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Why does Game Freak insist on doing this?

Sweet Serenity

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    Honestly, I'm not too sure if this thread fits in Pokémon Gaming Central or Pokémon General, but I will try this one.

    One thing that seriously irks me about Pokémon is how the developers treat Regigigas, a Pokémon that I like and seriously want to use in battles one day. With a base stat total of 670 and the leader and creator of the other "Regi" Pokémon, Regigigas is a major legendary Pokémon on par with several of the box legendaries and other "trio masters" such as Ho-Oh and Lugia. However, Regigigas has been hindered with its Slow Start ability for years, which halves its Attack and Speed stat for 5 turns. Anybody experienced in battles knows that Pokémon very rarely last that long unless their role is to stall, which is what Regigigas is not designed to do. Even in Pokémon Legends: Arceus, a game where Pokémon abilities don't exist, they still found a way to hinder his stats by turning Slow Start into a status condition. Why do they insist on doing this? Did they think Regigigas would be too powerful? However, isn't that the point of major legendary Pokémon and trio master, to be overpowered? I don't see how it would be too overpowered anyway because, as Normal-type, the only STAB it could inflict would never be super effective, which I believe actually balances it, and with how competitive Pokémon has been power crept over the years, I believe Regigigas' 160 Attack stat would fit right in with his major legendary brethren if he didn't have Slow Start anymore. What's your opinion on all this?
     
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    I genuinely have wondered this for abit. And from what research ive done i cant find anything answers. Even like a in game lore reason or real life inspiration. Though i did find a weird fact that it shares a total stat of 670 with slaking and both have a hindering ability. Kinda neat
     
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    Suits Gaming Central better. Moved it over there. Deals with in-game mechanics and their effect on Regigigas.
     

    Sweet Serenity

    Advocate of Truth
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    I genuinely have wondered this for abit. And from what research ive done i cant find anything answers. Even like a in game lore reason or real life inspiration. Though i did find a weird fact that it shares a total stat of 670 with slaking and both have a hindering ability. Kinda neat

    The funny thing is I don't even think that his lore even mentions his Slow Start ability, nor is he portrayed as having a Slow Start in the anime. If so, then I completely missed it. Well, with Slaking it makes sense. Slaking is just your regular Pokémon and it having a 670 base stat total is just a gimmick, so it needs to be hindered by something. However, Regigigas is a full-blown legendary that is a leader of 5 minor legendaries. I really hope that, one day, Game Freak drops the whole Slow Start gimmick and give him a better ability.
     
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    I like Regigigas and I love its ability. I am probably more interested in lore rather than battles, so that could be why I am glad Regigigas has that ability: it's one of the very few cases where lore and the Pokémon itself are united. I love the idea that Regigigas is so big and so old that it requires it much time to adjust to properly battle. It gives the idea of an old robot having to make it's circuits work again property and it takes time. I am also glad they kept the ability in PLA because it was one of my fears: this ability is part of the Pokémon itself and it's not some competitive stuff, it's like a signature that makes sense in a Pokémon like Regigigas and to its story.
    Competitively, Regigigas was of very good usage in gen 8 competitive. It was in combo with Weezing with Neutralising gas, which had the effect to neutralise Regigigas' ability. Pretty cool indeed. So yeah, let's say that in competitive Regigigas had its moment and I am happy for that as well.
    I am glad for how they have been treating Regigigas, but I know few people would agree with me and I indeed see how Regigigas' ability pisses players.
     

    Sweet Serenity

    Advocate of Truth
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    I like Regigigas and I love its ability. I am probably more interested in lore rather than battles, so that could be why I am glad Regigigas has that ability: it's one of the very few cases where lore and the Pokémon itself are united. I love the idea that Regigigas is so big and so old that it requires it much time to adjust to properly battle. It gives the idea of an old robot having to make it's circuits work again property and it takes time. I am also glad they kept the ability in PLA because it was one of my fears: this ability is part of the Pokémon itself and it's not some competitive stuff, it's like a signature that makes sense in a Pokémon like Regigigas and to its story.
    Competitively, Regigigas was of very good usage in gen 8 competitive. It was in combo with Weezing with Neutralising gas, which had the effect to neutralise Regigigas' ability. Pretty cool indeed. So yeah, let's say that in competitive Regigigas had its moment and I am happy for that as well.
    I am glad for how they have been treating Regigigas, but I know few people would agree with me and I indeed see how Regigigas' ability pisses players.

    I understand where you're coming from because I love the lore as well, but I've actually never heard of Slow Start being part of Regigigas' lore though. Even still, Slow Start makes Regigigas pretty much unusable. Neutralizing Gas definitely made Regigigas somewhat useable in Doubles when paired with Weezing, but this was more so a niche or gimmicky combination rather than a staple one. That combination only works when Weezing is on the field with Regigigas. As soon as Weezing leaves, Slow Start kicks right back in. In Singles however, Regigigas is almost completely unusable because of Slow Start. Regigigas would literally be so much better if it simply didn't have this ability. I am hoping that he gets this ability removed in generation 9. It takes five turns for Slow Start to wear off. With generation 9, that would mark 5 generations since its debut. Perhaps Slow Start would be replaced after five generations? Sounds like a long shot, but I hope so!

