Sun/Moon signal the sad death of Pokémon as we know it

[mew_nani]

Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

The GCN games to be fair did add some things to the table like Shadow Pokemon and being more mature than other games as well as having a wild west motif. I personally would love Shadow Pokemon to return but eh.

Though what do spinoffs have to do with Pokemon games basically reusing the same general structure over and over? You don't even need to play any spinoffs to see how things work. In Gen I it was revolutionary. Go catch Pokemon! Fill a Pokedex! Get Gym badges! Beat an evil team! Become the champion! Gen II did the exact same thing, with the added bonus of getting 8 more badges and exploring Kanto again so it was just fine. Gen III... same exact thing as Gen I except in Emerald you fought two evil teams instead of one and got access to the Battle Frontier, and in Firered asnd Leafgreen you went to the Sevii Islands and wrecked Team Rocket and found precious stones. Gen IV was also like Gen III except you got to go to the Torn World and got access a Battle Frontier that was connected to a bigger island where you could beat up Team Galactic again. Gen V was like Gen I, except we got PWT and the story was actually very good and important and we got new places to explore, and Gen VI was just a half-baked version of Gen I and III with no Battle Frontier and with a convoluted timeline plot involving Mega Evolution. The only thing special about it was the lore.

Do you see a pattern here? All of the main games followed the exact same structure: fill a Pokedex, get badges, beat an evil team, save the world, become Champion. Maybe the places you can go are different, maybe the evil team is different, maybe the Pokemon you can catch are different, but in the end you're doing the same things over and over again. The only generations that shook up this formula were Gen II for adding a second quest and Gen V for having the main story front and center. Is it any wonder why people are getting bored? Playing through a Pokemon game the first time is an amazing experience, but after so many repeats of the same thing it gets a bit stale. Gen VI didn't help things by having an underdeveloped region, a poor man's version of Team Galactic, a tacked on aesop about resorce scarcity that didn't belong, too much handholding, and shoehorning in a feature without fully explaining what it is or exploring the implications of this feature (Mega Evolution, if anyone's curious.)

 

[Z25]

Alright I've just got to comment on how ridiculous this is.

The series is changing after 20 yrs so it's not the same old thing?

Whoa it's like you don't want the interest to increase. Switching the formula up a bit was a brilliant move. It brought plenty of people in or back. The game's are still the same. Trials are gyms with other elements of the games adding in so they aren't boring and actually fun. And gyms already were your typical rpg boss, they just add a puzzle to it.

Next, does the timeline really matter at this point? No one cares at all, and it's a jumbled mess as is. The old games being obsolete shouldn't surprise you. The games are meant to do better and better then past entries. It's not like your gameboy games are playable physically on the 3ds. It's been 10 yrs since DP, the series wanted to better itself. Timeline means absolutely nothing and shouldn't be mentioned here.

Next:

Alolan forms are OP, better forms?


Really.....

We know nothing of any of their stats yet, their competitive standing, or if they are even good. Also every Alolan form outside of Raichu has a X4 weakness to something so far. They'll be decimated by that type, essentially nerfing them.

Now:

Megas, again the community brought this upon themselves. With all the hate over the overpoweredness of megas, Pokemon took the best action they could. Every single team at the VGC was the same exact team! No one liked that, and wanted diversity. Also megas were the big gen 6 focus, sun and moon's is Z moves. Which you won't see new ones in gen 8. So get used to new features being introduced and show off for one gen. It's what they do to make new battling styles and experiences for players.


Lastly the series is ever changing and always will be. It wants to stay fresh and not wear it's gimmicks out. All of these complaints you have were done to make the gameplay new and exciting for players and to brighten their play experience. They'll continue to find ways to please fans and offer awesome new content. Consistency is never a thing outside of new features, so you should get used to it if your going to be playing future games, as they need to keep switching up the games to make them better overall.

 

[clbgolden]

Gen VI didn't help things by having an underdeveloped region, a poor man's version of Team Galactic, a tacked on aesop about resorce scarcity that didn't belong, too much handholding, and shoehorning in a feature without fully explaining what it is or exploring the implications of this feature (Mega Evolution, if anyone's curious.)

... I don't recall that part from XY.

 

[mew_nani]

... I don't recall that part from XY.

It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

 

[clbgolden]

It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

Eh... The theme itself seems to be very subtle.

