- 303
- Posts
- 8
- Years
- Seen Nov 1, 2023
There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.
For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements.
Fast forward to ORAS.
In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless.
Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another.
And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why.
My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.
Sigh* Okay, you are entitled to your opinion, but as a Pokemon fan, I'd like to give you some insight on my opinion as well. Please don't take this as an insult, but it's important that I note some things about what you said:
First off, "There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it."
Um..no. First off, the formula should've been changed by gen 4. The formula is not well-structured. In theory it is a good idea, but the only reason it worked was because it was new and something not done yet. Outside of theory, the execution has been a bit lackluster to say the least. You are supposed to tell me that a little kid is supposed to be responsible for taking care of a whole town? I understand that not all gym leaders are little kids and I also know that an 11 year-old kid going on a journey is stupid enough( I can get by it for the sake of the game), but at least with the trial Captains, they have to be approved by some SYSTEM to be a Captain. In generation 4, Riley, a partner trainer, states that the League invited him to be a part of the E4, but he declined! What is preventing any idiot from joining the league for the sake of some evil plan or beating the Champion for some evil plan. Oh wait, it didn't stop N and Team Plasma. Not to mention that after you become the champion, that you don't even do anything champion related. You just kinda wander around doing nothing but battling harder trainers. You don't even get to battle possible Champion candidates even though YOU have the title. The original Red and Green is even worse with this as after beating the game, there is nothing to do, but complete the Pokedex, which is a pain if you don't have friends. This is "well-structured"? This is "consistent"? Even in Pokemon land this makes little sense.
As for lore, have you even looked at the Pokedex? Sheninja is supposed to suck out the soul of people who look at it from behind, but in battle, you see it from behind ALL THE TIME. In Pokemon Fire Red, a research team supposedly found remnants of Mew in South America....you know... a country that should not exist in the Pokemon World because it was never once established (in the games) that the continents we know exist in Pokemon? There are hundreds of plotholes in Pokemon like this, but I can't go over them in such little time, so here's a link to one of the many videos that point this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PH-hhKNkNs
"where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it."
Okay, I admit that Pokemon has become more complicated than it's roots, but that doesn't make it a bad thing. Pokemon needs to grow for the sake of getting a bigger audience. It wouldn't be here today if Pokemon didn't try to expand. I understand that it could be a bit jarring, but you should at least give it a chance.
"For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements."
No...Pokemon, the creatures you battle with, is what made Pokemon, "Pokemon" the battles, are what make Pokemon "Pokemon". I guess your definition of what makes Pokemon is different than mine, but in some sort of stretch, In media, the anime is what forms people's perception of Pokemon. You don't necessarily need the gym battles and E4 to make a pokemon game. That's why Pokemon Colosseum and XD exist as a well as the Mystery Dungeon series and Conquest. I will agree that you do know what to expect in Pokemon and that additions to the lore are good, but that's the problem, the meat of the issue: Pokemon has had the same formula for 20 years. I know if it's not broken, don't fix it, but the gym leader/E4/Champion system is broken. You can easily beat one gym leader( with very few exceptions) with one Pokemon. Even as a kid, I knew that you could do that. As a result, the challenge becomes non-existent. I know that Pokemon is geared towards kids, but kids are not stupid and can easily figure out the stuff I did. Also:
"Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements."
This line confuses me. Are you trying to say that lore was/is only speculation and that it should stay that way? What?( no, seriously, please correct me on this). What makes gen 7 negate from other generations? Please tell me. I haven't once seen gen 7 say that Mewtwo doesn't exist or some sort of shit like that. In ORAS, they did change a bunch of stuff including parts of the lore, but that was only for THEIR LEGENDARIES, NO ONE ESLE. How does Groudon and Kyorge affect anything from before but the original games or Ruby or Sapphire? Why should Gamefreak not try to expand on the lore? How is that a bad thing?
"Fast forward to ORAS.
In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless."
