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Trump

PokéMew1

Pokémon Fuchsia
  • 484
    Posts
    11
    Years
    I know there is already a Presidential Election Thread in this section, but I want to focus specifically on Donald Trump, and what everyone's thoughts are on him. Everyone at the school I attend hates Trump, and for the stupidest reasons. Sure, he makes a big show when it really isn't necessary, but in reality, is it really not necessary? Do people want a boring candidate who only stands up there and says what he's gonna do? Unfortunately, America has come to the point where that isn't acceptable... Take a look at all the memes made of Trump. They're only there because of the show Trump puts on, which, in reality, get his viewer's attention. Personally, I like a lot, if not most of what Trump has to say. I have reason to like what he says as well, which I would share but I think at this point I'll leave it to everyone else. I might bring up the other points later on, though. All in all, I think it's stupid to hate Trump just because everyone else hates him; in other words, it's pretty much the norm to hate Trump, especially to the younger audiences. The funny part is, though, look at where he is in the polls..
    Anyway, share your thoughts here. Also, don't hate on each other for which candidate they like and don't like, just make sure to back up what you're trying to say.
     
    What do you like about Trump?

    Well personally, I think he believes a lot of the same things as me. For one, he is opposed to the idea of gun control; taking guns wont get us anywhere, it'll only increase crime rate as people will have nothing to protect themselves with. I also like the idea of removing illegal immigrants out of the country by building a wall funded by Mexico; give me a reason why they should stay. (I'm racist, aren't I?). A bunch of other statements he's made I agree with as well, like how obamacare is a disaster, the black lives matter movement is trouble (Now I'm super racist, right?), climate control is literally just weather, etc. But look at him, he is a multi-billionaire; he's been broke and has climbed back up multiple times, and is still one of the richest men in the world. If Trump didn't know anything about negotiation, how is this the case?
     
    There's a big difference between being popular and being a good president. Also be careful looking solely at opinion polls as they can be misleading, as shown by the 2015 UK General election. Anyway, onto trump himself. I consider him a very dangerous person and would live in fear if he became president. Why? Because his number one aim is to make the USA the greatest country in the world. You wanna know who else said that? Julius Caeser, Alexander the Great, Agamemnon, Hitler, the list goes on. All of them were obsessed with making their country the best. How did they do that? By invading other countries. If Trump became president I wouldn't be surprised if he went the same way, and tried to justify it as a "pre-emptive strike".

    Then there's the general lunacy of his ideals. Building a wall on the Mexican border and making the Mexicans pay to build it? Yeah, good luck with that one buddy.... and how about his stance on guns which is pretty much to stop the fight by bringing in more guns..... "the recent massacre in Paris would have played out differently with the bullets flying in the other direction" well he's right about that, with the difference being twice as many victims of those bullets. I'm not a religious person but I will fervently pray to God every day if it means Trump doesn't get elected.
     
    Well personally, I think he believes a lot of the same things as me. For one, he is opposed to the idea of gun control; taking guns wont get us anywhere, it'll only increase crime rate as people will have nothing to protect themselves with. I also like the idea of removing illegal immigrants out of the country by building a wall funded by Mexico; give me a reason why they should stay. (I'm racist, aren't I?). A bunch of other statements he's made I agree with as well, like how obamacare is a disaster, the black lives matter movement is trouble (Now I'm super racist, right?), climate control is literally just weather, etc. But look at him, he is a multi-billionaire; he's been broke and has climbed back up multiple times, and is still one of the richest men in the world. If Trump didn't know anything about negotiation, how is this the case?

    How do you get Mexico to pay for the wall? How is Obamacare a disaster? How is climate change literally just weather?
     
    To talk about Trump, you have to talk about the issues he is preying upon and the culture in which he is thriving.
    Trump's success could not have happened 4 years ago, maybe not even in 2014 if that were an election year. It could not have happened during the 2000s because the climate was simply not ripe enough for his campaign strategy. But 2016 America is a time full of fear and the people's desire to, well, make America great again. ISIS exists; the economy is still down the tank; liberals are running amok in the streets; Obama and all that entails; war and so forth. There was never a better time to be an extremist Republican, which is shown by the collapse of the moderates and the falling apart of the GOP.