However, looking at some of Lysandre's dialogue you are right about Flare complaining about the "lack of resources". This probably could've been executed better if they gave Lysandre a better backstory (but then again most if not all of the evil team leaders suffer from that)...

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

It's subtle but it's there, and it essentially revolves around some people having more stuff than others. The owner of Parfum Palace is looked down upon by Shauna because he inherited a giant palace and makes you pay a small fee to get in, while the lord who once owned Shabboneau Castle in Camphrier Town was thought of as a hero for giving away his wealth. Lysandre in particular grew to hate humans and think of them as greedy because he apparently helped some people in the past who took advantage of him, and he wished to end the world and kill all the humans because he believes there simply aren't enough resources for every human and in their zeal to acquire things humans are fighting amongst themselves and tarnishing the world, and to make it pretty again they all have to die except for him and the rest of Team Flare. He's treated sympathetically by Sycamore.

In a world where food literally grows from Pokemon and humans and nature seem to get along just fine I don't even know why they felt the need to shove in a complex issue with multiple causes and distill it to "humans are greedy and won't share their things."

And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

 

[clbgolden]

And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

I wouldn't really say wiping everyone (except Flare) off the face of the Earth is the most orthodox way of "saving the world".

 

[destinedjagold]

About the Megavolutions being banned in the upcoming VGC, methinks the reason for that is to give the Alolan 'dex 'mons a chance to shine. Iirc, the only 'mons that can be used in VGC when XY were released were only those caught/bred/received in XY. So now, a new generation is rolling out so they're simply redoing what they did with VGC when XY came out; they're giving Gen7's Alolan 'dex a chance, wherein Z-Moves are the focus rather than Megavolutions.

Also, methinks there won't be any new megavolutions in Gen7 hence why they're banned. Meh~

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

I wouldn't really say wiping everyone (except Flare) off the face of the Earth is the most orthodox way of "saving the world".

But it is for our world, since we've pretty much used up almost every resources and are close to turning our planet into Mars 2.0, and the Earth will heal itself if we wiped ourselves off the planet, which Lysandre was doing.

 

[clbgolden]

But it is for our world, since we've pretty much used up almost every resources and are close to turning our planet into Mars 2.0, and the Earth will heal itself if we wiped ourselves off the planet, which Lysandre was doing.

I'm pretty sure a giant laser beam that would probably be shot over 6,000 miles from the surface and then crash back down would do more harm than good to the planet.

 

[Z25]

The whole humans are greedy plot was done better in the anime. Lysandre tells Ash and Alain how years ago Team Flare were good guys. They were a charity organization with all their current admins and scientists. They'd go around to towns deliver packages of good the town didn't have or needed.

This helped out people greatly, but overtime they began getting greedy asking for more and getting angry by not being given all they wanted. This upset Lysandre and he developed the idea that the world was done for if he didn't wipe out the people and cleanse the world of the humans who kept demanding so much from it.

In a way, he has a semi noble goal, but it's done in a very psychotic way which is why he's "evil".


The dealing with of real world issues was a interesting change for the series to take. It doesn't make the franchise start to crash and burn, but gives it a more realistic point of view, which when written the right way helps make the games be really well. Like the Black and White games started this trend with, and current they are viewed as the best games.

It helps show this an be a step in the right direction if done correctly.

 

[Sopheria]

I know how you feel, but you really have to consider that every new generation has introduced changes and each time there are always people who felt that said changes signaled "the death of Pokémon" (look at the number of people who still to this day say that the original 151 are the only "real" Pokémon). But those things have all become a part of what we know and love as Pokémon because people were willing to give it a chance and enjoy it for what it is. The same thing will happen here (and then by 8th gen people will be so used to having regional variants that not having them will be considered "not Pokémon enough" :P )

 

[WingsofBliss]

The tagine for the entire franchise is "gotta catch 'em all", so it's not like the Gyms and E4 were the only true things that made Pokémon what it is. Like what everyone has said, the trial captains and kahunas are essentially the same thing with a fresh coat of paint. What I think is really cool about it is the little tasks and missions you'll have to complete in the trials.

Other than that, i think everything looks terrific so far, and this is the most hyped I've ever been forr a Pokemon game in a long time. I just don't see how somebody could hate these games when they aren't even out yet.

 

[Z25]

The tagine for the entire franchise is "gotta catch 'em all", so it's not like the Gyms and E4 were the only true things that made Pokémon what it is. Like what everyone has said, the trial captains and kahunas are essentially the same thing with a fresh coat of paint. What I think is really cool about it is the little tasks and missions you'll have to complete in the trials.

