

[bobandbill]

Meowstic is much different from Nidoran. Meowstic evolves from the same Pokémon, with the same method, while Nidoran is already different species from the start. Also, Meowstic male and female have the same stats, typing, abilties and egg, TM and tutor moves, with only HAs being different between then. Nidoran have different stats, ability and learnset between male and female, so they can't be the same species.

I... know, I said as much (just in less words) in that very quote - Meowstic are different to Nidoran in what they evolve from. =p

Of course, there's a precedent that makes Meowstic weird. Charmander and Cyndaquil share the same stats, typing and ability, too. However, unlike Meowstic, their egg, TM and tutor moves are completely different, as well as their HAs. And Charmander evolves into Charizard, which is different type from Typhlosion.

And level up moves too are different, and body shape, pokedex facts, etc are completely different... They're not at all the same, and I don't get how that makes Meowstic weird.

 

[Megan]

I think both Nidoran lines being separate makes as much sense as Scizor's Dex entry not directly following after Scyther's in the National Dex (or every other pre-/evolution from later gens not being in line with their pre-/evolution). It's just for the sake of being consistent with older games (in that case: with generation 1).

As for Nidorina/Nidoqueen not being able to breed: I don't think it's some kind of programming oversight, considering that's been there since gen 2. I suppose it's one of the few secrets that GF ever managed to keep a secret. {XD}

 

[Pendraflare]

Nah, one Pokémon with stats that lean towards the Attack and one for the HP and Defense wouldn't be something they could roll up into one. Although given we have a lot of early game Pokémon that are three stage with similar stats, they possibly could have done something like making one, although I don't recall how that would turn out.

 

[CoffeeDrink]

I've been reading a lot about the stat differences and the move set differences becoming an issue if they were ever merged. I don't see why. We have the technology these days to have the games differentiate between the two. They'd maintain their differences in stats and moves, but it'd be a further delving into male/female differences. Not too much of a stretch, that.

Let's review: merged Pokémon -> different stats depending on m/f. If male, higher attack etc. Just think of it like a more complicated Wurmple evo-line if wurmple had two different base stats depending on being male or female. Shoot, what am I trying to say. . . think of Gastrodon! One is blue and another is pink, right? Following me here? Now, just give the pink and blue Gastrodons different base stats. There. I think that makes sense. . . a little at least.

 

[Venia Silente]

Of course GF could get to fix that and make the Nidorans a single 'dex number, but down the line there's not much a need for it. There's been no real technological (read: programming) difficulty against it since at least Generation 4, probably even G3 when Formes as links to data indexes were first introduced, if I'm not mistaken.

But GF are not the kind of people to fix issues, because that adds no selling point in their eyes. Not enough hair, not enough Megas. For example the extended character limit from G6 could have been put to much better use. "Cophagrigus" instead of "Cofagrigus" (and that way we avoid lelridiculousban)? Nope. "Feraligator" and "Victreebell"? Nope either. The weird spacing or lack thereof in the names of Pokéball names or other items in the same families? Well, it's 2015 but at least we are not returning to the times of "PRZCureBerry".

Nidorans? Nidoqueen/rina breeding? They laugh at our suffering and we still throw our wallets at them. Purisu andestandu.

But Pokédex number is determined by species. Nidoran male and female are not, and cannot be considered a single species, for the reasons I've explained in my earlier post.

(Emphasis mine)

There's nothing on that post that excludes Nidoran from being able to be a single species. Nidoran are set as different "species" (what you are actually calling 'dex numbers) simply because of the anthropic principle - they were made that way back then. Had they have been made in Gen3 onwards, they could have shared a Pokédex dex number and simply have differed in the data index number - like, you know, any Pokémon with Formes. But it simply wasn't done (probably wasn't even possible) back then.

Stuff like stats and moveset don't determine species either, though they are far more relevant as a factor than the 'dex number, because the data to make stats and movesets different if it is done has to go somewhere - still once you get into the data structure for G4 Pokémon that bump is out. So comparing Charmander and Cyndaquil, while fun (and prompting of... weird entertaining mental images) does not really provide any insight. It's just as simple as saying one is a lizard(thing) and the other is a mustelid(thing).


