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  #1    
Old March 18th, 2016 (1:47 PM). Edited 3 Weeks Ago by Nah.
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In light of the Round Table becoming not dead again I thought I'd ask for a bit of feedback so we can keep the activity going strong and possibly get more people to post in the section. Post your praise, concerns, criticisms, ideas, etc. If you don't really post in the Round Table, why not/what would get you to?

edit: hi this can be posted in at any time jsyk
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Old March 18th, 2016 (2:02 PM). Edited March 18th, 2016 by Zoroark Cutie.
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I personally don't post in the RoundTable and it's mostly because a lot of threads end up in heated arguments. I do lurk around there from time to time, and I get that arguments are supposed to happen, but I feel like a lot of times the arguments get too heated. Another reason why I don't post in it is that a lot of topics are usually controversial ones, to the point where I don't feel comfortable even posting in them seeing how it's going to start an argument no matter what side I am on, but it's something that the RoundTable is sorta supposed to be so.
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Old March 18th, 2016 (2:15 PM).
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Originally Posted by Pancham Cutie View Post
I personally don't post in the RoundTable and it's mostly because a lot of threads end up in heated arguments. I do lurk around there from time to time, and I get that arguments are supposed to happen, but I feel like a lot of times the arguments get too heated. Another reason why I don't post in it is that a lot of topics are usually controversial ones, to the point where I don't feel comfortable even posting in them seeing how it's going to start an argument no matter what side I am on.
If arguments about Pokémon can get heated, I think it's safe to assume that a section with a nature like The Round Table will get heated arguments from time to time. About the controversial topics: Controversy is expected to happen in debates, because for every debate, there are two sides of the story, which is the main purpose of debates per se.

The only piece of feedback I can think of, is, in terms of moderation; I think everything's going smooth. The section itself requires a thick skin from part of the moderators. I'd encourage the mods to keep it as it is, keep an eye on people that instead of debating, posts just to discredit the intellectual grade of the threads. Maybe a tough hand on off-topic posts is needed, I'm not sure.
My idea is that every debate should be encouraged and let people know that they can debate whatever they want, as long as they're respectful towards other members.
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Old March 18th, 2016 (2:19 PM).
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I know that a couple people like to call this place "Anxiety and Disorder forum", or even "PC's Logical Fallacy section" and there's probably a lot more of those names out there, that I just haven't heard of.

I only rarely post there and when I do, it usually boils down to some 2-liners or something, that don't really grab much attention, probably because I like to make my points as clear as possible, so there's only low merit of making an argument out of it.I don't mind that, because I'm not all too hot about drama in that section, anyway.
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Old March 18th, 2016 (2:31 PM).
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It's a debate section, really, so expectations are usually low on my part. Those types of sections are hotbeds for conflict, drama, and controversy. This section is no exception, but it is much more civil than the rest of the internet, and that already makes it miles ahead.

However, I would like to offer a criticism. Please don't take this the wrong way, or be offended, but I think sometimes that the moderators themselves allow bad situations to go on for too long. There should be more decisive action when a situation appears to be getting out of hand and too angry and hateful. And sometimes, the moderators even get entangled in the drama and come off as clearly angry and kind of mean when scolding people. I'm not saying they shouldn't have opinions or anything, but I think that they should be able to at least maintain their cool. It's difficult, I understand. But if there's a person with what appears to be a hateful, intolerant opinion that will do nothing but cause the thread to spiral out of control, I think they should be dealt with as soon as possible. Not engaged or threatened.

That's all though. Again, it's pretty good for a debate forum! I am a neurotic, anxious wreck who likes to avoid that because well, it usually isn't very productive and just stresses me out a lot. But I can actually handle (somewhat) the drama in there. It could be much, much, much worse. Keep up the better work!
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Old March 18th, 2016 (2:44 PM).
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Originally Posted by JohnnyMustang View Post
If arguments about Pokémon can get heated, I think it's safe to assume that a section with a nature like The Round Table will get heated arguments from time to time. About the controversial topics: Controversy is expected to happen in debates, because for every debate, there are two sides of the story, which is the main purpose of debates per se.

