Chit-Chat: Welcome to the Strategies & Movesets forum for Sun & Moon!

[Nah]

what other moves did Greninja gain from oras other than Gunk Shot and Low Kick if any? I need to stop using it so much. It's rather boring to use such a good Pokémon after a while.

Greninja got all these moves:

Bounce, Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Ice Punch, Icy Wind, Dark Pulse, Snore, Role Play, Water Pulse, Spite, Snatch, Endure

Gunk Shot and Low Kick are the two big ones for it because they help with it's usual weaknesses, and all the other ones either are kinda useless for it, except for Dark Pulse, which is a TM anyway.

https://pastebin.com/8rbu6Fmp


@Archer: There's nothing wrong with having a discussion about this, even if you're in the minority on a particular topic. I agree with Zeffy and mid, talking about with others is a great way to learn, and you're still kinda new at this, so you have plenty of room for improvement.

I, on the other hand, have been doing competitive battles for almost 3 1/2 years now, so I'm just a big nub.

 

[skyburial]

lord. but still lol at people running physical gren

I watched a physical Gren tear up one of mootypwns' hacked teams the other day before I found out she hacks. It's got some shock value since the special sets are more popular.

 

[skyburial]

The first ban reason for Greninja is his versatility?. That's where I disagree, There's lots of versatile pokes out there as well (I know, They don't have STAB). If something haves a huge movepool... It's a ban deserver?

etc.

I think Greninja fits the classic "Portait of an Uber" (link) very well.

"Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."

Greninja sweeps for days and its speed is just out of this world.

 

[halcyonic]

"Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."

Greninja sweeps for days and its speed is just out of this world.

not enough points. other stuff also sweep easily with great speed and some with decent bulk but why are they different from greninja?

okay so its 2am so forgive me if i say anything stupid. also i wont say 'lol' anymore cos it may seem rude.

1. versatility: yes, it is versatile and has 4mss. but, how does it help it? you never know what it's going to run. if gren could run evry move it wanted to, then it would be much easier to predict. but because of its versatility, you never know what it's going to hit you with aside from maybe gunk shot and ice beam. this is what makes it hard to counter.

2. predictability: okay, because of its versatility, you are forced to hard predict unless you know its full moveset. let's say, you think it runs hp fire but in fact in runs dark pulse. so... switch out your ferro to mega bro thinking it's safe? gg mega bro.

It's not smart. It's even stupid as can be.

i disagree, you know what's dumb? trapping (which is out of the topic) and letting your ferrothorn stay in on a possible hp fire when you could easily switch out to something that takes a hp fire and dark pulse.

3. defenses: okay srsly wut? no one will ever use it to tank a hit. it has piss weak defenses, and most of the time it's taking a lot of damage even when resisted after protean. also the common moveset nowadays have its special defense lowered, and most priority are physical. you are basically lowering and already low stat, what bad would it do? gren isn't going to live your mega sceptile dragon pulse even with a neutral nature...

4. stalling: no one will let gren stay in on chansey or any other staller and let it stall. a smart player would switch out to a stallbreaker/wallbreaker and kill stuff easy. unless greninja is your last pokemon left, why would you let someone slowly kill off your greninja with burn/toxic/leech seed?

andddd... mega sableye! okay, that thing is ridiculously good, but is it much more manageable than gren, yes. mega diancie isn't its only 'counter'. think clefable, gardevoir and other strong special attackers/fairy types. even physical se attacks deal with it (mega lopunny, mega altaria with dd, azumarill), if you say sableye will burn them, can't you just prevent your physical attacker from getting burned and wait for the right moment before switching in again and killing it off? also it has standard, predictable moves like its cm sweeping set or either the utility knock off (ofc cm being the more popular one) and not to mention it's slow af. it loses prankster after mega evolution so ya, your hazards will also wear it down.

nice job at coming up with arguments though n_n srsly im not joking! at least you can backup your points and not like "LOOOOL GREN IS PISS WEAK SMORGEN SUCKS THEY KEEP ON BANNING STUFF EVEN GREN NOW DON'T BAN IT!1!1!" okay maybe i went a little too far :p i might have badly phrased some stuff cos i have terribu engrishu but i hope you get what i mean ;3

 

[Megan]

My Greninja will be sad when it gets banned. Then again, a ban could be the opportunity Starmie has been waiting for to reclaim its place in OU, considering its high Speed and the declining of Sand teams, which made Excadrill a little bit less usfull.

Makes me wanna build a team around Starmie, tbh...

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I personally think Mega Blastoise > Starmie, but I hate the fact that Blastoise takes up the mega slot.

 

[skyburial]

not enough points. other stuff also sweep easily with great speed and some with decent bulk but why are they different from greninja?

Hey, sorry m8, not all of us want to right 5 paragraphs about disruptive Pokemon and what makes them annoying.

Let's take another common sweeper with a handful of viable sets and do a side by side comparison with Greninja. Garchomp, I choose you.

Massively viable movepool on both? Yep. Can I run either one as physical or special? Absolutely, piece of cake. Can a choice scarf change the match up between these two? Definitely.