    If the lore is that it is indeed old and needs a minute to get going…thats kinda funny but also believable i guess. Kinda weird though

    As long as I've been playing Pokémon, I have never heard of that being part of Regigigas' lore. In fact, I don't think Game Freak has ever mentioned anything regarding why Regigigas "can't get it going." Even in the anime, whenever Regigigas wakes up, it instantly goes on a violent rampage, seemingly at full strength from the start. If that's "slow start" in the anime, then I don't even want imagine his full power! It also doesn't make sense because there are Pokémon that are older than Regigigas that don't suffer from a slow start, such as practically every fossil Pokémon. The only closest thing is Archeops and its "Defeatist" ability, but that has actually been portrayed in the anime as Archeops being too weak to fly after taking too many hits. Lore-wise, all I know is that Regigigas created all the Regis, pulled continents with ropes, and went into a deep slumber.
     
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    Never viewed Regigigas as a "major" legendary, personally. Might be a result of its battle capabilities or lack of story prominence. Usually creates two strong box art legendaries, one other strong, potentially third version box art legendary (Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Giratina, Kyurem, Zygarde, Necrozma, Eternatus), and then a mixed bag of lower stat legendaries. Places Regigigas in the third category with the 580-600 total base stat Pokemon. Paid for its 70-90 extra points with its awful ability, much like Slaking.

    Do not underestimate Regigigas's power without its ability, also. Tied for third highest Attack in Generation 4. Lost only to Attack Form Deoxys (zero defenses) and Rampardos (low Speed). Beat the usual box art legendary spread of 150 offense / 90ish speed. Distributed its stats a bit better (less Special Attack). Cannot ignore its solid signature move either: Crush Grip. Reached 121 power (later 120) against full health targets.

    Noticed something else about its moves, also. Knows several flinching moves: Zen Headbutt, Headbutt (in Heartgold/Soulsilver), and Iron Head. Probably played it safe in the face of base 160 Attack STAB Headbutts with good Speed. (Note: Removed Headbutt in Generation 8. Replaced it with the slightly weaker Stomp.)

    As for why keep the ability today: Became its identity. Remembers Pokemon like Aegislash for its Stance Change, Morpeko for its Hangry Mode, and Arceus for its type changing plates. Cannot completely remove that without giving it a new form (unlikely). Could buff the ability a bit, to maybe only 25%. Witnessed some willingness to balance abilities, with things like Gale Wings's nerf, Unnerve's buff, and even Gengar's loss of Levitate. Indirectly buffed it with abilities like Neutralizing Gas, as mentioned earlier.
     
    Last edited:

    Sweet Serenity

    Advocate of Truth
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    Never viewed Regigigas as a "major" legendary, personally. Might be a result of its battle capabilities or lack of story prominence. Usually creates two strong box art legendaries, one other strong, potentially third version box art legendary (Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Giratina, Kyurem, Zygarde, Necrozma, Eternatus), and then a mixed bag of lower stat legendaries. Places Regigigas in the third category with the 580-600 total base stat Pokemon. Paid for its 70-90 extra points with its awful ability, much like Slaking.

    Do not underestimate Regigigas's power without its ability, also. Tied for third highest Attack in Generation 4. Lost only to Attack Form Deoxys (zero defenses) and Rampardos (low Speed). Beat the usual box art legendary spread of 150 offense / 90ish speed. Distributed its stats a bit better (less Special Attack). Cannot ignore its solid signature move either: Crush Grip. Reached 121 power (later 120) against full health targets.

    Noticed something else about its moves, also. Knows several flinching moves: Zen Headbutt, Headbutt (in Heartgold/Soulsilver), and Iron Head. Probably played it safe in the face of base 160 Attack STAB Headbutts with good Speed. (Note: Removed Headbutt in Generation 8. Replaced it with the slightly weaker Stomp.)

    As for why keep the ability today: Became its identity. Remembers Pokemon like Aegislash for its Stance Change, Morpeko for its Hangry Mode, and Arceus for its type changing plates. Cannot completely remove that without giving it a new form (unlikely). Could buff the ability a bit, to maybe only 25%. Witnessed some willingness to balance abilities, with things like Gale Wings's nerf, Unnerve's buff, and even Gengar's loss of Levitate. Indirectly buffed it with abilities like Neutralizing Gas, as mentioned earlier.