The only piece of feedback I can think of, is, in terms of moderation; I think everything's going smooth. The section itself requires a thick skin from part of the moderators. I'd encourage the mods to keep it as it is, keep an eye on people that instead of debating, posts just to discredit the intellectual grade of the threads. Maybe a tough hand on off-topic posts is needed, I'm not sure.
My idea is that every debate should be encouraged and let people know that they can debate whatever they want, as long as they're respectful towards other members.
I know. I understand that arguments are supposed to happen, as I did mention it in my original post, and they can get heated with Pokemon as well. However, I think I may have used heated a little differently than I should have or explained it a bit, but I was thinking of heated as in goes from simple arguments to full on attacks against people, and I mean in the sense of throwing insults and similar stuff like that. Rather that would still define what is happening then when it gets to that level as an argument or not, I'm not too for sure, but I do apologize. And while I don't see it that much on general Pokemon sections in terms of people throwing insults at each other, while I don't see it often in regular Pokemon sections, I do personally think it is much more occurring in the Round Table. I do apologize about this in my first post. As for the controversy part, I remembered that once I read this. I wasn't honestly thinking about it once I posted it, I did know this, but I honestly wasn't thinking about it, and I do want to thank you for reminding me.
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Old March 18th, 2016 (2:50 PM).
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What you call "Drama" I call it thin skin. Arguments about abortion, or homosexuality, are expected to get heated and honestly? The only drama I've seen was from that Gilles de Rais guy, but he clearly had issues. And like RF said, I've heard a lot of people, unfairly talking bad about The Round Table, which honestly pisses me off.

Quote:
I know that a couple people like to call this place "Anxiety and Disorder forum", or even "PC's Logical Fallacy section"
I'd invite those people to debate in The Round Table and see if there's any "Logical Fallacy". It is pretty obvious that there are plenty of users who sees The Round Table regulars as dumb, or whatever you want to call it. There's always the ocassional passer by that drops by, makes one condescendent post and never writes again.

The ugly truth is that the round table is not for everybody, but talking bad about a whole section just because you don't like it, is not cool.

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Originally Posted by Pancham Cutie View Post
I know. I understand that arguments are supposed to happen, as I did mention it in my original post, and they can get heated with Pokemon as well. However, I think I may have used heated a little differently than I should have or explained it a bit, but I was thinking of heated as in goes from simple arguments to full on attacks against people, and I mean in the sense of throwing insults and similar stuff like that. Rather that would still define what is happening then when it gets to that level as an argument or not, I'm not too for sure, but I do apologize. And while I don't see it that much on general Pokemon sections in terms of people throwing insults at each other, while I don't see it often in regular Pokemon sections, I do personally think it is much more occurring in the Round Table. I do apologize about this in my first post. As for the controversy part, I remembered that once I read this. I wasn't honestly thinking about it once I posted it, I did know this, but I honestly wasn't thinking about it, and I do want to thank you for reminding me.
No need to apologize really, I just thought about pointing it out.
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Old March 18th, 2016 (3:50 PM).
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I don't see any problem in Round Table. It's a debating forum, people are going to have passion behind their reasoning if they believe it warrants passion. This forum (and all preceding versions of the forum, D&D in particular) has long since had a rather unfair stigma placed on it by virtue of the average PC member having a very low threshold on what constitutes as 'flaming', 'drama' or the like. It's one thing to not care for posting in such topics on a forum you joined for Pokémon interests, it's another (and rather crude) thing to take people talking about their beliefs with enthusiasm and chastising them for it.

Naturally there are threads that are cyclical and never change, like abortion and gun control. I can understand the criticisms there - they inevitably turn into repetitive walls of text where as far as I can tell, no one has changed their mind after participating. They get tiring rather quickly and I don't blame people's exhaustion there.
At the same time, I don't exactly feel much pity if you knowingly walked into a section based on people debating and arguing their points and, well, failed at that. I'm sorry that people don't exactly roll over if their beliefs are questioned or don't coexist with yours?