    His unprecedented success comes from two simple things: fear & glory. Classic attributes which make up the core of any demagogue's platform, but used to extreme effectiveness by Trump's campaign. They're so intertwined in the political climate that to focus on one aspect is to slyly focus on the other as well. But how do fear & glory come into play? You have to look back at the recent history of America for that.

    It begins with the self-victimisation of many a Republican today. We're being persecuted, the liberal media is out to get us or silence us, America is falling apart, etc. It was easy to isolate the extreme self-victimisation to the Tea Party members who were seen as fringe outliers, but given how these fringe outsiders make up the voters putting Trump and Cruz where they are today, they can't be called outsiders anymore. Trump has lent an ear to these people. He's played on the fear of the elite and the masses alike. The persecution complex present in so many of Trump's base is truly something to gaze upon in wonderous dread. So portraying himself as the man who will say what he wants and will not be shut down is naturally going to make him a demigod to these people. He's telling the truth and he won't bow to anyone! He's not responsible to anyone but himself, no one can shape his agenda! He's a true master of showmanship because he can bankroll his campaign and then feed on the endless attention he gets. This comes back to the 'it's the norm to hate Trump' idea. He knows exactly how he is perceived, he knows exactly how that would appear to his sympathisers. The media is out to destroy him! They're persecuting him! They're persecuting us! Raaah! Each time he is attacked for his stances, it just continues to make him stronger in the eyes of his supporters.

    America was never 'post-racial' as some people like to believe. That's a foolish myth propagated by those who would rather stick their heads in the sand, or those who continue to benefit from the belief that because black people aren't being openly lynched in the streets, things are well & dandy for everyone. Obviously, the widely-reported events of the last couple of years have highlighted the fact that nothing has really changed. The racial tinderbox is still burning just as brightly as it ever was. Same goes for how many Americans view Mexico, or how many Americans view China, so forth. The point is the fear & hatred innate in racism. Now, Trump is well aware of the views of his voters. He knows where many of their sympathies lie, even if they are subtle leanings as opposed to outright beliefs. I don't think he believes anything himself, but he or his campaign team know how to use his core base. He has easily tapped into those feelings and given them a whole new relevancy, giving validation to their racism and saying 'Yes, you are right to have these beliefs. And I'm gonna make sure they're heard - you just have to tick the right ballot.'

    The ever-present fear of ISIS is the next big thing. The looming Big Bad also intertwines with racism, but allows Trump to focus on a whole new agenda of fear: ISIS is out there and it hates everything about you and will not stop until Muslims rule the world! Hatred of Muslims as an 'other' existed in America before ISIS, before 9/11 and al-Queda, but the last 15 years have ramped up Islamophobia in the Western world to absolutely abhorrent, inhuman levels. Romney tapped into this but as I said before, the climate wasn't ripe enough for a Trumpesque strategy to become viable. It's become remarkably easy to tap into the innate fear of terrorist Muslims - I know people who are otherwise strong/'devout' believers in everything to do with liberalism, but support the backlash against Muslims wholeheartedly because of their fears. Imagine how easy it would be to tap into the fear of Islam present in his own party. It especially doesn't help when you have so much of the world demonising Angela Merkel for 'allowing a Muslim invasion in Europe' to take place and focusing on headline-grabbing horror stories happening there. As you can see, the common thread here is Trump masterfully latching on to the fears of his base and amplifying them.

    I don't know much about the economy. I really don't care about math in general. But before Trump was Trump the Politician, he was Trump the Super-Capitalist Reality Star. Making his name the brand and earning untold amounts of money in the process. I don't think I need to elaborate on the appeal to many of a super-wealthy billionaire fixing the American economy. He's a self-made man! Excluding Daddy's start-up cash, but that doesn't factor into the minds of his supporters. He's the right man to take control and lead us back into greatness! To be frank, I think the discussion about Trump's wealth has been done to death and we all know what's going to be said. I just think it should be mentioned in this post for posterity.

