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If I had a dollar for every gender...

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  • Gender is pretty clearly on a wide spectrum.
    Seeing as nonbinary people and entire cultures have existed centuries before the internet exist, reducing nonbinary identities to "something tumblr invented" is not only factually wrong but also pretty erasive and rude.
    I am a nonbinary person. Pretty fluid, to be specific. I don't care if people "understand" our identities, but I do expect them to a civil, nice human being and not reduce us to some troll post on tumblr.

    Being completely honest, I like to think I'm a really open person if only in the sense that I don't really care how a person identifies so long as it's not hurting anyone else. But I do try to understand people who identify as non-binary genders and I'm still drawing a blank. I just don't get it.

    If gender is a social construct, how can genders outside that construct exist?
    If gender is an innate part of humanity, how does a spectrum even function on a psychological level? What's the difference between these non-binary genders and binary ones? etc etc

    If you or anyone else can give an informative answer here, I would be extremely grateful.
     
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  • Being completely honest, I like to think I'm a really open person if only in the sense that I don't really care how a person identifies so long as it's not hurting anyone else. But I do try to understand people who identify as non-binary genders and I'm still drawing a blank. I just don't get it.

    If gender is a social construct, how can genders outside that construct exist?
    If gender is an innate part of humanity, how does a spectrum even function on a psychological level? What's the difference between these non-binary genders and binary ones? etc etc

    If you or anyone else can give an informative answer here, I would be extremely grateful.

    The two poles of the binary are male and female, and non-binary genders fall as some combination of the two or in between the poles on a spectrum. Binary and spectrum are in some ways opposite ideas - binary implies two choices where as a spectrum represents a continuous range of possibilities. As a result, all genders fit inside that construct, are defined in relation to male and female which are two poles of gender, but non-binary people fit in between. That's my understanding of it though, anybody feel free to correct me.
     

    pastelspectre

    Memento Mori★
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  • yes because i'm currently going by genderflux and using they/their pronouns. i don't mind what people identify as, as long as it doesn't hurt them or anyone else. also i'm currently trying to figure out myself gender wise irl.
     
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  • If gender is a social construct, how can genders outside that construct exist?
    If gender is an innate part of humanity, how does a spectrum even function on a psychological level? What's the difference between these non-binary genders and binary ones? etc etc
    This is not the easiest thing to explain. I'm having some trouble coming up with the right words.

    Construct means it's not inherent, but in some way created, right? Maybe it's part socialization, part psychology, part biology, but some element of it is sustained because of choice, because of decisions we make. We can choose to have genders that have not been represented in our cultures before. We can construct gender to fit with our understanding of it. Basically, we can control what gender is and what it means because it's our construct. So to have a nonbinary or genderfluid person is just as acceptable as a female or male person. None is more natural or unnatural than the others.

    Of course we have our cultural heritage, all our history, tapping us on the shoulder and saying "Hey, but wait. Male and female only." We have old science saying that there is only male and female because that's from a time before we even had an idea of psychology, before we understood chromosomes and hormones. We're carrying around this very old idea that gender=sex and that there are only two options.

    Is gender innate to humanity? Maybe. It's certainly a part of culture, and most people are raised within a culture. And humans also have their personal biology (with the hormones and chromosome and sexual characteristics) and that's about as common as having culture. So it's hard to say. What would a group of people raised without sexual organs and without culture think of gender?

    In a way gender is just a social ordering based on characteristics which we loosely group into two categories. We look at people's bodies and say: "You belong in Group A, you belong in Group B." The effect of having this reinforced most of our lives is going to affect how we think of ourselves, how our brains are wired, so it will have a physical affect on us.

    Now, maybe some people will have experiences growing up that are different from the common experience. Maybe some element of their biology (how they develop in puberty, what their genitalia look like when they're born, how their brain chemistry is set up at birth) which will make them not feel like they fit in with the category they're placed into. They'll want to be in the other category, or no category, or a category you didn't conceive of as a possibility. A lot of it comes down to comfort with identity. Lots of people are okay with the idea of being called and thought of a a male or a female. It doesn't bother them because it aligns with their biology/psychology/socialization. It's no problem for them. But not for everyone. And for the people uncomfortable, well, gender isn't necessary, it isn't enforced by some higher power, so why can't it be changed to incorporate everyone if we, as the human race, insist on having and using gender?