The mods are doing fine; they step in when necessary and prevent any real casualties, removing offenders when necessary. They take part in discussions and don't just simply watch the action from the warden's office. There's not much more that can be done without advocating for a lobotomy of the forum.
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Old March 19th, 2016 (12:02 AM).
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I've been active in RT since February 2013. Of my 5300 or so posts, over 1750 - a third - of them have been in RT. So it goes without saying that I have a great affinity for this section and have a strong interest in seeing it flourish.

I think it's important to begin with realization that RT isn't for everybody. That should be a given, and that is perfectly understandable. I personally haven't been involved with the new gen speculation, someone else might not have an interest in entertainment, every section has its own barrier to entry. Some people just aren’t down for the discussions in RT. That’s fine.

With that being said, I am very happy in the direction that RT is going. Even just half a year ago, there was a much greater frequency of uncouth behaviour. What do I mean by that? Personal attacks, calling people names, excessive aggression (especially over the course of multiple posts), ignoring points of contention and flaws in one’s own arguments, “they’re just wrong” arguments, bad faith, and a lot of attitude.

There was a crowd of people who generally incited and participated in those behaviours. They fostered an us-versus-them mentality that was unhealthy for the section and for discussion in general. They entered discussion with their emotions on the line, which is the last thing to do if you want a rational, respectful discussion. They also picked on certain members unfairly, in my opinion, and I regret that I did not stand up for them any further than I did. There was much tone policing and accusations of tone policing. Thankfully that’s pretty much a thing of the past. I cannot recall a memorable instance of any of the above occurring within the last several months. Activity has also been low since about August 2014, in terms of both the number of threads and posts being created.

Things are better now! Other than the whole disruptive crowd thing being resolved, we’ve got thread tags and mods who are actively moderating discussions! We’ve also lost a lot of the troll activity that was rampant in 2010, and if they’re still here, they’re doing a damn fine job of encouraging discussion. We also have an uptick in activity since February 2016. I’m optimistic that RT will become more active in the coming months.

RE: Drama, there’s always going to be some level of that in RT, and that’s because we’re playing with fire, essentially, hehe. IMO as long as there’s no systemic perpetuation of drama (weak mods, an incendiary group of people, a culture of escalation over rational discussion) I think we’re fine.

Otherwise, I’ve always been interested in increasing the appeal of this section. One way we could do that is by increasing the breadth of topics. I have a few things to say about this. Firstly, news topics. IIRC, in the past, news topics made up a larger proportion of threads. Space news, physical news, medical news – essentially news about scientific breakthroughs is generally interesting to most people and they have a low information barrier to posting.

Secondly, I’ve been getting interested in philosophy topics of a more general type. And I don’t mean political philosophy because we have plenty of that already. I have a couple of thread ideas on the backburner right now. I think they’d be great for encouraging discussion and they don’t have to be hot-button issues so they won’t be so controversial.

Thirdly, I think events are a good idea. We’ve got PCNation going, which is good and very much deserved in a section like this one. We can always brainstorm new ideas though. Maybe something like weekly ethical dilemmas although that might get dark quickly. I don’t know Let’s spitball.

Fourthly, I tried doing a DCC when I modded this place (I think. I can’t find it when I search for it so maybe I’m hallucinating). I don’t really remember how well it took off, but I think it died eventually. I think my rationale was to “build community” or something like that – have a launchpad where people can get to know each other, so they can be more comfortable sharing their opinion in the section, be more civil to one another, etc. It might’ve been a bit redundant with the rest of D&D so if I could do it again, I’d either make it a fast-moving lite discussion thread with a much lower barrier to posting or make it a full-on casual DCC. It might be worth considering.

RE: Feedback, I think it’s a good idea to find out why the people who don’t post in RT don’t. There’s obviously the issue of the lack personal interest in this kind of discussion and I don’t see that as a problem. But there might be other reasons that people don’t come here that are worth looking into. I think I’m too much in the RT bubble to figure out the reasons why people don’t come here unless I hear them from them myself. So if you’re not an RT “regular” we would all be interested in your feedback.