    Perhaps I give too much agency to Trump - perhaps he really is the xenophobic, cruel, idiotic tool it is so easy to portray him as. He actually has some rather liberal policies but I'll get to that later. But underestimating him and the extent of how America hasn't changed is what got us here in the first place. He really is the ultimate cunning businessman and letting us think he was a mere ratings grab and a fool was how he slipped by us. Amoral and playing the game with no scruples about how he gets to the next point in line. He was even pro-Hillary in the past when it suited him. Republican to Independent to Democrat to Republican again. On his liberal policies, though. It's rather interesting - he has voiced support for funding Planned Parenthood, he ultimately supports universal healthcare despite some statements to the contrary and not that I understand the economy, perhaps Kanzler can enlighten the thread on this, but he's apparently rather similar to Sanders in some aspects as well. So... that's something.

    All in all, he's the demagogue's demagogue.
     
    @Harley

    Trump and Sanders are both protectionist candidates who want to review trade relations with other countries including NAFTA and normal trade relations with China. They are both critical and pessimistic about the TPP. They both hold the view that free trade agreements tend to undermine American wages by shipping jobs overseas and that is more important than increasing the amount of trade.

    This point of view is appealing to working class Americans who have suffered from outsourcing over the past few decades. Some of them have probably worked in factories their entire lives and don't make enough money to justify going back to school. In 2014, about 60% of Americans over the age of 25 did not have a college degree. I did the math and over 40% of Americans over 25 do not have more than a high school diploma. That's a whole lot of people who are facing unemployment or lower wages and don't have the means to get a higher-paying, more-secure job.
     
    @Harley

    Trump and Sanders are both protectionist candidates who want to review trade relations with other countries including NAFTA and normal trade relations with China. They are both critical and pessimistic about the TPP. They both hold the view that free trade agreements tend to undermine American wages by shipping jobs overseas and that is more important than increasing the amount of trade.

    This point of view is appealing to working class Americans who have suffered from outsourcing over the past few decades. Some of them have probably worked in factories their entire lives and don't make enough money to justify going back to school. In 2014, about 60% of Americans over the age of 25 did not have a college degree. I did the math and over 40% of Americans over 25 do not have more than a high school diploma. That's a whole lot of people who are facing unemployment or lower wages and don't have the means to get a higher-paying, more-secure job.

    There we go then! I only have a vague understanding of the TPP and that's because most of New Zealand were losing their shit over it. Too much legalese for me.
     
    I am not a fan of Trump. He doesn't support the LGBT+ community, which I am a part of, so why would I vote for a person who would suppress me? Besides that he is very racist. He is xenophobic. I do not understand how a wall is supposed to help this country at all. Immigrants aren't stealing jobs. Immigrants aren't bad people and the last time I checked, immigration is one of the foundations that made the US what it is today. (English settlers were immigrants, when America started expanding west ward, immigration was encouraged.) Just because someone is middle eastern, Latino/Latina, African American, ect. does not mean that they are dangerous.

    He is playing on people's fears and using that to attract supporters. Honestly, I see him being a parallel to Hitler in that regard. And by the way, many things he is saying that he will do if he gets elected are unconstitutional. Trump has filed bankruptcy for all the businesses he has run. He has no idea how the American government works and electing him as a president is just a bad idea.

    Of course, I don't tend to dabble in politics, so I could be very wrong.
     
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    The Economist also did the maths and figured out that Trump would probably be richer right now if he had simply invested all the money his dad gave him in stocks rather than starting a business- he's actually lost money through his misguided investments during his career. Which, again, doesn't sound very trustworthy if you care to look into it.

    But the truth is that people who are voting for Trump don't really care about facts and evidence, but rather about nice-sounding arguments that reinforce their beliefs. They are the "misinformed", which is worse that simply uninformed because no amount of new information will ever change their worldview. Climate change is "just weather", and if someone brings me a ton of scientific papers backed up by literally every climate scientist out there, well, must be a conspiracy and what about "citizen scientists" who disagree, huh? Yesterday, Ryan made a statement in which he essentially said that "experts" are just "elites" that feel "entitled" to tell people whether they are right or wrong in some topic, and that's so terrible and the way to a dictatorship. Essentially, their pitch is "evidence doesn't matter, knowledge doesn't matter, if you believe cats are vegetables, you deserve to have your beliefs heard!", and Trump has become the leader of that group, by saying all sorts of idiotic things that many people do believe in but nobody dares to say in public.