Other than that, i think everything looks terrific so far, and this is the most hyped I've ever been forr a Pokemon game in a long time. I just don't see how somebody could hate these games when they aren't even out yet.

Actually a good point to mention.

The tagline is now Train On! Proof that they want to make the games more fresh and that their goal is to switch up the franchise a bit now.

 

[mew_nani]

And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

Saving the world... by destroying the world. I can't say I'm that surprised given Team Aqua was also planning to expand the habitat of aquatic Pokemon by introducing an eternal flood that would completely shut down the underwater currents currently sustaining most oceanic life on Earth, dooming them all to a slow and drawn out demise, and Team Magma's little idea to cause an eternal drought to expand the landmasses of the world for terrestrial mons would also wreck the climate of the world in a similar fashion as well horribly alter global weather patterns. Don't you just love ecoterrorists?

At least Team Plasma did the whole Pokemon abuse schtick right, and Team Galactic was.... wait what were they again? An energy company? I'm never understand how they maintained that front with their spikey buildings and bowl cuts and petty theft.

Silly mode off, Pokemon only really started hammering real life issues in Gen V. Team Rocket always was the de facto mafia, Team Magma and Team Aqua were just a bunch of cooks doing crazy crap and summoning eldritch creatures they couldn't control, and Team Galactic were known more for having strange fashion sense than for endorsing any real life cause. Team Plasma was where it all started, and to their credit they brought up an issue that is genuinely a big concern: Pokemon Abuse. Team Flare though tried to mix being silly with deliberate world destruction and it simply doesn't work. They're their own antethesis: they're trying to blow the world up because people like them specifically are causing problems, and instead of being treated seriously as the psychopaths they actually were they were treated sympathetically instead. I still maintain AZ should have been the main villain instead. It would have worked so much better.

Also, I never thought I'd see the day where the anime actually fleshes out the main villains of a Pokemon game better than the games do on that magnitude. Must be Gen I all over again.

 

[WingsofBliss]

Actually a good point to mention.

The tagline is now Train On! Proof that they want to make the games more fresh and that their goal is to switch up the franchise a bit now.

I thought that was the tagline for the 20th Anniversary specifically, not the actual franchise itself.

Saving the world... by destroying the world. I can't say I'm that surprised given Team Aqua was also planning to expand the habitat of aquatic Pokemon by introducing an eternal flood that would completely shut down the underwater currents currently sustaining most oceanic life on Earth, dooming them all to a slow and drawn out demise, and Team Magma's little idea to cause an eternal drought to expand the landmasses of the world for terrestrial mons would also wreck the climate of the world in a similar fashion as well horribly alter global weather patterns. Don't you just love ecoterrorists?

At least Team Plasma did the whole Pokemon abuse schtick right, and Team Galactic was.... wait what were they again? An energy company? I'm never understand how they maintained that front with their spikey buildings and bowl cuts and petty theft.

Silly mode off, Pokemon only really started hammering real life issues in Gen V. Team Rocket always was the de facto mafia, Team Magma and Team Aqua were just a bunch of cooks doing crazy crap and summoning eldritch creatures they couldn't control, and Team Galactic were known more for having strange fashion sense than for endorsing any real life cause. Team Plasma was where it all started, and to their credit they brought up an issue that is genuinely a big concern: Pokemon Abuse. Team Flare though tried to mix being silly with deliberate world destruction and it simply doesn't work. They're their own antethesis: they're trying to blow the world up because people like them specifically are causing problems, and instead of being treated seriously as the psychopaths they actually were they were treated sympathetically instead. I still maintain AZ should have been the main villain instead. It would have worked so much better.

Also, I never thought I'd see the day where the anime actually fleshes out the main villains of a Pokemon game better than the games do on that magnitude. Must be Gen I all over again.

While the deeper storylines in these games started with Gen 5, I think the characterization of NPC's started with Gen 4. Cyrus was given a motive and a little bit of backstory for his actions; his parents didn't really care about him and were not pleased with him no matter how hard he worked in his studies growing up. There's also the Celebi event we got in HGSS, that showed us a bit of backstory of Silver and Giovanni, and also explained why Silver was the way he is.

 

[Nah]

The whole humans are greedy plot was done better in the anime. Lysandre tells Ash and Alain how years ago Team Flare were good guys. They were a charity organization with all their current admins and scientists. They'd go around to towns deliver packages of good the town didn't have or needed.