Related to that are the people who used to post in RT (then D&D, and before then OC&D) but don’t anymore. I’m not sure if they still lurk and would find their way to this post. Consider this a call for feedback from you as well What did you like when you around? Why did you leave? Is there anything that could be done differently? Anything you’d change? Maybe we could get this feedback thread more traffic somehow. So far it only has 100 or so views, and a lot of them might just re-views or refreshes by few actual viewers.

Question: is anybody a member of another discussion/debate forum? I know Serebii has one, and they’re Pokemon forum like us so they have to be comparable to some extent. Maybe there’s something we can learn from what other people are doing *shrug*

Anyways, definitely the more the merrier. The Round Table might not be for everybody, but it would benefit from having more people around.
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Old March 19th, 2016 (3:03 PM).
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Re: a 'DCC' of sorts

A while ago, back when I was easily the most active member in a pretty dead section (I don't think Kanzler was alive at the time), I brought up the idea of a pseudo-DCC of sorts. Basically, it would be for little news stories or articles that might gather a tidbit of interest, but not enough to really warrant a thread. Basically a casual thread for people just linking to something they found interesting ('Dung beetle named after Iggy Azalea' or something to that regard) and briefly talking about it. If it developed into a lengthy or elaborate discussion, the associated posts could easily be moved into a thread of their own. Live wasn't fond of it simply because of how dead D&D was at the time and how it would likely suck away needed activity from the core forum, which was certainly a fair enough point to make.
Perhaps it's something worth looking into given the reanimation of this place?
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Old March 19th, 2016 (3:42 PM).
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Re: a 'DCC' of sorts

A while ago, back when I was easily the most active member in a pretty dead section (I don't think Kanzler was alive at the time), I brought up the idea of a pseudo-DCC of sorts. Basically, it would be for little news stories or articles that might gather a tidbit of interest, but not enough to really warrant a thread. Basically a casual thread for people just linking to something they found interesting ('Dung beetle named after Iggy Azalea' or something to that regard) and briefly talking about it. If it developed into a lengthy or elaborate discussion, the associated posts could easily be moved into a thread of their own. Live wasn't fond of it simply because of how dead D&D was at the time and how it would likely suck away needed activity from the core forum, which was certainly a fair enough point to make.
Perhaps it's something worth looking into given the reanimation of this place?
We axed it for that reason last time, along with the last time it was re-named/re-purposed, but I actually wanted to bring it back and it didn't make it out of HQ, some admins were against the idea, given the Treehouse (then General Chat?) had the original DCC.
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Old March 19th, 2016 (4:19 PM).
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Honestly, I don't post in here a lot because the threads are... well, controversial, and I feel like my posts will appear childish or uneducated. I also feel like I won't be able to back up my arguments when I do post in here. There's nothing wrong with the section on its own as it makes a good parallel to The Treehouse. As for activity, I've got nothing. I'm not active enough in here to give insight, and I apologize.
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Old March 19th, 2016 (8:18 PM).
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We axed it for that reason last time, along with the last time it was re-named/re-purposed, but I actually wanted to bring it back and it didn't make it out of HQ, some admins were against the idea, given the Treehouse (then General Chat?) had the original DCC.
Well, hopefully people are more on board this time around :)
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Old March 19th, 2016 (8:55 PM).
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Honestly, I don't post in here a lot because the threads are... well, controversial, and I feel like my posts will appear childish or uneducated. I also feel like I won't be able to back up my arguments when I do post in here. There's nothing wrong with the section on its own as it makes a good parallel to The Treehouse. As for activity, I've got nothing. I'm not active enough in here to give insight, and I apologize.
Debates are supposed to be controversial.
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Old March 19th, 2016 (9:05 PM).
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Debates are supposed to be controversial.
I meant too controversial for me to feel obligated to get involved.
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Old March 20th, 2016 (11:59 AM).
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RE: DCC
I don't think it's automatically true that a DCC would suck away activity. If we can ensure that the DCC would have a different, perhaps lighter appeal, then it wouldn't be directly competing with the rest of the section. If there's something worth saying in one of the threads below, and the DCC is billed as a lighter, faster-moving thread, then I imagine that the post would still be worth making in the regular thread.