    Regigigas checks every box for being a major legendary Pokémon. Regigigas has a stat total that exceeds 600 (not equal to or lower) and is the leader of its own group of minor legendary Pokémon, much like Lugia and Ho-Oh. This also includes Pokémon that have the ability to fuse with other legendary Pokémon to get a base stat total higher than 600 such as Calyrex and Necrozma. Not every major legendary appears on a box. Mewtwo, for example, does not appear on the cover of any game, and neither does Zygarde, Eternatus, or Calyrex. Mewtwo also played no part in Pokémon Red, Blue, and Yellow's story, as it's 100% possible to complete the game without ever coming across Mewtwo or knowing of his existence. Also, Suicune appears on the cover of Pokémon Crystal and is a minor legendary with a base stat total less than 600, yet, it had more of a story impact than Mewtwo. However, I do understand that Mewtwo would likely be generation I's box legend if they didn't use the starters instead. Thus, story doesn't really influence a Pokémon's status as a legendary. Instead, it indicates that being a box legendary simply means it plays a major role in the story. As a result, in my personal opinion, I think the only thing that stops Regigigas from being a box legendary (other than Slow Start) is because it doesn't play a part in the game's main storyline.

    Pretty much every game that Regigigas is in requires all the Regis to be in the player's party. With that, you would assume that this Pokémon would be and should be very strong. Yet, somehow, the Pokémon that requires three legendaries (five in Pokémon Sword and Shield) to obtain is somehow weaker than them all because of his ability. That makes no sense to me. The only thing that is truly preventing it from reaching its full potential is its ability Slow Start. Slow Start actually causes it to function much worse than a minor legendary, as it makes Regigigas have only an 80 Attack stat and 50 Speed stat, which makes it extremely unusable, especially in Singles. Literally, the only Pokémon it can compete with at that level when Slow Start is activated are those that aren't fully-evolved, and even then, quite a few middle evolutions outclass it such as Kadabra, Haunter, Dragonair, Porygon2, Drakloak, etc. That's horrible for a legendary-Pokémon-group leader. The thing about Slaking though is that it is meant to be a gimmick because no regular Pokémon is meant to have a base stat total on par with major legendaries. Thus, the Truant ability exists to make Slaking barely functional.

    As a leader of an entire minor legendary group, no reason exists for Regigigas to be hindered by Slow Start. I also wouldn't underestimate his power either without his ability. He would definitely be very good, but out of all the major legendaries, he would do the least amount of damage naturally because he can't hit anything super effectively with STAB, as he's the only Normal-type legendary Pokémon to date if you don't count Mythical Pokémon as legendary, (which I normally do to be honest). Ironically, I think the fact that it is Normal-type actually balances it more than having Slow Start. Having Slow Start cut 25% of its Attack and Speed would make Regigigas basically have 125 Attack and 75 Speed. That would actually make it more usable, as it would function more like a strong regular Pokémon or a slow minor legendary, but I feel that based on how Regigigas is obtained and his status as a group leader of five other legendary Pokémon should result in Regigigas being much stronger than that. I feel a good ability for him would be one that allows him to slightly deal more super-effective damage (similar to Expert Belt) if it hits a Pokémon with a Rock, Ice, Steel, Electric, or Dragon-type move, the same types based on the Regis it created. You wouldn't have to change its form for that either.
     
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    Disagrees on story having no bearing on its status as a legendary. Pumps them certain legendaries with more base stat points than others. Consider battle facilities and ranked modes as well. Typically restricts mythicals and some legendaries. Consists of Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma, Zacian, Zamazenta, Eternatus, and Calyrex for the latter group. Holds these legendary Pokemon to a different standard. Excludes Regigigas. Never intended it to be a major legendary. (Concedes your point on Suicune not having amazing stats, despite being prominent in the story and on a box. Never planned to even produce Crystal, however.)

    Agrees on Regigigas deserving more, based on in-game mechanics and lore. Should be rewarded for collecting all the Regis. Paid too high a cost for its stats instead. Stings even more considering Heatran and Cresselia appearing in that same generation. Imagine 600 base stat Regigigas with an ability like Water Absorb. (Dares not ask for a unique Fighting immunity ability.) Might have actually accomplished something.

    Sidenote: Buffed Regigigas slightly over the years through moves. Had very few answers for Ghosts (20 power Knock Off and Fling) in Generation 4. Added Payback in Generation 5, Darkest Lariat in Generation 8, and Protect in Generation 8. Why would they not give it Protect until now? Gross. (Does not really solve the problem, though. Invites defeat by giving your opponent free, obvious setup turns.)

    Likes your ability idea, also. Lacks a Dragon move to take advantage of that ability, however. Could justify Dragon Claw with Regidrago being a thing now.

    Perhaps, alternatively, keep Regigigas's ability as-is, but keep the timer ticking upon switching out? Sacrifices momentum for power later. Creates a unique tradeoff. Might mindgame your opponent into expecting Regigigas first too.
     
    I completely understand arguments against this in the modern day. Easy to assume that originally Regigigas was seen as too strong and given an ability to help balance that a bit, but nowadays there are so many crazy strong Pokémon competing with it that don't have such major drawbacks to usage. Guess they kept it because it's almost part of its lore at this point as a giant golem (large, heavy, slow), but no other species gets similar treatment despite some falling in similar categories too. I feel they could balance it in other ways.
     