    Like, imagine you have a fill out a form and it asks you to state your ethnicity. If the categories are only "white" and "black" and you're brown then what are you going to do? Do you pick one and just hope it'll work out or do you insist on their being another category?
     

    Melody

    Banned
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  • I think a lot of uninformed and/or ignorant people don't understand the modern definition for gender. I don't care what you think about it, because it still stands and is acknowledged by many professionals, so if you want to be up to date and have a coherent conversation, start getting used to that reality.

    That being said, I do believe that two genders dominate: male and female. But, as stated before, gender is psychologically based. Going off of that logic, the only real way to measure gender physically is by observing the brain, which is obscenely complicated and still not fully understood.

    Nothing about our bodies is as simple as people want it to be. Yes, your eyes may be blue, and that's a great way to simplify it, but there are many, many different shades of blue eyes. Some blue eyes also look green, or vice versa.

    So, this generalization is just peachy for a physical attribute that people don't feel the need to get specific about (whenever I've said to someone "you have nice blue eyes" they've never replied "actually, the color is sapphire")

    So here we are generalizing genders, which are psychologically based and therefore very complicated. How could we not expect the "my eyes are actually sapphire" people to revolt?

    Do I think that people are too nitpicky? Yes. Do I think people are too sensitive? Yea. But gender on a psychological level cannot be generalized into two simple options.... That's absurd

    Thank you. I don't agree that people are 'too nitpicky', it's certainly reasonable to expect a new group of people to want to be recognized. They aren't trying to raise a ruckus for no good reason, they have every right to expect to be treated fairly just as anyone else does. In the end a few small adjustments to society need to be made to accommodate; and there's nothing wrong with that. What is being asked for is not earth-shaking or world-ending. It's just the same respect afforded to any human being. What's more; the things that are being asked for aren't just to the benefit of only non-binary people. Even those who are transgender, and are sticking to the binary, are basically suffering similar injustices.

    On the topic of people being sensitive and nitpicky, it's good to remember that one's experiences and interactions are not going to be representative of all people. A lot people seem to act as if all trans and genderfluid people exist solely on tumblr and are 15 years old so they dismiss the idea because their most (in)direct interactions are with young people (who can't really know anything*) on the internet (where everyone just makes stuff up for fun and/or complains about unimportant things*). If they interacted with people in real life they might have a different experience and that might change their views because they would see that different expressions of gender exist in lots of people with varying degrees of sensitivity, but also it would mean they could see perhaps why people act and react the way they do and why one person's "oversensitive" is another's perfectly reasonable reaction.

    *sarcasm

    Exactly; perspective matters in such things. It's wrong that others use their own perspectives to justify erasing the existence of others.

    Yes, because gender =/= sex. What more is there to explain? Non-binary is legitimate, and if people feel a certain gender, then let people identify as they feel. Tumblr didn't "invent" genders, so don't listen to it.

    Also, I'm not a ~special Tumblr snowflake~ or an ~~~~SJW~~~~~, I actually struggle w/gender issues and am working on my gender identity irl.

    I myself have my own struggles too; with my identity. Mostly that's why I identify as genderfluid leaning towards female. I've worked on my gender identity in the past and it's been something that has helped me grow immensely as a person. Currently I am somewhat unable to express my desired identity in the real world; but that's nothing new to me; and I am eternally thankful and grateful that I am genderfluid enough that it isn't as bad as it could be, were I actually a binary transgender person. Still that makes my identity no less valid or important. People need to understand this. It still is soul-sucking; being forced into one box, and sooner or later I will need to move up and out of the situation I'm in that is so confining. And that's something I'm working on; though it has been difficult.
     

    Ninjorf

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  • Can we have 0 genders and just treat everyone with kindness no matter what? Identify yourself however you like, but why does anyone else need to know about it?
     
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  • Can we have 0 genders and just treat everyone with kindness no matter what? Identify yourself however you like, but why does anyone else need to know about it?

    Kindness to everyone is good, but to have no genders we'd have to allow anyone to wear any clothing they want, have any name regardless of whether it's been used only for men or women, use any bathroom they want, date and marry anyone they want. Some people aren't ready for that.

