Serious Second Chances and Forgiveness

Zeostar

Zeostar

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    (as background for inspiration on this topic) Over the last year, I've been silently observing the smash brothers community. (browsing reddit threads, keeping up with videos, etc). In July 2020, it was outed that there was essentially a pedophilia ring with many top players and figures involved.

    Within the last couple weeks, a top player who admitted to guilt back in July attempted suicide. (presumably over feelings of a lost reputation and career). I noticed a completely split response. The Smash Brothers side of the community seems to believe anybody can atone, while comments from outside sources call him a danger who should stay away. I'm not sure what to think anymore. I feel like actions have consequences, as a society we abide by certain rules. It's not like the consequences are secretive before you commit the action. If somebody is murdered and the murderer goes onto become a better person, that life was still taken. If someone sexually peruses a child, the trauma on the child still exists. I just can't envision a situation with somebody like this being allowed back in something such as 'esports' where adults and children co-exist.

    Do you believe in second chances and forgiveness, and where do you think the line is drawn where it doesn't exist? (If it doesn't).
     
    If we ruin someone's life or even take it from someone who has done the same, aren't we just reinforcing the need for such violence?

    If we say that a murderer should be killed, we basically say that killing is good under certain circumstances. We take away any sort of atonement from that person, basically make it easy for them to become a martyr for such behavior.
    If someones is found to have done a despicable act and thus shunned from the community they were a big part of, that's fine. They live, they have to face the consequences and they have to come up with a plan to better themselves. One problem I see is when there's immediate talk about them rejoining that community. For all we know their membership might be one of the reasons why they went down that route and by throwing them out, this could be the best that could happen to both the exilers and the exiled. And even if that is not the case: by not accepting them for a while they need to work hard in order to earn their place back. And sometimes that also means years of atonement.

    In that regard I think second chances are necessary, but the time required before a reintegration can vary severely.
     
    Probably forgives too easily. Depends on the transgression, of course. Asks why a person did a certain act. Seeks a reasonable thought process and/or what knowledge they possessed. Creates such scenarios generously (although, not necessarily immediately).

    Adopts a "forgive, but not forget" stance on matters of atonement. Watches a person's actions over an extended period of time. Looks for changes in behavior (or attempts to do so). Affords them very guarded trust if they pass that.
     
    It's somewhat normal to feel conflicted since few people who commit crimes or evil acts aren't some cackling Saturday morning cartoon villain who is evil because they are evil and they know it. Many (but not all) people who do terrible things aren't aware that they're doing anything wrong or even think that they're doing what's right, or that it's their only option. But whatever their intentions may be, whatever systemic or cultural issues may have been an underlying cause or encouragement, it still does not ever change the fact that some sort of harm was done. Life is sometimes not black and white, but thinking beyond the black and white is often difficult for humans to do.

    Second chances are always something you have to earn though. The criteria and length of time for any case varies depending on what I said in the first paragraph, but you still have to demonstrate that you are genuinely sorry and have changed from what you were, and that's not an instantaneous thing. Some people never truly change for the better....arguably more than people want to believe.
     
    Nah said:
    It's somewhat normal to feel conflicted since few people who commit crimes or evil acts aren't some cackling Saturday morning cartoon villain who is evil because they are evil and they know it. Many (but not all) people who do terrible things aren't aware that they're doing anything wrong or even think that they're doing what's right, or that it's their only option. But whatever their intentions may be, whatever systemic or cultural issues may have been an underlying cause or encouragement, it still does not ever change the fact that some sort of harm was done. Life is sometimes not black and white, but thinking beyond the black and white is often difficult for humans to do.

    Second chances are always something you have to earn though. The criteria and length of time for any case varies depending on what I said in the first paragraph, but you still have to demonstrate that you are genuinely sorry and have changed from what you were, and that's not an instantaneous thing. Some people never truly change for the better....arguably more than people want to believe.
    Click to expand...

    You might actually know what situation I'm referring to in the original post. I made a post about two years ago in the video game section (somewhat whiny) about being discouraged in a loss against esam, you were the one to respond. Although you might not follow this specific situation. And I recall a few other smash brothers related posts from you.

    I think with Zero, he absolutely knew it was wrong. The moment the accusations came out on Twitter, he feigned innocence and attempted damage control. I don't know enough about the subject of pedophilia to know if someone like this can change. Regardless, I was a fan and at one point he was my favorite player. I hope he doesn't attempt self harm again, but the thought of him returning to an audience of children is unsettling. I doubt I could ever bring myself to return as a fan, there will always be doubt in his character.
     
