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Chit-Chat: Welcome to the Strategies & Movesets forum for Sun & Moon!

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AmourPearlShipper said:
You mean the 252 HP / 252 Def one? Even that variant can't really counter TW+SD Zard X variants, considering +2 Flare Blitz deals around 60% while Return can't OHKO without SR damage (but then again, Zard X is pretty easy to OHKO at 50% or even 75%)

As for bulky boosting variants, they need 2 DD boosts to OHKO and risk eating a +2 Flare Blitz.
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Mmmm interesting. My question tho is - if Return can OHKO with stealth rocks damage; does the recoil from flare blitz dealing 60 percent to Mega Altaria since Mega Zard X would be going first - compensate for that stealth rocks damage and allow it to be OHKO'd after the recoil?

Too lazy to touch cool cid calc today - sunset overdrive very fun
 
0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor counters Weavile and Bisharp.
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And your point is? 0/0 Blissey counters specs Skarmory lol.

Anyway alot of stuff needs def evs to counter stuff, you cant just rely on base stats all the time. In this case its relevant to Altaria.

AmourPearlShipper said:
I think you should read the definition of a counter. A counter needs to be able to switch in easily and force the opposing Pokemon out with the threat of an OHKO. Mega Altaria can't do that because a) +1, or even worse, +2 Flare Blitz hits it for massive damage, with the offensive variant being OHKOed after SR b) +0 Dragon Claw doesn't OHKO Zard X. You could mention Outrage, but the presence of Fairy-types and bulky Steels, such as Ferrothorn, limit its usefulness (especially on a bulky DD user).
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You're talking about Altaria like its only set is dd 4hp/0. It can run defensive sets with things like Cotton Guard (yes people do run this and it really works well) which **** all over ANY physical zard set (bar SD Zard but hardly anyone uses that and that particular set has 0 counters anyway). It can also run Roar and Pixilate Body Slams both of which cripple zard and stop its sweep, plus Flare Blitz recoil in conjunction with all of the above means;

1. Zard kills itself/becomes useless with SR up.
2. Altaria can come in, take the hit and Cotton Guard and Roost off any damage/on the switch. If zard tries and stats up it gets Roared out.
3. You can even put less evs into defense if you run cotton Guard which lets you wall on both ends of the spectrum rather comfortably.

Zard-Y however needs max/max sp.def and + to be defeated, thats the good thing about Mega Altaria though, you can tailor it for both sides of the spectrum. Mixed defensive spreads dont really work that well though tbh and compromise its walling/taking abilities.
 
I have a question... How does Sucker Punch work anyway? I mean, I do know how it works, but...
I ask this question because my friend and I were having a wifi battle. I had a Mega Mawile and my friend had Mega Kangaskhan, and we both used Sucker Punch at the same time/turn.
I expected it not to work, but somehow, Megaskhan moved first, and struck my Megawile two times with Sucker Punch. And then Megawile's Sucker Punch failed. :/
 
cos mega khan was faster. in a sucker punch vs sucker punch situation, the faster pokemon will hit and the slower sucker punch will fail. it hit twice cos of mega khan's parental bond if you didn't know.
 
halcyonic said:
cos mega khan was faster. in a sucker punch vs sucker punch situation, the faster pokemon will hit and the slower sucker punch will fail.
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That was my theory. It's nice to see someone confirming it. ^^

halcyonic said:
it hit twice cos of mega khan's parental bond if you didn't know.
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And yesh, I'm aware of that. ;)
 
Sucker punch is neat because it only works based on what your opponent does. It's priority +1, which means if they use any attack that's not priority, your sucker punch will work. If they use another +1 priority attack, (ie; sucker punch) speed comes into play. If your poke is faster, sucker punch works. If theirs is faster, their move will go and sucker punch will be left with no attack to follow it, meaning it fails.

Basically; sucker punch will always work if your target could hit you after it deals damage to them. It will never work, if there's not an attack from the target that could follow it.

Also, there's a guy in dis skype chat that's saying Cresselia is a M Salamence counter. I'm looking into it; but not so certain.
 
Polar Spectrum said:
Sucker punch is neat because it only works based on what your opponent does. It's priority +1, which means if they use any attack that's not priority, your sucker punch will work. If they use another +1 priority attack, (ie; sucker punch) speed comes into play. If your poke is faster, sucker punch works. If theirs is faster, their move will go and sucker punch will be left with no attack to follow it, meaning it fails.

Basically; sucker punch will always work if your target could hit you after it deals damage to them. It will never work, if there's not an attack from the target that could follow it.

Also, there's a guy in dis skype chat that's saying Cresselia is a M Salamence counter. I'm looking into it; but not so certain.
Click to expand...

Offensive Mega Salamence calcs:

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 118-140 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 224-268 (67.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cresselia can't really come in on a Dragon Dance-boosted Mega Salamence. It won't get to KO Salamence before it gets to do so itself.

Bulky DD Salamence can even use Cresselia as setup bait when it switches in:

0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 168 HP / 88 SpD Salamence: 108-128 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 88 SpD Salamence: 204-244 (54.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I don't really think it makes sense either, but here's his claim -

"If you want a strict counter for a strict 1vs1 scenario, here it is.

>252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Cresselia: 175-207 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
>252- SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 144-171 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
>84 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 248-296 (74.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cresselia hard counters the special set without any investment whatsoever. Then, it places physical Salamence in a really tight spot. You have Twave, Moonlight, Ice Beam, and something that P2 wishes it had: lefties recovery. Salamence can't gamble AT ALL. If Salamence used DD before you switched in, it ****s itself in fear because it needs to predict if you're going to use Twave or Ice Beam. If it subs and you use Ice Beam, it loses next turn. If it uses Return and you use Twave, then it's as good as dead. It can't brute force through you with mixed sets or prior damage. It can't **** around with Roost. It can't choose a niche move to beat you. Also, Salamence will ALWAYS lose to you if it received any prior damage (like SR).

