Sun/Moon signal the sad death of Pokémon as we know it

[Cerberus87]

There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.

For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements.

Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless.

Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another.

And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why.

My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

 

[clbgolden]

So, changing up the formula just a little bit and adding creative new additions to the games mean Pokémon is dying?

... Seriously?

Also, the Mega Evolution timeline doesn't make the old games "useless". Presumably, all the stuff that happened then still happened in the Mega timeline.

 

[mew_nani]

....Huh? ~_~

There's been a split in the Pokemon timeline much further back than Gen VI: all the way back in Gen III the Pokemon timeline was split into two branches when Firered and Leafgreen came out and retconed Gen I. There's three different timelines; one that includes the games from Gen I and II, one that includes Gen III, IV, and V, and one that includes Gen VI and VII. This isn't even going into split versions having separate timelines of their own.

More importantly though why are you outright dissing the game when it's not even out yet? Yeah Gen VI wasn't thought out at all. Yeah Gen VI messed things up chronologically and introduced elements that didn't make much sense and weren't explained. But how do you know Sun and Moon are just as bad if not worse just because they include features you don't like? Alola Forms aren't a replacement for older Pokemon; it's basically region variants that have already shown up in other places that people have wanted for a while. The Ultra Beasts aren't bad either as in PMD there's at least two major enemies that aren't Pokemon and can't be befriended. But most importantly we don't really know how all these features will function in a game that hasn't been released yet and that we know little about. You're standing on the church tower with a big megaphone yelling

"POKEMON IS RUINED FOREVER! THEY JUMPED THE SHARPEDO FOR SURE THIS TIME!!!"

when you didn't even give the games a proper chance yet. Wait until they're released, play through them, and after we know what lore changes they bring to the table THEN we can decide if they're as bad as Gen VI or not. To be honest I'm not sure why you're upset over Mega Evolution being partially phased out; wasn't it gamebreaking anyways?

 

[Mister Coffee]

I'm sorry dude, I can understand that you are personally against the changes, because change is scary, but it doesn't mean that pokemon is dying.

First of all, your statement about the timelines is completely misinformed.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it.

If you have ever played R/S/E, not OR/AS specifically, you would know that the timeline of Hoenn in the original generation 3 games takes place three years before Generation 1 and 2. They didn't suddenly invent this background info specifically for Generation 6's remakes. Check the facts.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Generation_III

From Bulbapedia: "Details in the Hoenn- and Kanto-based games hint that the storyline of Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald is contemporaneous with that of FireRed and LeafGreen (and due to this, contemporaneous with Generation I as well), placing Generation III three years before Generation II and Generation IV, themselves contemporaneous."

Next, Pokemon's an RPG with many borrowed RPG elements from many different games and other sources of media. They're not trying to be anything other than pokemon games. The specific formula of badge collecting and beating the elite four is not all and everything that pokemon is built around. It's a complex monster raising, team building, competetive battling, collecting and trading game. These games have constantly grown changed HEAVILY in every single game. In generation 2 they introduced breeding, babies, and stat manipulation. That's a DRASTIC change to the formula compared to what we had in the original generation 1 games. Generation 3 gave us Natures, Abilities, and Qualities (Contest Stats). Once again, SERIOUS changes. This goes on and on with every single new generation, all of these changes are constantly affecting pokemon of previous games and giving them new growth by expanding in depth of ways to manipulate their growth, whether it's adding new item evolutions, new regional evolutions, or even Mega evolutions, it's all pokemon. The franchise is constantly growing as time moves on and we move into more powerful and more capable technology.

Alola forms are the next big change! Yes, we already know for a fact that GF has no understanding of Meta game, nor do they care in the slightest about it, but that lack of not caring does not mean that the addition of Alola forms is not natural to the lore of overall pokemon growth. Pokemon have shown to change based on the are of the region that they are in. My favorite example of this is Arbok. Arbok has a different neck pattern in every single new region.

Spoiler:

Arbok is proof that Game Freak has always (since at least generation 2 anyways) wanted to do regional changed pokemon who have adapted to various different climates and Eco systems. I will admit, that I am a little sad that these Alola forms will be replacing their original formed pokemon most likely at a competitive value, but as I explained, Game Freak has proven to not care about balance in Meta.
Though I can not assert enough, that all of this at a lore perspective and following the pokemon formula, it really does make sense as an addition to the pokemon franchise.