    And if they don't know about the different ways people identify themselves they can react badly when confronted by it. Like, if you don't know anything about trans people then if you interact with such a person you could say a lot of cruel things unintentionally and you could make a lot of assumptions about what they should or shouldn't do based on your (limited) knowledge. Even very good-intentioned, otherwise kind people can be mean in situations that challenge their understanding of the world

    Basically, knowledge and understanding is the road to kindness.
     

    Bidoof FTW

    [cd=font-family:carter one; font-size:13pt; color:
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  • They feel it so of course it's real, dude. Stop being uninformed/and or ignorant. It's 2016.

    Would be pretty neat if I'm like one of those people that think being homosexual is a lifestyle choice and people do actually have smoke for a gender.

    I wasn't sure whether you were trolling or not so I didn't want to respond but looking back on it I felt like I had to. The purpose of this thread was so that I could learn about the subject by looking at some sort of logical composition explaining why it is a legitimate thing. I also thought I'd point out that the whole first line is counter-intuitive, I'm trying to ask questions to understand, but saying things like that just encourages me to stay silent and ignorant bc why should I receive backlash for wanting to learn?

    This is not the easiest thing to explain. I'm having some trouble coming up with the right words.... Long post

    This made a pretty good amount of sense, thank you :)
     
    37,467
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    To me, it mostly seems like a problem with our languages. The language we use these days started off with two gender pronouns. These are, still today, heavily burdened by social expectations and stereotypes. It would be awesome if I could be called "he" but basically act and dress femininely if I wanted to. That's starting to become more accepted in my country these days, but not as fast or well as one could hope for. An alternative solution for those who don't want to conform, is to use other pronouns and gender labels instead.

    If this reasoning is okay, then I can totally agree with the Genderbread chart and accept that people want to label themselves differently than the majority does!
     

    CoffeeDrink

    GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
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  • It would be awesome if I could be called "he" but basically act and dress femininely if I wanted to.

    I just wanted to point something out really quick here. I may not be the most qualified to define gender by far, but a man dressing effeminate is not a gender issue.

    In fact, this type of dress style birthed the term drag queen. Dressing up in girly clothes and makeup doesn't make you something-something gender. It means you're a transvestite.

    I don't know exactly which direction your ship was going there, but I just wanted to point out that cross dressing (from what I understand) has nothing to do with gender identity. And, if it does, what else has changed? Transvestites have been around for a long, long time. So what changed? Are clothes now gender defining? Colors?

    This is all a bit muddied as far as I'm concerned and the picture really isn't getting much clearer for me, unfortunately. So an answer about clothing and stances that view clothing as defining in terms of gender would help alleviate some confusion here.
     
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    I just wanted to point something out really quick here. I may not be the most qualified to define gender by far, but a man dressing effeminate is not a gender issue.

    In fact, this type of dress style birthed the term drag queen. Dressing up in girly clothes and makeup doesn't make you something-something gender. It means you're a transvestite.

    I don't know exactly which direction your ship was going there, but I just wanted to point out that cross dressing (from what I understand) has nothing to do with gender identity. And, if it does, what else has changed? Transvestites have been around for a long, long time. So what changed? Are clothes now gender defining? Colors?

    This is all a bit muddied as far as I'm concerned and the picture really isn't getting much clearer for me, unfortunately. So an answer about clothing and stances that view clothing as defining in terms of gender would help alleviate some confusion here.
    Why do they even need to be labeled as transvestites? Ideally, if someone wants to dress a certain way, then we'd just let them, and don't let it be correlated to gender. Transvestite itself implies that you are doing something "trans"/against what you're "supposed" to do. That's my point.
     

    CoffeeDrink

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  • Why do they even need to be labeled as transvestites? Ideally, if someone wants to dress a certain way, then we'd just let them, and don't let it be correlated to gender. Transvestite itself implies that you are doing something "trans"/against what you're "supposed" to do. That's my point.

    Hey, I don't make the rules. A transvestite is one who wears the opposite sexes' clothing styles. Transvestites are separate from transgender people, so far as I can gather.

    Just because there is a type of gender identity that has been spawned recently does not make them fall into a category they weren't a part of to begin with.

    So, just because a new gender is introduced does not make transvestites or the word transvestite itself disappear. A transvestite just enjoys wearing other styles of clothing, that's all. I think it's a bit more than just having to do with clothing.

    Besides, Transvestites are pretty popular these days. Last time I went to Vegas (June) there were fliers of some kind of drag queen show. Labelling a transvestite as a transgender is incorrect, so far as I gather.