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    Game Freak is very reluctant when it comes to changing certain things. I get the point of Regigigas and Archeops getting a harmful Ability because at the moment they were introduced they would have been broken without that. Nowadays, however, it feels rather excessive since we've seen plenty of broken Pokémon doing broken things and getting away with it (some were eventually fixed/balanced out, some not)

    I wouldn't remove the Ability because it's part of Regigigas' identity and lore. I would, however slightly modify it to make it not so harmful. They could change the Attack/Speed drop to 0.7/0.75 instead of 0.5; or keep it at 0.5 but make it only affect Speed, or lower the turn count from 5 to 3.
     
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    I like to assume its Slow Start ability was somewhat of a hint to how old it is and that it needs some time to get going again. However, I also think that Regigigas could do well with a treatment similar to Zygarde with Power Construct. Slow Start remains its trademark ability. But through some ingame means the player could be able to get a different (maybe even useful) ability.
     

    Sweet Serenity

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    Disagrees on story having no bearing on its status as a legendary. Pumps them certain legendaries with more base stat points than others. Consider battle facilities and ranked modes as well. Typically restricts mythicals and some legendaries. Consists of Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma, Zacian, Zamazenta, Eternatus, and Calyrex for the latter group. Holds these legendary Pokemon to a different standard. Excludes Regigigas. Never intended it to be a major legendary. (Concedes your point on Suicune not having amazing stats, despite being prominent in the story and on a box. Never planned to even produce Crystal, however.)

    I personally wouldn't use the argument that Game Freak determines major legendaries regarding their ban status in battle facilities and ranked battles. The problem with it is that they ban all different kinds of legendaries, no matter their stats. For example, battle facilities also restrict Pokémon such as Cosmog, a Pokémon with a 200 base stat total, Cosmoem, a Pokémon with a 400 base stat total, and every "mythical" Pokémon. What I find interesting about that is despite mythical Pokémon typically having a base stat total of 600, many minor legendary Pokémon with 600 stat totals or non-legendary Pokémon with 600 base stat totals that fans often call "pseudo-legendaries" are still allowed in. In fact, some mythical Pokémon even have base stat totals less than 600 such as Keldeo and Phione, but they have always been banned. I can only assume Cosmog and Cosmoem are banned because they evolve into actual major legendaries, but they're still not major legendaries until they fully evolve, which definitely won't happen in the middle of a competitive battle. In that case, why ban them? Also, Pokémon such as Necrozma and Calyrex are also typically banned in even their base forms despite their base forms having a 600 and 500 base stat total respectively. Thus, it doesn't sound like the developers are actually holding these Pokémon to a different standard. If anything, it shows that their logic regarding banning Pokémon from certain competitions is questionable at best. The primary reason Regigigias was always allowed in battle facilities and ranked battles is because its ability Slow Start made it weak enough to compete. As a Normal-type that can't hit anything super effectively with STAB combined with an Attack and Speed stat halved to 80 and 50 respectively, its offensive strength with Slow Start is literally around the same level or maybe even a bit lower than a fully-evolved early route rodent Pokémon like Raticate or Watchog. If Regigigas didn't have Slow Start, it would have been banned as well.

    Agrees on Regigigas deserving more, based on in-game mechanics and lore. Should be rewarded for collecting all the Regis. Paid too high a cost for its stats instead. Stings even more considering Heatran and Cresselia appearing in that same generation. Imagine 600 base stat Regigigas with an ability like Water Absorb. (Dares not ask for a unique Fighting immunity ability.) Might have actually accomplished something.

    A Regigigas with 600 base stats and Water Absorb ability would definitely be better, but more niche, as it would mostly be used to protect Rock, Ground, or Fire Pokémon on its team. I still believe Regigigas deserves much better.

    Sidenote: Buffed Regigigas slightly over the years through moves. Had very few answers for Ghosts (20 power Knock Off and Fling) in Generation 4. Added Payback in Generation 5, Darkest Lariat in Generation 8, and Protect in Generation 8. Why would they not give it Protect until now? Gross. (Does not really solve the problem, though. Invites defeat by giving your opponent free, obvious setup turns.)

    I agree with all this. In fact, the only way to truly make Regigigas useable in Singles is to use Baton Pass, perhaps with a Pokémon such as Ninjask or Blaziken. Boost Attack by two stages with Swords Dance, survive an attack with a Focus Sash if need be, avoid another attack with Protect or Detect, increase Speed automatically at the end of the turn with the Speed Boost ability, Baton Pass on the next turn, and switch into Regigigas. Even though Slow Start would kick in, Regigigas should have the stats that it would normally have without Slow Start (or better depending on how many times you boosted), and it would be even better when the Slow Start wears off. However, a good player could easily predict this play because it's too obvious. Also, I never knew that Regigigas was never allowed to learn Protect until generation 8 though. With that, it sounds like Game Freak almost didn't want you to even attempt to pass the time for Slow Start, as if they wanted Regigigas to be bad.

    Likes your ability idea, also. Lacks a Dragon move to take advantage of that ability, however. Could justify Dragon Claw with Regidrago being a thing now.

    I strongly agree with this as well. Dragon Claw is great for Regigigas, but I think Outrage suits it more, since its lore says it is known to rampage when awakened from its slumber. It should be able to learn both.