There's also no cause-to-effect relation between Pokédex number and species, as any and all branched evos and cross-generation evos show. Heck, there's not even a direct relation between Pokédex number and data index, and that would be the best indicator we would have from a game design perspective.

 

[Cerberus87]

(Emphasis mine)

There's nothing on that post that excludes Nidoran from being able to be a single species. Nidoran are set as different "species" (what you are actually calling 'dex numbers) simply because of the anthropic principle - they were made that way back then. Had they have been made in Gen3 onwards, they could have shared a Pokédex dex number and simply have differed in the data index number - like, you know, any Pokémon with Formes. But it simply wasn't done (probably wasn't even possible) back then.

Stuff like stats and moveset don't determine species either, though they are far more relevant as a factor than the 'dex number, because the data to make stats and movesets different if it is done has to go somewhere - still once you get into the data structure for G4 Pokémon that bump is out. So comparing Charmander and Cyndaquil, while fun (and prompting of... weird entertaining mental images) does not really provide any insight. It's just as simple as saying one is a lizard(thing) and the other is a mustelid(thing).


There's also no cause-to-effect relation between Pokédex number and species, as any and all branched evos and cross-generation evos show. Heck, there's not even a direct relation between Pokédex number and data index, and that would be the best indicator we would have from a game design perspective.

Sexual dimorphism in Pokémon isn't related to formes, and variations in gender aren't considered formes. In fact, I think Nidoran is the reason why we haven't yet seen gender-related formes. Even differences as drastic as in Jellicent aren't considered different formes. And, of course, Jellicent's sexual dimorphism is purely cosmetic.

How can you ignore the importance of stats and movesets when it's difficult to even recall an instance where there are matching stats and movesets between different species? Regardless of your opinion and of "ifs and buts" concerning technological difficulties in the past, the Nidorans have several characteristics that merit them being considered different species, unlike Meowstic. They even have benefitted from being different species, as they don't have the same egg move list, and that's since 2nd gen, which may indicate GF turned a technical limitation into a canonical advantage. If they were created today, GF could've possibly worked out a way to make them same species, but I work with what we were given, and there's abundant evidence to treat Nidoran male and female as different, albeit closely related, species. Everything between them, except for their abilities and typing, is different. The definitive difference is in their egg moves. If they were the same species, they would have the same egg moves.

 

[Venia Silente]

Formes

Of course their difference is not related to Formes. Merely said that Formes, as a means to distinguish species by traits other than Pokédex number, have been available since that far ago, and that from a technological standpoint that means a way to distinguish Nidos was available that far ago.

How can you ignore the importance of stats and movesets

I'm not ignoring it. I'm merely saying it's not a direct factor. You can not map stats to a given Pokémon species uniquely, only (as far as I know) to a given data index. Such feature simply hasn't been used beyond a handful of cases.

Egg groups as a "definitive" difference

Er what? Both Nidorans are in the Monster and Field egg groups, so regarding the base morph that does not really open up to anything. The position of Nidorina and Nidoqueen within the "Undiscovered" group aka "Can't Breed" can easily be attributable to a bug, as many things back then. And how can they "benefit" from the Egg group difference? I can't breed my Nidorans unless they stag in the kitten stage. I don't see any possible way how that could be beneficial, and I can't see any practical benefit past that.

At most it could have been worked with to do something productive, perhaps an Event thing or something, but so far it hasn't even reached anything close to that. So I don't see any a "canonical advantage", let alone an intentional one.

(I'm personally of the theory that the Undiscovered egg group assignment was for Nidoking instead of Nidorina, and that they were intended to not be breedable, which from a game design and lore / worldbuilding perspective would at least make some sense)

 

[KittiOcelotti]

No, because it spoil the 150 kanto pokemon. But they should have given female nidoran another name so it doesnt get confuse with the male one.