I'm actually not familiar with the decision to remove the DCCs at all - what were the arguments and observations that lead to that decision? Now that the DCCs are gone from other sections, has activity rebounded? Is there a perceptible difference?

I guess one major issue is what an RT DCC would be about. The Treehouse, OR/AS, the VIP and Underground all have DCCs of their own and their contents make sense within their respective sections. Would a casual DCC mesh with the rest of RT? Would it accomplished its desired goals (attracting new posters, giving regular posters somewhere to hang out, eliminating the stigma around RT)? What would make it work? I don’t have much of an opinion on that atm.

RE: Potential goals?
If we’re interested in a more active section, I think what we should really be looking at is increasing diversity and intersection of the people who come here regularly. If there’s going to be one sort of political platform that is “covered” in RT day in and day out, that’s going to turn off a lot of people from participating. Ideally, you should feel equally comfortable or enthusiastic posting here regardless of your political stripes. In addition, I don’t think it’s a good idea for people to have to feel like they require a certain level of political engagement to post here, either. The only real bottom line is that you put some thought into your posts. A lot of people aren’t really political but have a more common-sense approach to contentious issues and that’s very valuable to the section, IMO. RT can’t just be saturated with a certain lingo or worldview when most people see the world through all sorts of lenses.

With respect to intersections, take gimmiepie for example. IMO, he’s centrist on economic issues, somewhat-left on gun issues, skeptical of racial issues, and right on abortions. He’s not someone who you can easily describe with a certain political label. I think members who have intersections across the big political identities as well as other interests are highly valuable to the section because they’re able to agree and disagree with everybody and that helps to both encourage and moderate discussion at the same time. He’s obviously not the only one, it’s just that he’s someone I’m more familiar with. Bottom line is that I believe this section succeeds the more people discuss with one another and posters with intersections across the big political identities are best able to do that. If those kinds of posters don’t feel welcome, then the section might end up being more polarized and that can lead to drama, flame-fests, etc.

I apologize if this all sound somewhat cold. I don’t mean to objectify anyone, I just want to communicate my thoughts as clearly as possible. And this is just high-level stuff, I haven’t really put enough thought into what we could concretely do about these goals.

Other stuff
More ideas: topic of the week? I think the Treehouse has (had?) one and it seems appropriate here as well.

@Karnavaly I think there definitely could be more to RT than debates. As OC&D and D&D it’s always been more than a forum for debates. I think this supports having more news threads amongst other things.

In any case, I keep track of the activity of this section in an objective method, and if current trends hold, this month could be the most active month since 2011 (and that’s only because I haven’t looked into activity before 2011). So yaay!
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Old March 20th, 2016 (7:21 PM). Edited March 20th, 2016 by Star-Lord.
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Moving along from "controversial" threads or w/e... I'm really, really not fond of these threads that basically go:

"<Thread Title Here>"

OP: Well does it?

An example being this one here. I honestly think if this place is meant to have discussion we should actually put effort into the OP? I don't think I'm really asking for too much. Psychic made a pretty good summary of my thoughts here. If we're going to be having discussions I think we should have nuanced ones that actually take the full picture of the topic of hand into consideration, rather than yes/no debate stuff.

edit: before anybody comes at me about "prefixes", debates can also incite nuanced discussion [!] They don't have to be yes/no.
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Old March 20th, 2016 (7:51 PM).
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Moving along from "controversial" threads or w/e... I'm really, really not fond of these threads that basically go:

"<Thread Title Here>"

OP: Well does it?