Does Garchomp get priority? Nope, gg Garchomp. Water Shuriken to Greninja. Outspeeding everything in the tier to Greninja (except Gale Wings Talonflame, who's Ubers-bound anyhow). This thing just runs circles around the meta.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Hey, sorry m8, not all of us want to right 5 paragraphs about disruptive Pokemon and what makes them annoying.

Let's take another common sweeper with a handful of viable sets and do a side by side comparison with Greninja. Garchomp, I choose you.

Massively viable movepool on both? Yep. Can I run either one as physical or special? Absolutely, piece of cake. Can a choice scarf change the match up between these two? Definitely.

Does Garchomp get priority? Nope, gg Garchomp. Water Shuriken to Greninja. Outspeeding everything in the tier to Greninja (except Gale Wings Talonflame, who's Ubers-bound anyhow). This thing just runs circles around the meta.

No one uses pure special Garchomp because 80 Special Attack just doesn't hit hard enough. 102 Speed is good, but it falls short at times.

Talonflame isn't Ubers-worthy because even though it possesses powerful priority, it's ridiculously frail, wears itself down fast with recoil damage from its STABs and tends to get walled by common stuff (read: Wash Rotom, Tyranitar, Heatran).

 

[Dark Azelf]

I'm going to say nothing, Just look at the examples. Don't you notice a pattern?, They're all stallers, Just saying...

And yeah, I just want to see Soul Dew on OU. Draco Meteor spammer Latios incoming.

Yes its 2hkoing stall pokemon, you know the ones with good bulk? Heaven knows what it does vs offense.

Deoxys falls pretty hard to Tyranitar as well.

SuperPower. :\

Alright then. This is going to be long and HARD to understand, Say thanks to my english. I'm not a ban fan, With this said I can start. I just think that things like Mega Mence and Mega Lucario were ban deserver.

The first ban reason for Greninja is his versatility?. That's where I disagree, There's lots of versatile pokes out there as well (I know, They don't have STAB). If something haves a huge movepool... It's a ban deserver?

No, if it has no viable counters/checks without limiting a play style. It does this vs offense and stall and its versatility just makes it harder to check and counter. Salamence in gen 4 was banned for this reason.

The second reason, It's hard to predict. Wow, Just wow. If you want to predict the move of the rival become a psychic, I know, I tend to predict as well but you can't rely on thoughts while battling, It's not smart. It's even stupid as can be. If you have your strategy breaked by YOUR own move it's not even logic to blame the poke. If you can predict every move and battle, Good for you but I still can't see this as something logic. you're the new Rommel

Um, see my above point. Also prediction is a key aspect of pokemon. If you cant predict you are bad at pokemon in most cases, unless you want to fodder your whole team. :\

The third reason if I'm correct is the new moveset. I have to agree with it, It's a beast with it. But, It haves a huge disadvantage with it. And that is, You have to reduce one of it's defenses, So now is even more fragile. And the life orb recoil is a clock on it, You're always going to get hit and killed by the recoil.

Greninja isnt going to "always" be taking hits. Its a frail sweeper that rips walls and offense apart. Switch it out and bring it back in later, watch something die, repeat, not hard.


The fourth reason is, You can't stall it?. Chansey with eviolite stops it. There's something on this planet that that thing doesn't resist without using knock off after?. I know, Chansey sucks hard on the physical side but nobody is going to let it go. So, You can stall it as well.

Are you kidding me? Chansey is 2hko'd by Low Kick with rocks up. :|


I don't remember the other reasons but, I want to say something related to other pokemon. Mega Sableye, It's hard to predict as well. Prankster before mega evolving and say Hi to Will-O-Wisp. Mega evolves?, You have to swallow the Will-O-Wisp, Rocks, Spikes, Thunder Wave whatever. The only poke that I found as a counter for it is Mega Diance, Bouncing everything and ripping him with Moonblast. But, Nobody is asking for a ban, Didn't they?

Sableye runs essentially the same set all the time, and regardless of the set it has the same counters and checks. :\ Just because "you" cant find more counters, that is your fault. Any fairy, Heatran, Suicune just to name but a few. There are common pokemon that counter it. Greninja requires niche **** to beat it and 2hkos and outspeeds most of the metagame. Sableye doesnt.

Comments in bold

1. Please read my previous post in regards to this, it addresses most of these "claims" https://www.pokecommunity.com/showpost.php?p=8528622&postcount=516

2. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ go here. :\

 

[skyburial]

SuperPower. :\

Focus Blast too. I feel guilt.

 

[halcyonic]

Hey, sorry m8, not all of us want to right 5 paragraphs about disruptive Pokemon and what makes them annoying.

then why make the previous statement anyway -.- "greninja i v fast and it sweeps, totes uber." i fail to see how that is helpful and contributing in any way.