But of course, in a REAL scenario, they're just going to switch out and bring their dedicated pursuit trapper to rape you lol"


^ The above statements and calculations are neither mine nor have I checked their accuracy.
 
I'd love to say defensive Clefable is a counter to DD Mega Mence but it is 2HKO'd by Return (unboosted, even with +1 it has Unaware); it can't be a check either since Standard defensive Clefable runs 252hp/252def+/4spd and Moonblast is only a 2HKO.

For fun, I decided to add a Choice Specs to Cresselia:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 544-644 (163.8 - 193.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And LO:
252+ SpA Life Orb Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 473-562 (142.4 - 169.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even so, this is still not a good Counter:
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cresselia: 220-261 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

A +1 will be a guaranteed 2HKO but I guess Cress can be a check (but who runs Specs/LO Cresselia nowadays? :P ) in this case.

The calcs are accurate but as said, M. Mence can always set up a Dragon Dance; depends how the situation is played out too (i.e. double switch, Cress switches in without Mence setting up, etc.).
 
Rhyperior, Skarm, Mega Aero, Zapdos seem the best counters to megamence, lando-t and whatnot check it though. It cant run all of Fire Blast, EQ, Outrage, Return on the DD set. It has 4 mss. Bronzong also is a great counter and check and very underated in the metagame.
 
PlatinumDude said:
I may have found something weird in here:

https://www.pokemonrubysapphire.com/en-ca/pokemon/starter-pokemon/ultimate-moves

Apparently, Blaziken gained Ice Punch in OR/AS. Could be useful for hitting those 4x Ice-weak Pokemon like Rayquaza or the occasional Landorus and Gliscor in Ubers.
Click to expand...

Sadly, that's not actually true. Serebii discovered Blaziken couldn't learn the move at all, so that's thrown out the window.

Also, apparently Adaptability Dragalge is available now as OR/AS's DexNav feature can allow capture of non-Hoenn Dex Pokemon with Hidden Abilities and one of the Pokemon he found was a Skrelp with Adaptability. That is something we all wanted ever since first discovering it had the ability.
 
Hikamaru said:
Sadly, that's not actually true. Serebii discovered Blaziken couldn't learn the move at all, so that's thrown out the window.

Also, apparently Adaptability Dragalge is available now as OR/AS's DexNav feature can allow capture of non-Hoenn Dex Pokemon with Hidden Abilities and one of the Pokemon he found was a Skrelp with Adaptability. That is something we all wanted ever since first discovering it had the ability.
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What bites now is that the Kalos fossils, Johto starters and Unova starters don't have their DW/Hidden Abilities legal yet. Kinda sad, since the Johto and Unova starters are gifts from Prof. Birch.
 
Zekrom said:
I wish that they'd release the HAs for the Kalos fossils.....Rock Head Tyrantrum would be sweet.

Btw, since ORAS is now officially out in most of the world, who do y'all think is gonna get hit by the ban hammer first?
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Me too, if Adaptability Dragalge is out now then i'd hope Rock Head Tyrantrum gets its time sometime soon.

Anyway, i'm not really a competitive battler, but some people have suggested that Mega Salamence will get the boot. Although I don't really think so - it does have more Speed than Mega Pinsir, but slightly less Attack and more Defense. But admittedly Mega Pinsir's typing is way worse. If Fairy-types didn't exist, I have a feeling Mega Salamence would be Mega Pinsir 2.0.
 
Speaking of Ubers, what do people think of Mega Rayquaza? It doesn't need a Mega Stone to Mega Evolve; it just needs to have Dragon Ascent to do so. This gives it the freedom to use items like Life Orb to jack up its offensive power or Lum Berry to shrug off status once.

Essentially, Mega Rayquaza is a bulkier, albeit slower, Attack Deoxys. It's still pretty fast, though.
 
Zekrom said:
Apparently Smogon is trying to decide whether to quickban Mega Mence or to suspect test it:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mega-salamence-considering-a-quick-ban.3522637/
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Based on what I'm seeing in the Smogon link there, I could likely see it being quick-banned because some of the users said they found it hard to counter and would need to train something specific just to get past it.

Definitely going to see Mega Salamence be the first banning of the OR/AS era.

PlatinumDude said:
Speaking of Ubers, what do people think of Mega Rayquaza? It doesn't need a Mega Stone to Mega Evolve; it just needs to have Dragon Ascent to do so. This gives it the freedom to use items like Life Orb to jack up its offensive power or Lum Berry to shrug off status once.

Essentially, Mega Rayquaza is a bulkier, albeit slower, Attack Deoxys. It's still pretty fast, though.
Click to expand...

I have to admit, this thing will be quite threatening in the fact it only needs a specific move and not a Mega Stone. It's like totally going to be broken, on top of its ability nerfing its Ice weakness to only 2x and removing the Rock weakness entirely.

srinator said:
Wait are you serious? No stone to mega evolve?! Hory ****
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Yup. It only needs to know Dragon Ascent to use its Mega.
 
Has anyone here tried Agility Mega Metagross? Yes, I know Mega Metagross' Speed is good, but it's still outsped by things like Greninja and Weavile. Since Agility already fixes Mega Metagross' Speed, it can afford to run Adamant. What are the typical EV spread(s) to use with Mega Agiligross in your opinion?
 
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