    You get one change with me to bluntly say it if it's not a severe issue between us. As forgiveness some I can forgive other things I won't ever forgive due to severe events with a few people in my life I met. A quote I lived by is:
    " if you don't stand for something, you'll fa for anything." - Unknown
    I been through a lot and can only tolerate so much from people.
     
    I give chances depending on what was done, but I may be a bit wary.

    Honestly, who am I to pass judgment on others? I'm not perfect by a long shot.
     
    I believe in forgiveness and I do my best to give everyone a second chance. However that being said, I used to always forgive people when there were circumstances I should not have. Whether that was someone who was being incredibly toxic, manipulative, committing an act I consider unforgivable (usually because it is so morally wrong) - there is a limit where you give a second chance and though in the past I would and have given the second chance, I realise now I don't have any obligation to forgive people in those scenarios if what they did made me extremely uncomfortable or angry. In most cases, people will not do something so extreme and it will usually be a conflict/disagreement that I'm ready to forgive and give a second chance for. I am prepared to accept in thinking this, that people are free to do the same to me and cut me out should I ever cross that type of line. Nowadays I'm not hesitant to cut off people or distance myself from them if I think what they did was wrong but learning what to forgive was hard, definitely.
     
    I do happen to think that people always deserve a second chance. But when it comes to doing something to the extent that some of the aforementioned Smash Bros players have done, then it becomes more of an issue with atonement. Paying your dues is always the first step. Making things right with those you've wronged can be the first step too, but sometimes it's easier said than done, and sometimes it can't be done at all.

    A second chance shouldn't be about making yourself feel better. It should be about making yourself be better.
     
    ZeoStar said:
    You might actually know what situation I'm referring to in the original post. I made a post about two years ago in the video game section (somewhat whiny) about being discouraged in a loss against esam, you were the one to respond. Although you might not follow this specific situation. And I recall a few other smash brothers related posts from you.

    I think with Zero, he absolutely knew it was wrong. The moment the accusations came out on Twitter, he feigned innocence and attempted damage control. I don't know enough about the subject of pedophilia to know if someone like this can change. Regardless, I was a fan and at one point he was my favorite player. I hope he doesn't attempt self harm again, but the thought of him returning to an audience of children is unsettling. I doubt I could ever bring myself to return as a fan, there will always be doubt in his character.
    Click to expand...
    I had a feeling you were talking about Zero yeah. I saw some of the posts and articles regarding the allegations back when they first surfaced en masse last year.
     
    I readily give second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth... changes to people who frequently don't deserve them. Especially if it's family and damn does that bring up a lot of trauma for me. On top of that, I have a very hard time saying no to people which is why I'd rather ghost them. For all of my forgiveness the only person who seems to hold a grudge the most is against myself.

    If I don't know you, or you're a "cancelled celerity", it depends on the circumstance. I don't know these people and can only guess at what waking in their shoes would be like or why the made the choices they made (so long as it's not outright predatory), so I really don't consider it my place to have an opinion unless asked, I guess.
     
    ZeoStar said:
    Do you believe in second chances and forgiveness, and where do you think the line is drawn where it doesn't exist? (If it doesn't).
    Click to expand...

    I am going to be frank, I don't think our society is currently ready to tackle questions like this. In the United States, we throw people in jail for smoking weed of all things for years, and decades for selling it. I would agree in a vacuum that we need to be more understanding of these people and we should be dealing this these people in a much different manner, but trying to defend them at this time will only get you the accusation of being a pedo or murderer defender.

    Lets get all of the drug offenders, the petty thieves, the people who were violent in their early 20s, and the people who have untreated schizophrenia out of jail first.
     
    Pokedream.su said:
    I am going to be frank, I don't think our society is currently ready to tackle questions like this. In the United States, we throw people in jail for smoking weed of all things for years, and decades for selling it. I would agree in a vacuum that we need to be more understanding of these people and we should be dealing this these people in a much different manner, but trying to defend them at this time will only get you the accusation of being a pedo or murderer defender.

    Lets get all of the drug offenders, the petty thieves, the people who were violent in their early 20s, and the people who have untreated schizophrenia out of jail first.
    Click to expand...

    I agree wholeheartedly, though weed problems aren't that relevant where I reside, illegal selling is still a crime.
    But really:
    Rehabilitation, accessible rehab programs and therapy for addicts.
    Proper mental health treatment for mentally ill prisoners.
    Community service and education for minor offenses. A thief shouldn't be in the same place as a rapist, low/nonviolent robbers can be rehabilitated. If I'm being honest, there's people who only resort to it because they need something: food, meds, bills, etc.
     
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