    Perhaps, alternatively, keep Regigigas's ability as-is, but keep the timer ticking upon switching out? Sacrifices momentum for power later. Creates a unique tradeoff. Might mindgame your opponent into expecting Regigigas first too.

    I don't think Regigigas needs Slow Start at all. However, if it must keep it for the reason you said or other reasons, why not give it a hidden ability as well? That way, for the people that claim to want Regigigas to keep Slow Start because of the lore, it can keep Slow Start, but it should also have a hidden ability that the player can change with an Ability Patch if they're into using it competitively. That way, everybody wins.
     

    Palamon

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    It's likely to balance it because it's got a high bst. Regigigas isn't the only pokemon like this
    Slaking has Truant which only lets it attack once every other turn.

    I know it's a legendary, but I suppose gf wanted it to not be too broken.
     
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    I know it's a legendary, but I suppose gf wanted it to not be too broken.

    That was certainly the intention. It's just weird how they don't want Regigigas to be broken but they had no issue creating complete nonsense like Mega Rayquaza.

    Even regular Kyogre and Groudon have the same BST as Regigigas yet they have amazing Abilities.
     

    Duck

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    That was certainly the intention. It's just weird how they don't want Regigigas to be broken but they had no issue creating complete nonsense like Mega Rayquaza.

    Even regular Kyogre and Groudon have the same BST as Regigigas yet they have amazing Abilities.

    I think it's a question of context.

    Groudon and Kyogre are supposed to be a little bit broken because they're box legendaries.

    Regigigas on the other hand, came out the same generation we had the P/S split, the first generation with WiFi trading / battling and since we had the first official tournament 2 years after DP release, I think it's not farfetched to say that it was the first generation GameFreak started to consider how things would affect "the meta".

    So it wouldn't surprise me if Regigigas ended up being more nerfed than it needed to be, and Game Freak is just hesistant to buff a legendary. Specially one that has a not insignificant use in the current meta due to Neutralizing Gas.

    There is a nonzero chance that if they buffed Regigigas, it'd end up basically being centralizing. Because it's a Pokemon with only one weakness and enormous bulk, bulkier than Zacian Crowned even, with the same base attack.

    I personally wouldn't use the argument that Game Freak determines major legendaries regarding their ban status in battle facilities and ranked battles. The problem with it is that they ban all different kinds of legendaries, no matter their stats. For example, battle facilities also restrict Pokémon such as Cosmog, a Pokémon with a 200 base stat total, Cosmoem, a Pokémon with a 400 base stat total, and every "mythical" Pokémon.

    What I find interesting about that is despite mythical Pokémon typically having a base stat total of 600, many minor legendary Pokémon with 600 stat totals or non-legendary Pokémon with 600 base stat totals that fans often call "pseudo-legendaries" are still allowed in. In fact, some mythical Pokémon even have base stat totals less than 600 such as Keldeo and Phione, but they have always been banned. I can only assume Cosmog and Cosmoem are banned because they evolve into actual major legendaries, but they're still not major legendaries until they fully evolve, which definitely won't happen in the middle of a competitive battle. In that case, why ban them?

    Banning Cosmog and Cosmoem is probably just a case of "ban the entire family". A lore reason, if not a game design reason.

    Mythicals are, by and large, event only. Banning them evens the playing field, since if it turns out a mythical is great it puts people who couldn't get the event at a disadvantage.

    Pseudo Legendaries, on the other hand, are relatively easy to find, and often have their own fair share of disadvantages that evens the playing field.
    - Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp (as well as their megas) are quad weak to Ice, which is relatively common offensively
    - Tyranitar is quad weak to Fighting (which isn't uncommon either) and forces you to use Sand, so you can't just slap it into any team
    - Hydreigon and Kommo-o are quad weak to Fairy (which is very much common)
    - Goodra is just kinda meh in general

    All that's left is Metagross (which isn't used a lot) and Dragapult which is broken, yeah, but not centralizingly broken like Zacian-Crowned or Kyogre-Primal are in VGC (which is pretty much the only meta GameFreak cares about).

    Also, Pokémon such as Necrozma and Calyrex are also typically banned in even their base forms despite their base forms having a 600 and 500 base stat total respectively. Thus, it doesn't sound like the developers are actually holding these Pokémon to a different standard. If anything, it shows that their logic regarding banning Pokémon from certain competitions is questionable at best.

    Or, they're just going with the simpler route. "If we think any form of this Pokémon could be broken, ban all forms".
    Saves time and making one Pokemon unavailable is less worse than finding out that that form is also problematic for some other reason and now you have to ban something a lot of people were using.

    People in general are more upset when they lose an option they thought they had, than when they just never get the option to begin with.