An example being this one here. I honestly think if this place is meant to have discussion we should actually put effort into the OP? I don't think I'm really asking for too much. Psychic made a pretty good summary of my thoughts here. If we're going to be having discussions I think we should have nuanced ones that actually take the full picture of the topic of hand into consideration, rather than yes/no debate stuff.

edit: before anybody comes at me about "prefixes", debates can also incite nuanced discussion [!] They don't have to be yes/no.
That's just your preference though. Whether or not the OP was elaborated is irrelevant, since it became one of the most popular and active debates.
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Old March 20th, 2016 (8:08 PM).
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That's just your preference though. Whether or not the OP was elaborated is irrelevant, since it became one of the most popular and active debates.
Ok? I'm still allowed to make a post about it - And it's very much about the principal of not allowing lazy OPs in a forum meant to be for in depth discussion
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Old March 20th, 2016 (8:14 PM). Edited March 21st, 2016 by Livewire.
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Moving along from "controversial" threads or w/e... I'm really, really not fond of these threads that basically go:

"<Thread Title Here>"

OP: Well does it?

An example being this one here. I honestly think if this place is meant to have discussion we should actually put effort into the OP? I don't think I'm really asking for too much. Psychic made a pretty good summary of my thoughts here. If we're going to be having discussions I think we should have nuanced ones that actually take the full picture of the topic of hand into consideration, rather than yes/no debate stuff.

edit: before anybody comes at me about "prefixes", debates can also incite nuanced discussion [!] They don't have to be yes/no.
I'm going to have to disagree. A thread structured like the one you described and the one I posted is perfectly fine. On the outside, a simple question might seem as though it won't encourage a broad and open-ended discussion, however within this there's the opportunity for people to bring alternative perspectives on the topic into the thread. I'm not a fan of having multiple questions or a lengthy explanation, because it garners 'question and answer' responses which aren't incredibly conducive to a discussion or a debate. Also I reiterate what I've said previously:
Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousnathan
Within this there's room for the piggybacking of perspectives and the potential for a clash of opinion. Just because a question seems shallow on the outside, that doesn't mean it won't generate a debate that consists of a conglomerate of diverse viewpoints. Someone might disagree with something another has said, and this might lead to a discussion somewhat tangential to the original question, such as the ones you provided above.
Whether an OP must be lengthy and have a considerable amount of "effort" put into it for it to produce a relatively extensive debate is in itself debatable. That thread is one of the more active ones in the section. However, one could argue that the "Should the USA ban guns?" debate has garnered more activity while using a series of discussion points. But is there a direct relationship between activity and the way an OP is structured?

If you'd like to see more discussions with extensive OPs, then feel free to make some of your own to meet your personal preference.
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  #21    
Old March 20th, 2016 (8:37 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star-Lord View Post
Ok? I'm still allowed to make a post about it - And it's very much about the principal of not allowing lazy OPs in a forum meant to be for in depth discussion
You are allowed to make a post about it. I'm just saying that you're assertion is wrong, this one specifically:

Quote:
I honestly think if this place is meant to have discussion we should actually put effort into the OP?
You're assuming that we should put effort into the OP, which as I said, it's just your personal preference, not text-book.
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Old March 20th, 2016 (8:41 PM).
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I think the balance between simpler intros/expansive intros is fine; certainly doesn't seem to have caused any damage to the place, particularly in the last week or so. A vague intro doesn't make for a worse discussion, or at the very least, an inactive one.
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Old March 20th, 2016 (8:50 PM).
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I would think PC has made the most legit section - The Round Table, where real talks is held here and everyone is giving very matured opinions. I dun mind about heated arguments because we have the freedom to share our opinions. \

Least what happens here, stays here.
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  #24    
Old March 21st, 2016 (2:41 AM).
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I'm just dropping a post here to assure you that we're actively reading all the feedback we get and intend to make an effort to take it on board with how the RT develops in the future.

Carry on.
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Old March 21st, 2016 (5:20 AM).
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Just to offer my 2 cents on the thing about OPs: I think that both forms of OPs are fine and we should have a mixture of the two, though lately it's been a lot more of the short question/Treehouse-y type OPs. But hey I'll take it if it means more activity.
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