As for the concept that Mega's will be completely forgotten. This is just not true. If they were intending to throw away the mechanic, than we would not have seen its return in the most recent revealed preview. It's very apparent that we'll not be seeing much Mega Evolution progress in these new games, but it is obvious that they will be present in the games and will be accessible in post game.
I also must repeat what I said previously. GAME FREAK DOES NOT CARE ABOUT COMPETITIVE, they have absolutely no influence in what happens at VGC's. They just don't care. They have no say as to whether Mega Evolution should be phased out or not. Therefore since there is no connection that means that the lack of using Megas in competitive has no influence on anything that might be occurring in the current game nor the later games.

Overall the pokemon games are still pokemon games, and part of being a pokemon game is being in a constant form of change. Overall it's about the pokemon, and with each generation we have seen nothing but growth and expansion within the pokemon themselves.

If you decided that you have grown out of pokemon games or are just plain stuck in a pit of Nostalgia, that's on you, not Game Freak.

 

[Nah]

I'm not getting involved in this but Cerberus I hope you were prepared for an overwhelmingly negative response to this thread of yours

 

[BettyNewbie]

There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.

For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements.

Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless.

Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another.

And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why.

My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

Couldn't have said it better, myself. {:3}

Everything about Sun/Moon feels like a ploy on GF's part to reinvent Pokémon into something it isn't and compete with other franchises (like Yo-Kai Watch). I can see why they're doing it--Gens 5 and 6 sold below expectations--but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And, I'm not sure if it will even be successful. Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

 

[mew_nani]

Couldn't have said it better, myself. {:3}

Everything about Sun/Moon feels like a ploy on GF's part to reinvent Pokémon into something it isn't and compete with other franchises (like Yo-Kai Watch). I can see why they're doing it--Gens 5 and 6 sold below expectations--but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And, I'm not sure if it will even be successful. Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

Reinventing... what? Is the inclusion of Gyms and a Pokemon League and an evil team so big a part of Pokemon that it defines the entire thing, let alone having outside context enemies and regional variants of Pokemon? The whole reason sales are down to begin with is that traditional Pokemon games are so unwavering from this formula that they're becoming repetitive and bland. What's so bad about a Pokemon game that doesn't have gyms? You're still catching mons and filling up a Pokedex and trashing an evil team or two. Heck I'd personally love a Pokemon game that functioned a bit more like a traditional RPG, which is what X and Y were going for and failed to achieve in favor of just being a generic copy-paste of Gen IV not including the lore. Imagine a game that takes place when AZ was king, or a game where you journey around in ancient Johto or Sinnoh. Those games wouldn't have the same core formula either but is that a bad thing necessarily? Trying to enforce the notion that Pokemon absolutely has to follow the same generic pattern is like trying to enforce the idea that all Mario games should be platformers that center around rescuing Peach from Bowser.

 

[Bounsweet]

"On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore."
^ Just wanted to point out that Raichu was used by the VGC 2016 Champion and that it is very popular in the current meta, so moot point.

Also the banning of megas in the next format is irrelevant to whether or not developers are interested in the mechanic, and has entirely to do with how balancing works. Currently, megas dominate the current meta to the point where it's impossible to have any form of serious team diversity. The changes in the format every year are intended to help stabilize and update it. Nothing to do with "dead mechanics" or whatever.

They know damn well what they are doing, and they're doing it well as I and tons upon tons of people who are excited for SM think. Mechanics come and go in Pokemon all the time. Each gen loses something that was introduced, Pokemon has always been like this with every single generation except for perhaps Gen I - III which consisted of solid upgrading. As shown in the latest news trailer however, these things do tend to resurface, since we're basically getting Join Avenue 2.0 in SM.

 

[Hikamaru]

Angelica's point is one I agree with. I actually don't mind the drastic changes Sun & Moon are making, but like said, not everyone likes a certain Pokemon game.

We're only a month out from release and we have learned of a lot of new features, but also we've been having a lot of other stuff kept secret. Like Angelica said, we don't know much else at this stage apart from the new Pokemon, the Alola Forms and some of the new features. Heck, we don't even know any cities, towns or routes in Alola yet either!

 

[CidHazard]

Pokemon, in essence is an RPG where you raise and catch different monster to fight for you. The structure of the story and the world/Level design is just a bonus really... You're not going into a pokemon game for a mind blowing story, you're playing it to catch and battle with your favorite mons. The game is also built to be fairly easy to understand, but has a certain level of depth so both casual and hardcore players can enjoy the game...

The story/level structure of Sun and Moon is different yes, but is that such really such a bad thing. Diverging from the series 20 year old formula is the best thing GF can do to old fans who've grown tired of...

battle a couple of gyms -> meet evil organization -> battle a couple more gyms -> catch the legendary pokemon on the cover of the game -> beat the evil organization -> battle some more gym -> fight the elite four -> battle and beat the champion -> Play endless late game content.

You say their not paying homage to the old games... and yet the Alolan forms and Mega's (Diancie is the only gen 6 pokemon to get a mega) are here to celebrate old-gen Pokemon... Also, GF had never cared for creating a meta game for pokemon (Look at the way they give Pokemon abilities, their more focused on giving them abilities that match their character/personality/biology/mythology). VGC is owned by the Pokemon Company yes, but they have no input to the creation of the Pokemon games. The best they can do to influence the meta is banning Pokemon.

Lack of consistency? gen 1-5 had the same exact structure just new mons.

Add to the fact that we haven't even played the full game or even the demo... It kind of looks like your hating Sun and Moon for being 'new' or different. It's to early to judge...

I can definitely see where your coming from. Change is scary and there is a lot of changes in the upcoming Sun and Moon. But as always we should try to keep an open mind - so we don't ruin the experience for ourselves.

 

[Candy]

I like how you're going with this, but let me give a nice reminder on how XY is basically pandering to the nostalgia of many fans.

Kanto Starters? Check, and give them Megas as a bonus. Santalune Forest? It's just a 3D Viridian Forest. Snorlax blocking the path and you need a Pokeflute? Yeah got that covered. And how it was received by the longing fans? Quite negatively. Sure the features were great and all but overall, the story's too bland, it felt too easy and you really feel the whole "yeah we just want to get a 3DS Pokemon game out" kind of vibe.

The fans want something that feels fresher than what we've been playing for the past 20 years. In essence, there's still Gyms in the form of Trials, there's an evil organization, and you travel the world catching and raising Pokemon to fight. Isn't that what Pokemon's main identity is based on? It's not different from the core formula.

just be glad they didn't completely remove the Megas, unlike some things like the Wonder Launcher (anyone remembered that?) and the BATTLE FREAKING FRONTIER. Sure they won't be the main focus of the game since that was last gen's new special feature, so this gen they'll be focusing on the Z-Moves and the Alolan forms, because they're the ones that are new. Megas might get touched upon, but it'll be quite minor.

Also tell me, homage? Do we seriously have to include homage to old games in the new games? Pretty sure we got nearly all the differing wireless features introduced so far packed into one area, and we even got a Pokemon-Snap-esque feature thanks to all the fans clamoring for a Snap remake/sequel. Oh, and how all the Alolan mons are Gen 1 mons? And how Mimikyu is just something dressed up as a Pikachu? idk, be the judge.

 

[Salzorrah]

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate for just a bit here, and agree that banning Megas in VGC is a stupid move tbh. I mean, they did make it a big deal back in Gen 6, but now, it's pretty much obsolete and stuff, like they're trying to forget they exist, and they just added them in S&M so fans wouldnt complain as much.

This does bring me to the next point, the future of Pokemon. When Gen 8 rolls around, what happens to the Alola Forms? They're called Alola forms for a reason. Would that indicate those forms be obsolete in the future?

Most of what Cerebrus said, I generally disagree, but he did bring up an interesting point regarding Megas tho.

 

[KillerTyphlosion]

People complaining about VGC banning mega's is stupid. We will probably not be able to use lots of the legendaries of previous gens, because they will be uncatchable in Sun and Moon. Remember when XY came out. All pre gen 6 pokémon were banned from VGC. A lot of the popular pokémon in gen 5 couldn't be used because you couldn't catch them in XY or because the lack of move tutors some were garbage. In VGC 2018 we will probably see mega's again and we will be able to use transferred Pokémon.