    In fact, the only way to truly make Regigigas useable in Singles is to use Baton Pass, perhaps with a Pokémon such as Ninjask or Blaziken. Boost Attack by two stages with Swords Dance, survive an attack with a Focus Sash if need be, avoid another attack with Protect or Detect, increase Speed automatically at the end of the turn with the Speed Boost ability, Baton Pass on the next turn, and switch into Regigigas. Even though Slow Start would kick in, Regigigas should have the stats that it would normally have without Slow Start (or better depending on how many times you boosted), and it would be even better when the Slow Start wears off. However, a good player could easily predict this play because it's too obvious. Also, I never knew that Regigigas was never allowed to learn Protect until generation 8 though. With that, it sounds like Game Freak almost didn't want you to even attempt to pass the time for Slow Start, as if they wanted Regigigas to be bad.

    I think it's important to keep in mind that Game Freak, by and large, doesn't care about Singles due to a variety of reasons (at most, they only care about Singles in the context of the main campaign). If Game Freak is thinking of a meta for balance reasons, that meta is VGC Doubles and if the Pokemon suffer or break other metas they don't really care.

    And Regigigas is doing pretty well in VGC Doubles, so as far as Game Freak is concerned, Regigigas is a perfectly usable Pokemon.
     

    pkmin3033

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    Of all the things this topic could possibly be about, it's about Regigigas? I find that hilarious. It's almost clickbait...I certainly came in here expecting something else. xD

    Although I honestly do agree - it might be thematically appropriate to the lore behind it, but Slow Start is an infuriating ability and Regigigas really does deserve better. There are already plenty of broken Legendaries in the games, one more isn't going to hurt. In fact, it would be more thematically appropriate for Regigigas to be the best Regi to use, all things considered.
     

    Sweet Serenity

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    "Banning Cosmog and Cosmoem is probably just a case of "ban the entire family". A lore reason, if not a game design reason."

    Lore is 100% irrelevant to competitive Pokémon. Lore only matters in storyline casual play-throughs.

    "Mythicals are, by and large, event only. Banning them evens the playing field, since if it turns out a mythical is great it puts people who couldn't get the event at a disadvantage."

    The problems with this argument are that, one, Game Freak is slowly but surely ending the trend of mythicals being event-only. Mew and Jirachi are now often given out to players that have specific save data from other games, Magearna could be obtained in-game in gen 7 by simply scanning a QR code, which can be found online, Deoxys can be obtained in Pokémon Omega Ruby and Sapphire through the storyline, Melmetal can be obtained by simply playing Pokémon GO and transferring a Pokémon from GO to HOME, Keldeo can be found in the Crown Tundra in Pokémon Sword and Shield DLC, and Arceus can be obtained through the storyline of Pokémon Legends: Arecus. With that, they could allow mythicals in competitions that could be obtained easier such as via storyline or save data at the very least. Two, even if you don't get the chance to obtain them, mythicals are still relatively easy to trade for. In fact, that's how I obtained most of my mythical Pokémon and I have almost all of them.

    "Pseudo Legendaries, on the other hand, are relatively easy to find, and often have their own fair share of disadvantages that evens the playing field.
    - Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp (as well as their megas) are quad weak to Ice, which is relatively common offensively
    - Tyranitar is quad weak to Fighting (which isn't uncommon either) and forces you to use Sand, so you can't just slap it into any team
    - Hydreigon and Kommo-o are quad weak to Fairy (which is very much common)
    - Goodra is just kinda meh in general

    All that's left is Metagross (which isn't used a lot) and Dragapult which is broken, yeah, but not centralizingly broken like Zacian-Crowned or Kyogre-Primal are in VGC (which is pretty much the only meta GameFreak cares about).
    "

    The thing is, ironically, pretty much every non-legendary and/or mythical Pokémon with a base 600 stat total is broken in some form or fashion, save a few. Dragonite has Multiscale, which halves damage at full HP, allowing Dragonite to easily set up with Dragon Dance and sweep, Salamance has Intimidate, which is a great ability, especially in Doubles, is a deadly sweeper, special or physical, even more so physically with Moxie. In any game that would allow Mega Evolution, Salamance only gets better. Tyranitar is probably the best Sand setter in the game and is so tanky during Dynamax that it could often survive its double weakness to Fighting at least once, and would only get better in games that allow Mega Evolution, Metagross probably isn't broken now because it doesn't have much going for it in today's competitive game, but in games that allow Mega Evolution, Mega Metagross is a monster in all formats, Dragapult is broken because it has so much going for it, where it is one of the fastest Pokémon of all time, has good coverage options, can be used effectively as both a physical or special sweeper, and can attack through screens and Substitute with its Infiltrator ability. The only ones that truly aren't broken are Hydreigon, Kommo-o, and Goodra. Hydreigon used to be extremely broken, but existence of Fairy types alone completely murdered Hydreigon's chances of being good again, which is crazy. Kommo-o is just a victim of existing in the wrong times, otherwise it would be broken as well because of its powerful signature moves alone and perhaps the best stat-boosting move in the game, Clangorous Soul. However, Clangorous Soul paired with Psych Up in Doubles is actually a pretty decent but gimmicky combo for boosts, but it's not exactly game breaking enough to be considered broken. The only way Goodra truly shines is defensively, mostly in Singles as a specially bulky attacker and as a switch in to powder moves with Sap Sipper. Overall though, I could easily say that most "pseudo-legendary" Pokémon are better than most mythical Pokémon. Thus, there is no real reason to ban most of them.

