• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

Ubers officially its own tier, M-Ray banned to new tier called "Anything Goes"

Nah

15,955
Posts
10
Years
    • Age 31
    • she/her, they/them
    • Seen today
    Ubers officially its own tier, M-Ray banned to new tier called "Anything Goes"
    Breaking news: Today marks a big day in the competitive battling community. Just a short while ago, the Smogon community made three major changes to it's tiering system:

    1) Ubers is now officially recognized as it's own tier (it kinda really was its own tier, but it was never officially stated to be so, and much of the community viewed it as little more than a banlist).

    2) Mega Rayquaza is the first Pokemon to ever be banned from from Ubers.

    3) A new tier of sorts, called "Anything Goes", now sits above Ubers. As the name implies, there are absolutely no rules in this tier except for Endless Battle clause.


    This be the post announcing it: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-is-added-m-ray-is-banned-from-ubers.3523205/

    This is a pretty big thing, right? What do y'all think about it and its implications for the future?
     
    6,266
    Posts
    10
    Years
  • Yikes! I remember when people speculated that Mega Gengar would be banned from Ubers for its trapping and selective killing capabilities, but this is something else. It's hard for me to determine my take on if Mega Rayquaza deserved it or not...

    I am curious as to what else might get this boot. But this made history, what with something being banned from Ubers, that's definitely new.
     

    mew_nani

    Pokécommunity's Licensed Tree Exorcist
    1,839
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • Geez, things are so bad we have to go beyond the impossible and make a new tier above even the strongest Pokemon? We had to implement a Pokegod tier?! And banish Pokemon to that tier? That's insane.
     
    23,569
    Posts
    11
    Years
    • She/Her, It/Its
    • Seen today
    I wonder if that will make Ubers become the new OU, OU the new UU and so on and so forth at some point. Considering Smogon being the first competitive scene ever (at least to my knowledge) to make a playable and (kinda) balanced tier of (basically) broken things.

    I guess, we'll see how it turns out.
     
    6,266
    Posts
    10
    Years
  • I didn't initially read that more thoroughly at first, but it also mentioned stuff like OHKO spam and Moody. Does that mean we might have some OHKO move spammers going about here?

    When this tier starts really going underway, it doesn't look like battles in it are going to be normal.
     
    50,218
    Posts
    13
    Years
  • We all knew Mega Rayquaza was getting the obvious ban a.k.a. "kicked upstairs" into its own tier, because it was basically too good. A very broken 800 BST + Excellent ability that weakens Flying-type's weaknesses + No need to use a Mega Stone = Definitely beyond Ubers.

    Game Freak, what were you smoking when you came up with this thing?
     

    Zeffy

    g'day
    6,402
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Feb 7, 2024
    I wonder if that will make Ubers become the new OU, OU the new UU and so on and so forth at some point. Considering Smogon being the first competitive scene ever (at least to my knowledge) to make a playable and (kinda) balanced tier of (basically) broken things.

    I guess, we'll see how it turns out.

    Short answer: Ubers is not going to become OU. Ubers was a banlist, basically. The reason why the tier is called OverUsed is because the tiering system is based on usage--each tier has a cut-off. You can read more about it on Smogon, but that's basically the gist of it.
     
    6,266
    Posts
    10
    Years
  • ^ ...Okay, without Dupes Clause THAT might be a bit overdoing it. But it's Smogon's call and as I said I just hope the battles stay interesting.
     

    Enigmatic Emolga

    abandoned account, pls delete if seen
    30
    Posts
    11
    Years
  • So ORAS has only been out for 9 days (2 if you're a fellow European) and a new addition has already gotten itself banned, even from Ubers.
    Ubers officially its own tier, M-Ray banned to new tier called "Anything Goes"

    Makes me wonder what on earth they'll try to ban next... *stares at Mega Mewtwo X*
     

    Zeffy

    g'day
    6,402
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Feb 7, 2024
    The names are going to be the same, But what I think is: The new OU pokes are going to be as powerfull as the actual ubers.

    No...? I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Really, the only direct effect of the introduction of this new tier is that Ubers can now be less cancerous than it was. I don't see how that would indirectly affect any tier below Ubers, to be quite honest. As far as everyone is concerned, OU is still the standard Smogon metagame.

    Makes me wonder what on earth they'll try to ban next... *stares at Mega Mewtwo X*

    *points at Primal Groudon*
     

    Zeffy

    g'day
    6,402
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Feb 7, 2024
    Keyword: Still

    Why?. Simple, If things keep going like this, The Ubers are going to become normal pokes for the power level. What I'm trying to say is: The newer OU pokes are going to be as powerfull as the actual ubers. (This is my theory). And sorry if it was too hard to understand.

    That's not going to happen. Pokemon from OU are not going to move up to Ubers unless a suspect test happens. This is different from the normal NU->RU->UU->OU moving because those are based mostly on usage. A Pokemon is in Ubers because it's far too centralizing and/or powerful for any OU Pokemon to deal with (think Mega Salamence, 5th Gen Excadrill, 4th Gen Garchomp).