    So Transvestites aren't 'labeled' as you put it. That's what it is. Sure, there are other monikers for the word but it's [the word transvestite] not a bad thing to say transvestite if the word correctly describes the person in question. As far as a label it's like calling a cat a Persian and a salmon a fish. The word transvestite is just a finer precision tool is all. But this is all a huge digression and doesn't really answer my question.


    Sum: Transgender ≠ Transvestite
     
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    Her

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    okay so uhm, to declare. please don't use the word transvestite. that's a slur.. you could use the word cross dresser instead? that's not a slur.

    I've been disinterested in posting in the thread thus far, as PC tends to be the last place I feel like discussing something as intimate to me as gender identity, but I have to clarify.

    It's only an inappropriate term when a trans person's identity is being made akin to transvestism. Similar to saying all transgender people are drag queens or whatever. Otherwise, it's a fine, if culturally outdated term. It makes people uncomfortable due to the sexual connotations given to it nowadays (read: fetish), but this is the first time I've heard it been condemned in all aspects. Like... you don't hear the word often nowadays, but I think it's a bit much to call it a slur outright. Particularly when you consider the idea that many transgender people do first begin exploring their gender identity through transvestism.
     
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  • I've been disinterested in posting in the thread thus far, as PC tends to be the last place I feel like discussing something as intimate to me as gender identity, but I have to clarify.

    It's only an inappropriate term when a trans person's identity is being made akin to transvestism. Similar to saying all transgender people are drag queens or whatever. Otherwise, it's a fine, if culturally outdated term. It makes people uncomfortable due to the sexual connotations given to it nowadays (read: fetish), but this is the first time I've heard it been condemned in all aspects. Like... you don't hear the word often nowadays, but I think it's a bit much to call it a slur outright. Particularly when you consider the idea that many transgender people do first begin exploring their gender identity through transvestism.

    I have to agree here. I've never witnessed the word condemned as such IRL.
     

    zakisrage

    In the trunk on Highway 10
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  • As others have said, gender is a social construct. You can change your gender, but you can't change your sex. Even being transgender doesn't change your sex, only your gender. If you were born female, you're still biologically female, regardless if you're cisgender or transgender.

    Personally, I don't think the modern idea of "nonbinary" carries much weight and it's just another special snowflake idea. Pretty much all "nonbinary" people I've encountered have been on Tumblr or Internet forums - I've known hundreds (possibly thousands) of millennials and never met one outside the Internet that identified as nonbinary (I did meet a transwoman at a convention year ago, though). While third genders have existed in various cultures throughout history, the concept of nonbinary as it's seen on the Internet is very recent.

    The concept on Tumblr also revolves around sexist stereotypes that I thought were considered a product of the past, like assuming a guy is not fully male because he has long hair, likes pink, prefers shojo anime to shonen or seinen, cosplays as female characters, cries a lot, and has a female best friend, or that a girl is not fully female because she has short hair, always wears pants, plays violent M-rated video games, hates dolls, and likes "masculine" sports like rugby and wrestling instead of "safe" ones like figure skating and gymnastics. A man might like dressing in women's clothing and may have fantasies about being a woman but it doesn't automatically mean he's not a cis male. You need legitimate gender dysphoria to be transgender - it's not something you decide to be after a few weeks of being on Tumblr or watching YouTube videos.

    Gender was originally a grammatical term, and until the 1950s it was not used to refer to people. "Sex" is the proper term for whether someone is male or female. Nowadays most people just use it as a euphemism for "sex" because they think sex's only meaning is sexual intercourse.
     
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    Her

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    You need legitimate gender dysphoria to be transgender - it's not something you decide to be after a few weeks of being on Tumblr or watching YouTube videos.

    Just to clarify - no, you don't. That roots it entirely in a medical realm, which trans people have spent many a decade trying to move away from being isolated in. By all means, it's common, but it is not the be all and end all. It is a rather common perspective due to the fact that, disturbingly, the medical profession generally only allows those who have vocalised a distinct identification with gender dysphoria to begin physically transitioning.You can identify as transgender without needing one single determining characteristic to validate your identity in the eyes of others.
     