    "Or, they're just going with the simpler route. "If we think any form of this Pokémon could be broken, ban all forms".
    Saves time and making one Pokemon unavailable is less worse than finding out that that form is also problematic for some other reason and now you have to ban something a lot of people were using.

    People in general are more upset when they lose an option they thought they had, than when they just never get the option to begin with."

    I still don't think that's a good reason to ban those forms. It doesn't make any sense to ban a Pokémon simply because they assume that it could be broken. Landorus-T is perhaps the most broken Pokémon in competitive Pokémon and it's a minor legendary that has never been banned. Thus, they clearly don't care about what's becomes broken. Evidently, the only reason the other Pokémon are banned is because they have high base stat totals. It wouldn't make any sense to ban a 600 base-stat-total Pokémon when several others are legal with the same stat total, or a 500 base-stat-total Pokémon that is pretty much the average stat total for all fully-evolved Pokémon.

    "I think it's important to keep in mind that Game Freak, by and large, doesn't care about Singles due to a variety of reasons (at most, they only care about Singles in the context of the main campaign). If Game Freak is thinking of a meta for balance reasons, that meta is VGC Doubles and if the Pokemon suffer or break other metas they don't really care.

    And Regigigas is doing pretty well in VGC Doubles, so as far as Game Freak is concerned, Regigigas is a perfectly usable Pokemon."

    The only way to truly utilize Regigigas effectively in the VCG is with a Neutralizing Gas Weezing, which can easily be countered by getting rid of Weezing. That's not a difficult feat by any means, especially in Doubles because of double teaming, which is why it's barely used. I wouldn't count that as doing well. Instead, I could call that way too niche or gimmicky even because it's definitely something that people would attempt just to see Regigigas do well, but it definitely won't win much against the meta, which is why it doesn't last. Regigigas is only used less than 1% of the time in the VCG Doubles meta, and there is a reason for that. Soon as Weezing faints, Slow Start kicks right in, becomes super weak, and could easily be double-teamed by the opposing player. It also won't be able to stall effectively for Slow Start because of the fast-paced nature of Doubles.

    Yes, I understand that Doubles is more important because the Pokémon World Championships are double battles. However, not every competitive player cares about VCG Doubles. Single battling is still the most popular way to play competitive Pokémon, whether on Game Freak's servers or unofficially in other places such as Pokémon Showdown. Game Freak also hosts official Singles competitions as well, which I have competed in many myself. Game Freak also still hosts their ranked battle seasons for Singles (and Doubles) in Pokémon Sword and Shield every month, which statistically has a bigger player-base than the Doubles despite the VCG centering around Doubles. In that sense, it wouldn't hurt for Game Freak to make certain Pokémon more functional in all formats to appease every type of competitive player. Personally, I believe that competitive Pokémon should have official world championship games for both Singles and Doubles.
     

    Duck

    🦆 quack quack
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    Lore is 100% irrelevant to competitive Pokémon. Lore only matters in storyline casual play-throughs.

    Sure, but Game Freak isn't "Competitive Pokémon", whatever that might be. Game Freak is a company made of people that might very well care about lore in some level.

    The problems with this argument are that, one, Game Freak is slowly but surely ending the trend of mythicals being event-only. Mew and Jirachi are now often given out to players that have specific save data from other games, Magearna could be obtained in-game in gen 7 by simply scanning a QR code, which can be found online, Deoxys can be obtained in Pokémon Omega Ruby and Sapphire through the storyline, Melmetal can be obtained by simply playing Pokémon GO and transferring a Pokémon from GO to HOME, Keldeo can be found in the Crown Tundra in Pokémon Sword and Shield DLC, and Arceus can be obtained through the storyline of Pokémon Legends: Arecus. With that, they could allow mythicals in competitions that could be obtained easier such as via storyline or save data at the very least. Two, even if you don't get the chance to obtain them, mythicals are still relatively easy to trade for. In fact, that's how I obtained most of my mythical Pokémon and I have almost all of them.

    OK, but being easier to get now, doesn't mean that they were easy to get in the past. Game Freak has historically cared, at least to some extent, about availability when doing bans including banning Gmax Pokémon that were available in the game for the first half of 2020 because they were just rare.

    Maybe they'll change their mind going forwards, but for now "they're rare-ish, better ban" is as good a hypothesis as any.