Can I run either one as physical or special? Absolutely, piece of cake. Can a choice scarf change the match up between these two? Definitely.

special garchomp... yeaaa, and can a smart player switch out his eq-weak gren to say, ferro or something else that can eat up an eq or dclaw? yes. unless you horribly overpredict you will definitely switch out and not let gren die. i think i dont have to explain the possibility of fire blast and how you should be smart.

also your comparison of gren to chomp is a horrible on, especially with you saying " does garchomp have prority? nope, gg garchomp." ok srsly wut kind of comparison is that... im just to tired and couldn't be bothered to reexplain as evrything needed to be said has already been said above. and talon uber? lol yep totally bruh

g8 post m8 i r8 8/8

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Greninja eh

Yes

yes bring him in

Mwahahahah.

But on speaking minds - I think it's hilarious not being able to predict something warrants banning it in those certain communities. "I couldn't know ahead of time what my opponent was going to do. That's not fair."

Have you tried doing something your opponent wouldn't know you'd do? No no... that'd be silly.

 

[Zeffy]

But on speaking minds - I think it's hilarious not being able to predict something warrants banning it in those certain communities. "I couldn't know ahead of time what my opponent was going to do. That's not fair."

What makes you think that Greninja's diversity is the main warrant of it being a suspect?

I would honestly appreciate if you could present an appropriate counter-argument, rather than blatantly saying that Smogon's system is "wrong."

 

[Polar Spectrum]

What makes you think that Greninja's diversity is the main warrant of it being a suspect?

I would honestly appreciate if you could present an appropriate counter-argument, rather than blatantly saying that Smogon's system is "wrong."

I was going off of what was said before for greninja about its unpredictability; and I have no counter-argument. Their tiers have an absolutely minimal effect on my competitive pokemon experience, so I speculate from a third party perspective on their bumblings to maintain their ideal meta. Hence my use of 'hilarious' rather than correct or incorrect. I'm no expert on their tears and playstyles.

 

[Dark Azelf]

But on speaking minds - I think it's hilarious not being able to predict something warrants banning it in those certain communities. "I couldn't know ahead of time what my opponent was going to do. That's not fair."

Have you tried doing something your opponent wouldn't know you'd do? No no... that'd be silly.

I think its a very strong pro uber Greninja argument when it 2hkos and outspeeds essentially the entire tier with just its standard moveset alone (Hydro Pump, Ice Beam or Dark Pulse, Gunk Shot, Low Kick) which require ridiculously niche **** like Gastrodon for a start to beat it. THEN you have to worry about its versatility because getting STAB on everything (this is huge) and using HP Fire, Grass Knot, Extrasensory, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, U-Turn. Its pretty ridiculous because all of those are common moves.

Its not about being able to predict something, its the fact that it will cost you pokemon finding out which moves it has AND because its so versatile it makes the game ridiculous because of protean is what distinguishes it from any other pokemon.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

I think its a very strong pro uber Greninja argument when it 2hkos and outspeeds essentially the entire tier with just its standard moveset alone (Hydro Pump, Ice Beam or Dark Pulse, Gunk Shot, Low Kick) which require ridiculously niche **** like Gastrodon for a start to beat it. THEN you have to worry about its versatility because getting STAB on everything (this is huge) and using HP Fire, Grass Knot, Extrasensory, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, U-Turn. Its pretty ridiculous because all of those are common moves.

Its not about being able to predict something, its the fact that it will cost you pokemon finding out which moves it has AND because its so versatile it makes the game ridiculous because of protean is what distinguishes it from any other pokemon.

Dude; I'm really mostly indifferent on this haha. Everything you said there makes a lot of sense to me towards the point of swagon banning it - and again I'm no tear expert - so that sounds pretty compelling to me. I know I've had my fair share of unpleasant encounters with greninja, mainly a battle where it got 8 consecutive flinches on my pokes including 2 crits. Yes; luck hax is completely irrelevant, I know - but my jab at the reasoning behind a ban being based on not being able to easily predict something, wasn't specifically for Greninja anyways. In my opinion any instance of not allowing something to be used in standard play because 'it can't be predicted' is a sorry excuse for eliminating something that's just disliked by the right people in the right places. Banning it because it's too versatile and impossible to manage without making drastically disproportionate sacrifices though - that makes sense.

Again though; on a basest of base levels - I just laugh at how much they're insisting needs to be banned. Regardless of compelling reasons behind it one way or another.

Oh - and I find pictures in places. It's the internet yo; it's full of silly images.

Spoiler:

 

[Zeffy]

Again though; on a basest of base levels - I just laugh at how much they're insisting needs to be banned. Regardless of compelling reasons behind it one way or another.

I find this opinion very ludicrous. It's appreciated, yes, but not in any way helpful in any sort of discussions. u_u

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Yes; I don't mean to derail the current Greninja: Uber or OUer? conversation with that whole tired tirade. On a relevant note however, I would ask if there was anything recently banned that checked or countered Greninja very effectively?

 

[srinator]

mence- say hi to ice beam
mawile- 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 229-273 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

aegi- say hi to dark pulse

all u need is rocks, so i think the answer to ur question is no.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Aegislash can take a Dark Pulse and OHKO, while Mence can play around with SubDD or Choice Scarf. And 248HP Mega Mawile wins no matter how you look at it.