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  • I must have missed this one. I've been clomping on some people's toes recently and I'd like to either avoid crushing the toes of anyone or crush all of them simultaneously... I guess. I was recently pointed to a video in which the individual claimed to be a transgender person and requested to be called a 'they' pronoun. The individual was becoming belligerent and argumentative, and as far as I can tell, lying through their teeth about being discriminated against legally. The individual claimed to have been denied the purchase of a house due to being transgender, which I find extremely hard to believe given how the sales work in the housing market and the Discrimination act of 1968. In this economy, I doubt you'll find many realtors actually turn down a$10,000 pay day just because someone looks or acts funny. Money doesn't work that way, and if it took place anywhere in the west coast, I find this incident even more difficult to believe. "You're a transgender? Looks like I don't need that $10,000 signing bonus from the likes of you" said no successful realtor ever. Creating a falsity to attempt to cement your claim on being oppressed is not the way to go about things.

    Of course, this is only an isolated incident and I'm certain it means nothing in the long run. Fighting, however, is never an acceptable avenue to speech narrated victory. I wish someone found another term instead of using 'they' or 'them'. It just sounds poor grammatically.

    I don't know whether I believe other genders exist or not, but I don't go out of my way to make or mark issues with anyone. I go about my business and wish everyone did the same.

    However, personally, I feel like if someone is going to be increasingly vindictive and demand that I call them a 'they' while this term is incorrect in several instances and uses (they ignore the word 'you' for some reason and prefer themselves (correct usage, more than two people) a 'they' or 'them' despite being a singular entity. I may become combative. I normally don't ingratiate myself with passers by and don't particularly wish to...

    I'm usually a really accommodating person but if you make your perceived gender, real or imagined, an issue, or if I encounter enough people that maintain that I committed some offence to them, then I will actually go down the alley less traveled.

    I will not bend to their will, and I will not accommodate their request. If they become belligerent enough that they demand I apologize for mistakingly 'labeling' them the incorrect sex or gender in passing... then I will call everyone human, and they will then deal with it as a consequence. As a defence against the bullies on both sides, against the belligerent and snide, I will utilize the term human to its fullest effect and everyone will then have to sit and accept what they have been served due to their own childish behaviour. Everyone gets their just desserts, and if you're not happy or accepting of my own beliefs then you will only have yourself to blame for the resulting and reciprocated behaviour. Calling people 'human' is elitist, crooked and often seems like you're looking down the bridge of your nose, but calling people human is wholly correct 100% of the time.

    Again, I have no issues with the group as a whole. I don't feel the need to step up to them or start a battle for no reason. It is the individuals that I take issue with, and I don't much appreciate getting bullied into something I never intended to go against to begin with. An 'us versus them' mentality is what fuels these conflicts I believe and they go nowhere.

    I don't think anyone should be able to go into any locker room that they choose though. That's a whole different issue entirely, but I don't believe that a building you go into defines you and if you let it have control over you, I believe you get whatever pain and psychological hardship that you create on your own. If you go out of your way by creating issues that aren't issues by badgering strangers than maybe you need to have a look at your priorities and set those straight.

    If it's your mission to make sure that every single human being calls you by your chosen pronoun, it's time to find a new hobby.
     

    AmetsuCAT

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    Gender fluid people are an okay in my book, let people be who they want to be. It's to the point that the person actually believes that they are the opposite sex that somehow bothers me. It makes me think that there is a deeper reason for this, like a disability like ADHD or Autism.

    I'm not saying that they have, but, for example, if I actually thought I was real dinosaur rather than a person I'd definitely need to be sent to the doctor. I'd just more likely to end up sent to an Asylum rather than Psychologist.
     
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    Gender fluid people are an okay in my book, let people be who they want to be. It's to the point that the person actually believes that they are the opposite sex that somehow bothers me. It makes me think that there is a deeper reason for this, like a disability like ADHD or Autism.

    I'm not saying that they have, but, for example, if I actually thought I was real dinosaur rather than a person I'd definitely need to be sent to the doctor. I'd just more likely to end up sent to an Asylum rather than Psychologist.

    There's a very distinct difference between the concept of being trasngender and all that medically, biologically and mentally comes with that and "thinking you're a dinosaur"

    One is a real and acknowledged phenomenon, the other is a hyperbolic example that's analogous to the whole "If GAY people can marry, why can't people MARRY their PETS?!?!?!?!" mentality, just swapping concept of sexuality to concept of gender
     
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