    The thing is, ironically, pretty much every non-legendary and/or mythical Pokémon with a base 600 stat total is broken in some form or fashion, save a few. Dragonite has Multiscale, which halves damage at full HP, allowing Dragonite to easily set up with Dragon Dance and sweep, Salamance has Intimidate, which is a great ability, especially in Doubles, is a deadly sweeper, special or physical, even more so physically with Moxie. In any game that would allow Mega Evolution, Salamance only gets better. Tyranitar is probably the best Sand setter in the game and is so tanky during Dynamax that it could often survive its double weakness to Fighting at least once, and would only get better in games that allow Mega Evolution, Metagross probably isn't broken now because it doesn't have much going for it in today's competitive game, but in games that allow Mega Evolution, Mega Metagross is a monster in all formats, Dragapult is broken because it has so much going for it, where it is one of the fastest Pokémon of all time, has good coverage options, can be used effectively as both a physical or special sweeper, and can attack through screens and Substitute with its Infiltrator ability. The only ones that truly aren't broken are Hydreigon, Kommo-o, and Goodra. Hydreigon used to be extremely broken, but existence of Fairy types alone completely murdered Hydreigon's chances of being good again, which is crazy. Kommo-o is just a victim of existing in the wrong times, otherwise it would be broken as well because of its powerful signature moves alone and perhaps the best stat-boosting move in the game, Clangorous Soul. However, Clangorous Soul paired with Psych Up in Doubles is actually a pretty decent but gimmicky combo for boosts, but it's not exactly game breaking enough to be considered broken. The only way Goodra truly shines is defensively, mostly in Singles as a specially bulky attacker and as a switch in to powder moves with Sap Sipper. Overall though, I could easily say that most "pseudo-legendary" Pokémon are better than most mythical Pokémon. Thus, there is no real reason to ban most of them.

    Okay, but Dragonite, Salamence, Tyranitar and Metagross might very well be broken in Singles just aren't used that often in Doubles.
    In fact, according to Pikalytics, they're all used less often than Regigigas, which by your own account is "niche".

    From GF's perspective they're not broken.

    I still don't think that's a good reason to ban those forms. It doesn't make any sense to ban a Pokémon simply because they assume that it could be broken. Landorus-T is perhaps the most broken Pokémon in competitive Pokémon and it's a minor legendary that has never been banned. Thus, they clearly don't care about what's becomes broken. Evidently, the only reason the other Pokémon are banned is because they have high base stat totals. It wouldn't make any sense to ban a 600 base-stat-total Pokémon when several others are legal with the same stat total, or a 500 base-stat-total Pokémon that is pretty much the average stat total for all fully-evolved Pokémon.

    And it might not be a good reason, but it's certainly a plausible reason.

    People in general are more prone to do less work if possible (such as just copy and pasting past ban lists, or just keying the ban list to Pokedex / Nat Dex number) and historically fans have, at worst, more or less answered to said bans with a lukewarm "ehh, that's a bit weird, isn't it?" and not made much of a fuss.

    Just banning everything altogether is easier for them at the end of the day.

    The only way to truly utilize Regigigas effectively in the VCG is with a Neutralizing Gas Weezing, which can easily be countered by getting rid of Weezing. That's not a difficult feat by any means, especially in Doubles because of double teaming, which is why it's barely used. I wouldn't count that as doing well. Instead, I could call that way too niche or gimmicky even because it's definitely something that people would attempt just to see Regigigas do well, but it definitely won't win much against the meta, which is why it doesn't last. Regigigas is only used less than 1% of the time in the VCG Doubles meta, and there is a reason for that. Soon as Weezing faints, Slow Start kicks right in, becomes super weak, and could easily be double-teamed by the opposing player. It also won't be able to stall effectively for Slow Start because of the fast-paced nature of Doubles.

    Yup, and that's a lot better than it was in past generations. You give a Pokemon that isn't broken a chance of usage with enough strategy while it's not centralizing enough that you need to have an answer, or just strong enough that deploying it first is an insta-win button.

    The fact that you can use Pokemon with strong nerfs like Regigigas with enough strategy, even if only on low ladder, is a positive. And since Game Freak has decided that Regigigas is potentially problematic, they're likely happy enough that it has a bit of a niche already.

    Yes, I understand that Doubles is more important because the Pokémon World Championships are double battles. However, not every competitive player cares about VCG Doubles. Single battling is still the most popular way to play competitive Pokémon, whether on Game Freak's servers or unofficially in other places such as Pokémon Showdown. Game Freak also hosts official Singles competitions as well, which I have competed in many myself. Game Freak also still hosts their ranked battle seasons for Singles (and Doubles) in Pokémon Sword and Shield every month, which statistically has a bigger player-base than the Doubles despite the VCG centering around Doubles. In that sense, it wouldn't hurt for Game Freak to make certain Pokémon more functional in all formats to appease every type of competitive player. Personally, I believe that competitive Pokémon should have official world championship games for both Singles and Doubles.

    It probably wouldn't hurt, yes, but it's just not really much of a money maker so it's very much not a priority.
    Coupled with the fact that the Pokemon teams are pretty much almost always working on a new game / DLC that the fact that Singles has fallen to the wayside is hardly surprising.

    Could Game Freak buff Regigigas? Yeah, probably.

    But it's a change that gives them more work (figure out the appropriate change with testing, code it in, make a game patch, consider if it now needs to be banned from VGC / Battle Tower, etc.) for the ill-defined gain of "some fans would like it" and possible loss of "it's gonna be broken and other fans are gonna go bonkers mad."
     
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