    But Kanzler is right. His main pitch sounds great to the concentrated amount of people who are disproportionately worse off by foreign trade. Nobody mentions the other side of the coin, that cheaper imports have increased the median american's purchasing power by 25% and the poorest by almost 70%- those benefits are too thinly spread to be noticed by people's prejudices. And, of course, giving economic help to people who are taking the brunt of the situation is harder than to simply talk about protectionism, even though that'd make everybody else way worse off.

    In short, it's a mix of stoking fears, feeding on misinformation and confirming prejudices in public. If a leading candidate says these things, they can't be plain wrong, right?

    Luckily, chances are he won't be elected this time. But there is a lot to do if they don't want him or someone like him to win in the future. And the main question is education. If you educate people properly, they are less likely to acritically believe in all this nonsense, they are more likely to get a good paying work and (surprisingly enough) they are more likely to vote Democrat, which is a surprising correlation someone needs to investigate.
     
    I'm split on trump. On one hand i kinda want him to get in just so i can see how bad he can fuck the country up but on the other hand i don't like him for that exact reason. Trump as president will be a disaster due to many reasons such as the Great Wall of Mexico and he probably won't do the best job at diplomatic talks with overseas counterparts. But as a matter of fact i remember reading though his stance on issues and polices that he would implement and i found myself liking some of them mainly his Tax and Veteran Administration reforms. This isn't saying that i support Trump it's just me agreeing with some of his ideas I'm still one hundred percent behind Berine Sanders. Although if it turns out to be Hillary vs Trump which it's looking like it will be, i do have to admit that i would be leaning towards Trump.
     
    Do Trump supporters think that people don't like him because it's popular not to like him?

    I believe so. Im saying this as a non-Trump supporter. In a way, it has been sort of "popularized" to hate on Trump. From my experiences, which of course are limited, it seems that people hate on him without reason. I hear a lot of "he is racist" or "he is blah blah" and, they have little basis for fact. This is not everyone, and I believe there are legitimate reasons for disliking Trump, but I do not think there a lot of people who actually know what Trump stands for. For example, his stances on tariffs and his foreign police is pretty bad to be honest (at least he is more non-interventionalist than Cruz). And lets not forget the wall. I also disagree with him on climate change- I believe it is a real thing.

    Honestly, I do think think he is as racist or xenophobic as people portray him to be. He is just pointing out immigration issues. This does not make him racist or xenophobic. As far as I know, he hires people of various ethnic groups. And if i am not mistaken, there are minority groups that also support Trump (I do not know percentages). I know he has been supported by the KKK or something, but Ill have to look into that further.

    Im trying to see the why people support the wall. I think it is mostly to preserve Western values and to keep immigrants from taking welfare and expanding the national debt. They look at Europe and do not want to make the same mistakes (mistakes in their eyes, not mine). I have moral issues regarding border security.

    Feel free to correct me if I got something wrong here.
     
    Honestly, I don't really know why people are freaking out about the national debt. As I recall, it's been around since the formation of the United States. I mean, if we didn't pay it all off when the debt was actually sort of manageable, then what's the point of worrying about it now?
     
    Honestly, I don't really know why people are freaking out about the national debt. As I recall, it's been around since the formation of the United States. I mean, if we didn't pay it all off when the debt was actually sort of manageable, then what's the point of worrying about it now?

    This needs explaining, please. Many countries have financed their budgets through debts for centuries. As long as you don't default or are at risk of defaulting, you're fine. Is the United States at risk of defaulting?
     
    God, some of the things i've seen in this thread make my head spin. Stay in school, kids.