    Your theory is based on the premise that Pokemon from OU is going to move up to Ubers due to usage, which is untrue. So no, your theory is not going to happen anytime soon. I would recommend reading this thread to have a more concise understanding of how Smogon's tiering system works: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-september-2014.3516635/
     

    Polar Spectrum

    I'm still here; watching. Waiting.
    1,663
    Posts
    9
    Years
  • Oh hey; that hadn't occured to me before - species / dupes clause getting tossed for this that is. I have to say, that actually strikes me as pretty nice. Almost all the pokemon I've trained I've made 2 separate versions of - so being able to use 2 of the same 'mon (potentially with different builds) on a team is legitimately, a pretty nice idea to me.

    Six though.... xD That's unfortunate. The twinkle of neatness has been submerged underneath six rayquaza with dragon ascent, six darkrai with dark void, six choice band talonflame, six smeargle, six etc etc.

    Bright side; this is bound to produce a plethora of hilarious battle videos.
     

    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
    1,639
    Posts
    11
    Years
  • Well, at least you can't use six Mega Rayquaza, but I still think lack of dupes clause is too far.

    And Ubers should've remained just a banlist and not a serious tier. There are a lot of Pokémon which are crap in OU yet shine in Ubers because they're specific counters to Uber threats.

    I'm just sad the Mega Mewtwos are overshadowed by Mega Rayquaza since they must hold the Mega Stone and aren't powerful enough to give up the held item.
     
    Last edited:
    36
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • This was rather inevitable. Back when moody was banned from Ubers, I made the argument that Ubers was a banlist, not a tier, and thus an ability shouldn't be banned from there. Once it was acknowledged that things can be banned from from Ubers, the logical conclusion was the Ubers would be made a tier. That also made sense as people actually played Ubers seriously, and there was no reason to not have people actually try to keep it balanced.

    Now, back when generation 5 was released, Smogon was arguing about how to start tiering. I remember several proposals, and they ended up doing what we know now, which is banning a certain group of pokemon and then testing from there. At that time, oh so many years ago, I made the argument that a metagame with all of the pokemon that were quickbanned could be balanced, although one or two of those pokemon might end up being banned. It would, however, look significantly different from what OU traditionally looks like. It would basically be what we now know as the Uber tier, except with a banlist above it and usage based drops. Now, the decision made at the time was to stick with the status quo, which wasn't the wrong one, but brought up some interesting questions regarding what a tier actually was meant to be. OU wasn't supposed to be "all of the pokemon minus the one's which cause severe imbalance", it was supposed to be that generation's traditional OU, which would look like the OU of every generation past.

    Now we reached another interesting point, where we've acknowledged that it is possible to try to make Ubers balanced. At this point, the next logical step would be to make OU based on usage in Ubers, but Smogon has said this isn't happening at the time. This makes sense - we wouldn't want to have to re-figure out all the tiers below OU all over again. However, come gen7, this could be a legitimate proposal.

    The other thing we've acknowledged is that that the usage based tier system isn't sacred, as Ubers with low usage don't drop. Now this begs the question, why isn't this true for all tiers? If we are going to start by arbitrerily deciding pokemon for OU and Ubers, and working from there, why can't we take UU and try to balance it. As anyone who has played a lower tier knows, the metagame goes with the whims of the higher tier. If a pokemon stops being used, it could drop, and then you've got a whole new force which may be an imbalance. But if we aren't dropping Ubers into OU, why must we drop OU pokemon into UU. If UU decides that its balanced, why not leave that pokemon in OU until they feel like they need a change. The only was Ubers drop is by suspect test, but why not implement that for all tiers? Also, why not drop a pokemon which is OU but would also be balanced in UU (niche pokemon, for example)?

    Part of the answer to this is what was known as the slippery slope, and was used as an argument back when Aldaron first proposed the Drizzle+SS ban. The argument was that, if we can ban something like that, why not ban Kyogre+water spout, or whatever, and try to make EVERYTHING OU - with certain limitations. However, it is understoof that at some point complexity isn't helpful. Having a high usage pokemon in OU be UU is confusing, and how this would be determined is even more of a headache - especially for something which would only be used once or twice per tier.


    Now, I'm not trying to lobby for any change in particular. I rarely play Smogon tiers any more - I now stick to VGC. However, I just feel like these are interesting questions to ask, especially given the fact that we can change how the tier system works, and Usage based tiers are no longer sacred.
     

    Sopheria

    響け〜 響け!
    4,904
    Posts
    10
    Years
  • Well, this changes everything. I wonder what other Pokes are going to get banned from Ubers? I think the main reason Mega Rayquaza is so broken is because it doesn't need a Mega Stone to evolve, so it can hold any item and still Mega Evolve. For that reason, I don't suspect any other Pokes will get banned from Ubers any time soon, but you never know--there are quite a few Pokes that have dominated Ubers for a while (e.g. Arceus, Mega Mewtwo Y), so now that Ubers is a proper tier, they have to work to keep it balanced. I'm interested to see what will develop from this o:
     

    Dark Azelf

    ☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
    7,210
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen today
    Not that i care about ubers but Mega Gengar potentially belongs in that tier too tbh lol.
     
    Back
    Top