This helped out people greatly, but overtime they began getting greedy asking for more and getting angry by not being given all they wanted. This upset Lysandre and he developed the idea that the world was done for if he didn't wipe out the people and cleanse the world of the humans who kept demanding so much from it.

fuckin' shit the one time the anime does something better than the games.....-_-


Anyway to keep this on topic I will just say that I'm going to remain very neutral towards Sun and Moon until I actually get the chance to play them. I have gotten overhyped and then later disappointed in games far too many times to let myself do that anymore. The thing to keep in mind is that what we get through trailers and such is really just a mere fraction of the games. We don't know everything about anything that's been revealed so far. We don't know what else is in these games or how things can go, or how it all interacts together in the game, or even how it feels to directly play with these things. Things you may have liked/hated during pre-release may later turn into things you hate/like post-release. We just don't know, as much as people would like to claim that they know that these games will be good or bad. It is indeed silly to think the games will be horrible and kill the franchise based on what little we know, but for that very same reason it's equally silly to think that these games will be amazeballs and revitalize the franchise.


I do hope that the games will turn out amazing, but hope don't change reality folks. Nevermind that I'm still afraid that Game Freak may treat Sun/Moon the same way they do with almost every pair of a new generation.

 

[Iceshadow3317]

There are two kinds of people when it comes to the world. People who can adapt to new ways. Or people who can't stand change. It is like this with every single thing in the world.

People wanted change, but when we get it, people cry about it. Complain about it. And can't stand the fact that it is changing. Before they even give the changes a chance.

Pokemon isn't dying at all. It is still the top seller. It is still possibly the biggest franchise in the world when it comes to types of medias. Pokemon is a god to a lot of things. Sun and Moon will probably have some of the most sold copies ever.

You either accept change or don't. Change will always win. So you have to adapt. I for one think these will be some of the best games ever. Because it is fresh. Because it is new things. Because it will probably focus more on story which the games desperately need after Unova Games.

And I am going to guess the people who are really against this are people from the first generation who have not really liked anything since the originals because you can't be happy for how long pokemon has lasted as a whole and are stuck in the past because of useless, overactive nostalgia.

 

[Caaethil]

And yet it's this reason why Lysandre is secretly the hero that the world of Pokémon needs, and the existence of Team Skull, and possibly the Aether Foundation, were the result of you, the player, stopping Lysandre's plan to saving the world. Pokémon has been tackling issues irl since Ruby and Sapphire, which is how you can make the series "mature" without the need of appealing to juvenile delinquents.

Wait, are you endorsing saving the world through mass genocide? Because that's a bit messed up. Please tell me I'm missing some context here. >.<

 

[Z25]

I thought that was the tagline for the 20th Anniversary specifically, not the actual franchise itself.



While the deeper storylines in these games started with Gen 5, I think the characterization of NPC's started with Gen 4. Cyrus was given a motive and a little bit of backstory for his actions; his parents didn't really care about him and were not pleased with him no matter how hard he worked in his studies growing up. There's also the Celebi event we got in HGSS, that showed us a bit of backstory of Silver and Giovanni, and also explained why Silver was the way he is.

I think it's suppose to be for the series over all now. I could be wrong, but I think it was created already the anniversary. They may not have been clear on it.

****in' **** the one time the anime does something better than the games.....-_-


Anyway to keep this on topic I will just say that I'm going to remain very neutral towards Sun and Moon until I actually get the chance to play them. I have gotten overhyped and then later disappointed in games far too many times to let myself do that anymore. The thing to keep in mind is that what we get through trailers and such is really just a mere fraction of the games. We don't know everything about anything that's been revealed so far. We don't know what else is in these games or how things can go, or how it all interacts together in the game, or even how it feels to directly play with these things. Things you may have liked/hated during pre-release may later turn into things you hate/like post-release. We just don't know, as much as people would like to claim that they know that these games will be good or bad. It is indeed silly to think the games will be horrible and kill the franchise based on what little we know, but for that very same reason it's equally silly to think that these games will be amazeballs and revitalize the franchise.


I do hope that the games will turn out amazing, but hope don't change reality folks. Nevermind that I'm still afraid that Game Freak may treat Sun/Moon the same way they do with almost every pair of a new generation.

X and Y's anime portrayed the characters really well. Which was nice with how under developed the games had them.