First of all, the multiple timeline story has been blown way out of proportion. It is NOT CANON Zinnia implied it could be canon. It's just that every person and their mother saw what she said and took it as fact when in reality it's just speculation. Say what you want, but that the truth. For the sake of the argument, if it is canon, who cares if it broke the timeline in 2? It's half-ass, but at least there was some semblance of trying to explain why Mega evolution exists and why we haven't seen it yet. Plus, the theory never stated that the past gens stories did not happen. All the theory is, is that there are two timelines. That's it. The rest is just speculation. Also, how are the old games worthless? ORAS was simply a remake of the original games. If they really wanted to make it worthless they would never reference the old games ever in any way, shape, or form, which they have done. As for Megas...I'll get to that in a moment.
"Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another."
This probably ticks me off the most in my opinion. What is wrong with trying something different that is good for the sake of the franchise. Please tell me. Because all I see is someone complaining that the franchise is changing and not giving any solutions on how it could change for the better. "Trials" may be common in other rpgs, but keep in mind we barely have any side quests in Pokemon that don't include trading or a legendary Pokemon involved. Plus, we don't even know how they will work( not in the order-sense is what I mean). As for Alolan forms, they do not go against Pokemon lore, it supports it. Pokemon are the "animals" of the world in the games. It has been proven in-game that Pokemon of all shapes and sizes can adapt to the environment and change form/colour/type. Why should Eevee be the only Pokemon to change? In reality, Eevee is not special by any means. In fact, because of evolution, Eevee is pretty normal in the world, but I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that animals adapting is normal. Also, how do these forms make the original Pokemon obsolete? I'm still going to love my regular Vulpix like many other people. Changing the stats/ appearance of these Pokemon won't change that fact, in fact, it makes people love them more because they have a new variety that they wouldn't have had as their own type. Plus, Gamefreak is trying to give a new spin to old Pokemon that need it. The only time I heard of people talking about Marowak was the whole Cubone's mother thing. Now, people might actually get invested and use a Marowak. It might not be the original, but that it their choice.
"Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another."
First off, you are once again believing speculation to be fact. We don't know if ultra beast are uncatchable. I even checked the offical Pokemon site and Serebii.com. It doesn't say that they are not cathable. All the sites say are that they could pose a threat to humans/pokemon implying they are not Pokemon. Also, what? Ultra Beast are not Pokemon from what we know so far and you are confusing me with, "Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with" Please explain.
"And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."
Seriously calling new games a trainwreck before they come out? Nice. Also, Megas should be banned for tournaments. Say what you will, but in my opinion, Megas are too Op and people probably don't want to see the same set of Mega Kangaskan every time they battle someone in tournaments. It's not that they aren't interested in making new ones. For a game company, you are right, it makes no sense to make almost 50 new designs and buffs for Pokemon and not use them, but have you ever thought that they just don't want the focus on Megas this gen? It may seem odd, but with the whole new influx of Pokemon and Alolan forms maybe Pokemon doesn't want Megas to take up all the spotlight. You can still obtain them with the new Pokemon Wifi thing( can't remember at the moment) in Sun and Moon with BP and before you complain, we don't know how hard it will be to obtain BP in SuMo and with Pokemon Bank it's super easy to grind for BP.
"This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. "
It's not that inconsistent really. I admit, I was skeptical on whether Megas would return, but I knew that couldn't be the case as they are so popular. If there is one thing I think we can both agree on it's that, Pokemon Company likes getting money. The reason we got Ash-Greninja is because it is so damn popular. Megas are way too popular/profitable to just be gone next gen. They may not make new ones for this gen as they want to focus on other stuff than Megas, but that is Pokemon Company's choice. (I already mentioned my thoughts on the timeline above so no comment here).
"It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."
First of all, Pokemon is taking a new direction because there is a new director named Shigeru Ohmori. He has very different plans for Sun and Moon and for more thoughts here's a link:
https://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/ohmori/
I can't speak for Pokemon Company but I'm sure that they know what they are doing(unlike X and Y which just felt rushed, but that's a conversation for another day) This isn't like Gen 6 when it was the first time Pokemon was using 3d models and graphics, this game clearly has more experienced people working with the franchise finding out what works and what doesn't.
"This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."