 

[kingdenas]

So you're hating on these games because they changed the formula? Just because GF created new features, and changed old ones, you say the Pokémon Games are ruined? Sincerily, I was so sick and tired of the whole "Battle Gyms - defeat evil team - capture legend - battle gyms - battle Elite Four - Battle Champion - End" formula. I really love they made Alola unique.. Since the region it's based on Hawaii, I think the concept of Trials really suit the region. Plus, it's just a minor change.... You still progress through the game while doing Trials (=Gyms), you still battle the evil Team (= Team Skull and/or Aether Foundation), you still explore the region and learn about its Lore (= connection to the Legendaries), and most importantly, you still catch Pokémon and use them on your team, growing stronger while you progress through the game (=Pokémon Games).

I don't know why you're judging the book by its cover here.... Sun and Moon haven't come out yet, so we can't say if they're good or not, and changing the formula isn't what makes the game bad...

 

[blue]

Honestly? I don't know how you can judge a game that hasn't even been released yet. It's fine that you have your own opinion and that you're not happy with changes at this stage, but at least give these games a chance before casting judgement.

My personal opinion is that these games are looking great! I love how they've changed the formula, by not doing so can make the franchise start to feel a little stale after seven generations. It's not like these games are a far cry from XY/ORAS or earlier generations, the core mechanics still pretty much remain intact. We will still be travelling around a new region, capturing Pokemon, fighting a villainous team and so on. Although there are some bigger changes coming into play, I wouldn't say they signal the end of the franchise by any means necessary. I completely welcome these changes and I don't think I've been this hyped for Pokemon games in years tbh.

 

[CidHazard]

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate for just a bit here, and agree that banning Megas in VGC is a stupid move tbh. I mean, they did make it a big deal back in Gen 6, but now, it's pretty much obsolete and stuff, like they're trying to forget they exist, and they just added them in S&M so fans wouldnt complain as much.

I don't think Game freak would just axe the Mega forms after gen 6... Realistically, the assets are already there; Just taking them out would be a waste of used development time. Mega evolution isn't going anywhere, they're just focusing on a different mechanics right now; Mainly Alola forms and The Z moves - That's why I believe there will not be any new mega evolution in this new game.

Again VGC has no bearing on the Pokemon GF creates or have any influence in any new pokemon. They just set up and manage the huge Pokemon Tournaments and just make a standard set of tournament rules. VGC tournament rules changes every year to spice things up (Changing it from singles to doubles or mega rayquaza and the two primals being allowed for vgc 2016) - They may ban the use of megas on 2017 but put them back in 2018. It's not obsolete or forgotten their just shifting their focus (I'm honestly sick of seeing mega kangaskan and the primals in tournaments so this is a rather refreshing change for me).

 

[Lunar]

I can see the logic of some of the stuff you're saying here but I really don't think we can give the games hate before they've even come out. And imo the good far outweighs the bad as far as Sun and Moon are concerned.

 

[Desert Stream~]

We've already been confirmed pokemon games for the NX, so no, pokemon isn't dying out anytime soon.
As for megas, I'm guessing it's because they are overpowered (like kangaskhan) or you just won't be able to get the stones yet.
And alolan forms? Based on what we've seen, it looks like they evolve with stones, so in gen 8, we just need to find an ice stone to get alolan Ninetales, then breed to get alolan vulpix.
And just because we're not in alola doesn't mean there can't be new forms. If we do get that Sinnoh remake, there could very well be Sinnoh forms.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Pokémon is a JRPGs, and with JRPGs, gamers mostly care for deeper storylines, which is why games like Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Xenogear, Mother 3, and Persona 3 were highly acclaimed by critics and fans alike. But according to a fellow friend of mine from Disquis, the story is the least interesting part of Pokémon, because the main focus is just trying to catch all Pokémon, which gets more and more difficult with new Pokémon introduced.

I'll just link my article on Disquis discussing the debate between fans who want more single player experience vs. fans who want a better competitive experience, so I won't have to copy/paste what I said from that thread.

I would say this though, about how reading these replies made me sad about people complain about the Pokémon formula being stale and repetitive yet complain about the rest of Nintendo's games for deriving from their formulas. *coughZeldacough*

 

[clbgolden]

I would say this though, about how reading these replies made me sad about people complain about the Pokémon formula being stale and repetitive yet complain about the rest of Nintendo's games for deriving from their formulas. *coughZeldacough*

Hey, don't group me with those guys, I like the changes made for Zelda BotW.

... Then again, I never really found the Pokémon formula "stale" either.