    The Donald J. Trump phenomenon is an amalgram of several currents and themes brewing over the past twenty or so years that combined in a sort-of perfect storm to form Trump the presidential candidate and his message. Twentyish years of bad trade policies (NAFTA, etc), from both parties shipped jobs overseas, gutted unions and worker's rights, and in general hurt the middle class and helped the wealthiest fraction of Americans amass a ridiculous and disproportionate amount of wealth and power. Sprinkle in George Bush's train wreck of a presidency - 9/11, failed interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Subprime Mortage crisis and global recession, and now you have even more vitriol towards the government and the "system" at large. Then add a dash of latent racial hatred and bigotry the GOP has manipulated for years towards primarily blacks, muslims, Mexicans, and Barack Obama, and the lowered accepted discourse towards the aforementioned President and racial groups, and you conveniently have a boogieman that angry, disenfranchised, rural, largely uneducated conservative white voters can tear into over their plight the last few years. Then add in an egomaniac, with a flair for the dramatic and a mastery of media and image, and Ta-da! Boom! you have a supposed savior to fight for the angry, disenfranchised white voters who lost jobs to "lazy" Mexicans, were victimized politically, socially, and culturally by the muslim socialist Obummer, his socialist agenda and his Obamacare, and had their very existence as good Christians threatened by Muslim extremists half a world away.

    Now that I gave some context for how Donald Trump could come about in this day and age, everything I just said is a myth. Donald Trump is not a serious politician and should not be treated as such. He is not a very successful businessman, he has no serious economic plan or foreign policy agenda beyond the idiotic wall and the forced deportation of members of an entire religion. His image is a farce, constructed around logical fallacies, misinformation, bigotry and xenophobia. The media has fallen for it, hook, line, and sinker, because his outlandish and incendiary comments generate press and buzz, mouse clicks, read articles, and most importantly ratings, and that's the only reason he's been tolerated thus far. He's become the frontrunner by fanning the flames of racial mistrust, bigotry and hatred, and drowned out the slightly more reasonable voices in the Republican party, compared to his. He targets the uneducated and as previously stated, he preys on victims of economic disenfranchisement and says the idiotic things people usually have the decency to not say. His movement is little more than a parasitic growth off of the Republican party, not unlike the Bull Moose party before it, and even the Republican Party itself shooting off from the Whig Party in the 19th Century.

    On top of all of that, Trump polls horribly within his own party, with every major voting group, with most sane people in general (As Ivysaur astutely pointed out) and polls pretty far behind in a general election against a seasoned Democratic opponent. Sanders and Clinton both beat him, Nate Silver's and other's electoral college forecasts predict a result even greater than Obama's crushing of John McCain in 2008 - 374 votes to 164 or so, with every swing state from '08 and '12 going blue like before, in addition to Arizona, New Mexico, and even Georgia, traditional red states, projecting voting Democrat in '16, which would be almost unprecedented. It would be, simply put, one of the worst electoral defeats in American political history. He would get annihilated.

    So the sooner people realize he's not what people think he is, once they realize this campaign is a farce, a PR stunt gone horrible awry, and an embarrassment to our electoral system, the happier we'll all be.
     
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    If Trump becomes the Republican nominee, I'm hoping he'll move to the centre. The impression I get is that he goes wherever he needs to go to get elected. If he is truly astute at expressing the will and the fear of the people he is representing, then perhaps he will be a better loudspeaker for the voice of the average American in the general election.
     
    If Trump becomes the Republican nominee, I'm hoping he'll move to the centre. The impression I get is that he goes wherever he needs to go to get elected. If he is truly astute at expressing the will and the fear of the people he is representing, then perhaps he will be a better loudspeaker for the voice of the average American in the general election.

    Apparently he is being a bit less vocal and anti-PC. I think he is trying to be more civil to look better at a general election, but I could be wrong. I have heard this from a few different people.
     
    He has no long-standing political allies, doesn't owe anybody any favours, and he doesn't have to rely on corporate donations which gives him the ultimate freedom to create whatever platform he wants. It depends on the attention span of American media and people, but he might be able to pull off a platform more centre than the rest of the Republican party.
     
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