There are certain features that don't stay with each gen like the Pokenav/Poketch but those are relatively small and don't affect the gameplay. I get the concern with Z moves, but let's put this into perspective. Alola is a remote tropical island. If Z-crystals are certain special crystals that can only be found in Alola, I feel that would make the most sense. Once again, this is specultion and for all that happens they could be gone in gen 8, but I doubt it. Z-moves affect the gameplay severely. Now, you have to worry about your opponent using a Z-move. They wouldn't drop it unless it wasn't popular or didn't help anything.
"My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.
Sorry to break this to you, but as I stated before, Pokemon has always been inconsistent. The reason why it gets away with it is because there is much more to Pokemon than it being inconsistent. Because people can enjoy the game for what it is, it doesn't matter if Pokemon is somewhat inconsistent. All people care about is that the game can be good DESPITE it's inconsistencies. Are there things that most likely will stay like Mega Evolutions? Yeah, but I can't predict the future, just like no one else can. As much as people try, Pokemon is pretty hard to track down on trends. I can't even think about what they might do next. However, it's best not to judge the worse of the franchise just because it seems different. Please tell me, what do you want in a Pokemon game? From what you've written you clearly have a distaste for Pokemon SuMo right now. So....what do you want then? What do want changed? Please tell me so I can understand because right now, I don't know what fans like you want.
"We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games."
True and False. Yes, I buy Pokemon games because I want to play Pokemon, but on the other hand no... I buy Pokemon games because of the Pokemon/features. I don't just buy it because it has the formula, if I did, then I wouldn't try the spinoffs like many other people. People, including me, buy Pokemon games for fun. If Pokemon Sun and Moon didn't look to be fun, I would not have any interest in it. I do have interest because Pokemon is trying something outside it's comfort zone and I'm curious to see how it is. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, Pokemon learns not to do it again. However, I need to stress that we don't know how these games are going to be like yet, so it's best not to be extremely negative about it. ( Not to say you aren't allowed to have an opinion, you have every right to one, this is just how I feel--in other words my opinion).
"It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected."
Wait...so you are aware that Pokemon is getting stale? I'm confused now. You stated earlier:
"For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon".
So, I assumed that you probably thought that the new changes to Pokemon could be bad, but now they aren't? What? I probably stated this too much already but once again, please explain.
How is Pokemon transforming into something it's not? As long as it is under the Pokemon label it is Pokemon. You can believe otherwise and have every right to, but that's how it is. Also, Pokemon Company can do whatever they want for their 20th Anniversary games. There's no set-in stone about what they have to do. If they want to change the formula and add references in honor of the 20th Anniversary, they have every right to do it. The game is still going to sell as long as there isn't any huge bug or something like that. Lastly,Pokemon is not neglecting the older games, that is a lie. Pokemon has always had some sort of reference to older games.
Gen 2 is practically an entire homage to gen 1, with almost everything Kanto put into it.
Gen 3 has Pikachu and the first bug Pokemon found in the same forest. Gen 3 also has post-game Safari zone with Gen 2 Pokemon in it.
Gen 4 has an Eevee given out to you and the early bug pokemon being from Gen 3( Wurmple). In Platinum, they added more Gen 2 Pokemon such as Houndour.
In the recent games, Gen 6, the game with arguably the most references to gen 1, you got:
-The first forest made up of the same layout as Viridian Forest, including the first bug Pokemon in the game, a rare encounter of Pikachu, and being a lush forest.
- You get the choose the KANTO STARTERS SPECIFICALLY.
- The KANTO STARTERS also get Mega Evolutions and Charizard gets 2.
- You get to capture the KANTO LEGENDARIES post-game
- There is a cave in which you get to capture Mewtwo, a Pokemon that you could also capture in the original Red and Green...in Cerulean Cave.
- Mewtwo gets 2 Mega Evolutions
and finally, a majority of non-Kalos Pokemon in Gen 6 are from Kanto.
In Gen 7 we also got Kanto Pokemon getting Alola forms( we don't know if it's exclusive yet, but who knows at this point) and Pokemon Snap 2.0
I'm pretty sure Pokemon wouldn't have put any of these references in if they didn't care about the older games. They don't have to put in something akin to, " Red exists in Kanto and he's really strong" just to prove that they care about the other games. I think the fact they went out of there way to make it clear that they love Kanto/any previous gen is more than enough proof that they haven't forgotten anything on purpose.
Last edited: