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Abortion

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  • I'd rather not get into a debate about this, considering it's one of those things that no one ever changes their mind on. I'm just gonna post my opinion and leave it at that.


    I am pro choice. I don't really care if you had unprotected sex or not, or if you were raped, drunk, or whatever reason you had sex. If you don't want to have a child, you shouldn't be forced to have one. It shouldn't be too late to change your mind, or stop it from happening, just because you got a plus from pissing on a stick.

    You can do whatever you want, but don't try to force other people to comply if they don't want to.
     

    Arylett Charnoa

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    I'm of the belief that people should have as many freedoms as is possible to give them. If such freedoms don't actively harm another, then I find it reasonable. Even if others may not approve of it, or find these freedoms to be unethical. It's better to give people the option of a decision than to rescind it because you don't approve.

    I understand that it can be nebulous to determine whether or not a fetus is... well, another to be harmed. But the way I see it; a life isn't a life until it's born. This creature within the mother, it isn't capable of sentience or reason. It isn't even capable of what more basic animals are. All it is is potential. A potential life, but not an actual one just yet. The mother (and the father, if he wants to be involved) are the ones who have power over this unborn thing. They are responsible, they are the creators. Their decisions are the only ones that should be relevant, even if it fills one with anger or makes them ethically uncomfortable. The implications of thinking about depriving a potential life of its right to exist is disturbing, I can understand that. But again, that is within the hands of that life's creators. There are plenty of other lives and potential humans being born anyway. It isn't as though that potential human will even be aware of what's been done. It won't have regrets, it won't care if it doesn't get to exist. I wouldn't care if my parents aborted me, after all. Because I wouldn't exist in the first place to care about it.

    It sounds cold and mechanical and I'll admit saying it makes me feel a tad uneasy. But I don't think one should be considered a monster just because they want to make this decision. There are both pros and cons to it. I listed some reasons I see as perfectly valid and justifying doing so in my eyes. But my point is, they should be able to weigh them and make their own choice.

    But yes, I agree with Lunaris Adamantine. I don't really want to get into a debate about this either. Arguing about ethics like this isn't something that will change other peoples' minds. I also just wanted to provide insight into my thoughts and leave it at that.
     
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  • Why is called a double homicide when a pregnant woman is murdered? A fetus is a human being, whether you like it or not.
    Just sayin'...
     

    Her

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    Why is called a double homicide when a pregnant woman is murdered? A fetus is a human being, whether you like it or not.
    Just sayin'...

    Ah, I was wondering how to bring this up.
    In accordance with my previously stated beliefs, I don't think the death of the fetus should be considered a homicide/murder. I think the pregnancy should be taken into account in sentencing, but I don't think it warrants a separate charge or whatever the proper legal term may be.
    Idk - I think the unwanted death of the fetus should be recognised in the punishment considering the mother would have most likely wanted to give birth to a child, but equating its existence with the mother is something I don't agree with.

    Just because something has been established in the past, it doesn't mean it can't be brought up for debate.
     
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    Neil Peart

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  • Of course they're not if you're outright killing them before they're even born. You can twist it as you wish, but the bottom-line is that: you hadn't deny them the right to live, they would've been a person just like you. You're essentially killing them before they can be considered humans, that makes it an okay thing to do? If you could go back in time and abort, therefore killing them, would that be okay?

    So, I guess you'd have a problem with depriving mold the right to grow and proliferate by spraying it with Scrubbing Bubbles then, right? When you say we're killing "them" before they're born, you still have to define what "them" is. You don't seem to be too willing to do that, so I'll try my best: "Them" has not developed the capacity to be conscious, rational, self-motivated, self-aware and morally responsible. Therefore, "Them" is not a person, and ending its biological process is not a crime or morally corrupt.

    TL;DR yes, it's OK to do.

    Why is called a double homicide when a pregnant woman is murdered? A fetus is a human being, whether you like it or not.
    Just sayin'...

    Because a bunch of conservatives got together and passed a bill. It wasn't an impartial decision. Roe v. Wade determined that a fetus is not a "person" under the Fourteenth Amendment. The Unborn Victims of Violence Act was nothing more than a political maneuver by Christian conservatives.
     
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    Jay

    [font=Brawler][color=#91a8d4][i]Here comes the boi
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  • Oh Lord... this old roundabout again... it's always fun to watch people justify and deny the for an unthinking lump with no consciousness its "right to live".

    A fetus isn't a human being... that spider you crushed on your wall has more intelligence, will to live and consciousness then the little human seed that I see so many of you squabbling to protect... but nobody cares about the spider, because the spider isn't technically human. You do not protect these things because of what they are... you protect them because of what you see them eventually becoming. You're whining because someone dropped your egg before you could make it an omelette.

    Look at the mother... a fully developed and living human being. Experiences, memories, relationships... a future, a world that she deserves to line in and belong to. Pro-life is such a silly term because everybody from that party is willing to have this fully grown human, risk their life, their status and their health all to protect something that depending on the stage you deal with it, has as much will to live as one of the mothers organs.

    The pro-life argument is drenched in a wretched sentimentality relating to all that it can vaguely be classified as human. So much so that it aims to protect something that will become human... at the risk of what already is. I don't see any logic behind it.

    The potential of two saved lives... versus the guarantee of one. You can throw in any moral high footing you think you can stand on, but that's what it comes down to. In terms of odds... it's 0-2, versus, 1-1. There are arguments for both sides, but I'd much rather preserve a life that already exists, over risking its destruction because something that doesn't even have the will to live, deserves to.
     

    Nah

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    Really the choice should be left to the pregnant couple. The fetus or eventual child is going to impact them infinitely more than anyone else really. Raising a child is probably one of the most difficult things to do in life, and most couples that want to have children hardly even know what they're doing. Are we really gonna expect people who didn't want to have a kid (right now at least) to be ready to adequately raise a kid? Do we really want to wish that on both the parents and the unborn child? I wouldn't. Are we really going to, like Harley said, punish people (this includes the fetus) for wanting to have sex? And adoption's not some panacea for anything either.

    But this "debate" always ends up boiling down to "b-but it's murder" "b-but it's not" "NUH-UNH" "UH HUH" so idk why I'm even bothering but oh well....
    also we have like 7 billion fucking people on this planet do we really need more

    Time is relative and what is now the present for us, is the past in other parts of the universe. Meaning that the fetus you're trying to abort could be as well an old person by now. It's just a matter of where you see it from.
    johnny are you a tralfamadorian or something
     

    Nah

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    I wasn't actually trying to refute your point(s) with that, I legit was just making a joke and nothing more with that bit
     

    Somewhere_

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  • I am staunchly pro-life, but I have a weird view on it. I want it legal.

    I am actually writing an essay, and abortion is part of the topic, so ill post that here when i finish.
     

    ShinyUmbreon189

    VLONE coming soon
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  • "Them" has not developed the capacity to be conscious, rational, self-motivated, self-aware and morally responsible. Therefore, "Them" is not a person, and ending its biological process is not a crime or morally corrupt.

    Wait, this post is beyond asinine... So you're saying it's okay to kill an infant? Infants don't know about self awareness, rationality, self-motivation, they don't understand anything at that point. So basically what you're saying.. Is.. It's okay to kill them? Even a 2 year old doesn't learn all those thing at that age yet.

    Because a bunch of conservatives got together and passed a bill. It wasn't an impartial decision. Roe v. Wade determined that a fetus is not a "person" under the Fourteenth Amendment. The Unborn Victims of Violence Act was nothing more than a political maneuver by Christian conservatives.

    You really need to stop with this "conservative this conservative that" bullshit it's getting annoying. We get it, you're a full blown liberal. I'm tired of consistently seeing you blame conservatives for everything, and I'm not even conservative. You know, the liberals aren't any better. Both sides are cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
     
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  • Is abortion murder if the baby's in the womb?
    Murder is "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another", and I think abortion does not fit that definition. Murder is usually done with malicious intent, premeditation, "I want to kill someone". If you are killing your baby for the fun of it, it's murder. However, a fetus is arguably not a human to a certain point in development. I think abortion is alright until that certain point. After that point, I feel like there are blurred lines, I personally would disagree with abortion after the second trimester. However, since I am pro-choice, It think it is ultimately up to the woman carrying the baby, and not me.

    If pro choice, in what circumstances do you feel abortion should be allowed?
    I explained above that I personally disagree with abortion after the second trimester (where the baby becomes fully developed), however I also stated that it's ultimately up to the one carrying the baby.

    Why are you pro choice or pro life?
    I am pro-choice because I believe the woman has the right to decide what to do with her body. She is carrying the baby, and it is forming inside her. Thus, it's her choice to do what she wants with it. Personally, however, abortion in the third trimester is something I disagree with.
     

    Her

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    You really need to stop with this "conservative this conservative that" bullshit it's getting annoying. We get it, you're a full blown liberal. I'm tired of consistently seeing you blame conservatives for everything, and I'm not even conservative. You know, the liberals aren't any better. Both sides are cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

    I get what you mean about his post, but I mean, being against abortion is a conservative position, regardless of political affiliation or standpoints on other issues. It's conservative in the very sense of the word - 'traditional values' and the desire to keep to them.
    And while the following act is separate to abortion, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act happened to be largely supported by people who were conservative in beliefs and political standing. It's simply a matter of fact statement he was making.
     

    Neil Peart

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  • Whether or not it can be considered human it's incredibly debatable.

    And until it's human, it's not murder, and it's fine. Don't make me use the mold analogy again.

    Wait, this post is beyond asinine... So you're saying it's okay to kill an infant? Infants don't know about self awareness, rationality, self-motivation, they don't understand anything at that point. So basically what you're saying.. Is.. It's okay to kill them? Even a 2 year old doesn't learn all those thing at that age yet.

    Hey, thanks for playing. All of these things I listed are things that occur at BIRTH. It's not about what they KNOW, it's about the processes within their brains.


    You really need to stop with this "conservative this conservative that" bull**** it's getting annoying. We get it, you're a full blown liberal. I'm tired of consistently seeing you blame conservatives for everything, and I'm not even conservative. You know, the liberals aren't any better. Both sides are cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

    Uh... what other party is constantly trying to deprive women of their right to an abortion? The Donner Party? I couldn't give a shit less what annoys you quite frankly, but if it's the truth that annoys you, I'd suggest a different thread.
     

    Lucid

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    Ive been kind of debating to post this or not for a while now, but I've been lurking and disappointed with some of discussions in these themed topics for a while now. I say that in a sense that people tend to over simplify things when it comes to this subject and miss the mark and this is a matter very personal to me. I don't know.

    I've had an abortion. I was in a 5 year relationship that became very abusive towards the end. My ex punched me so hard in the face that he broke my jaw at one point. When I got pregnant, I didn't think I could. I have blood and hormone issues, I don't ovulate, I shouldn't be able to get pregnant. I got pregnant the week before we broke up and it wasn't consensual sex.

    The first thing I have a lot of issue with with these arguments is that "abortion is fine as long as it's rape" and typically the situation this person presents is a 13 year old getting raped by her uncle or something equally horrible. Spousal rape happens. It happens more then society is willing to believe. By doing are assuming that in a relationship, both people are equal and both have a say so in matters such as birth control, and in abusive relationships, that isn't the case. Just because you're living with a man, police are going to be far more inclined to believe that you've gotten into an argument with your significant other and you're angry and trying to punish them in some way, then he actually did something very wrong and violating.

    I hate the argument that "if you don't want the kid, just put it up for adoption", well okay, it's not that simple either. Since then I've gotten married and had a child and being pregnant isn't as easy as you might think. Because natural child birth is so in vogue, people act like having a baby isn't a big deal. My kidneys almost shut down and I was hospitalized for 10 days half way into my pregnancy with my son. After that my pregnancy was ideal, everything was pretty smooth and I even had my kid the day before my due date. I did however almost bleed to death for no real reason after the delivery. My husband said it looked like someone dropped a Walmart bag of blood on the floor and it took 2 doctors and 3 nurses about 3 hours just to stabilize me. I required blood transfusions after and bed rest and on top of that I had post partum depression to deal with. I don't want to hear anyone put up the argument to just "carry the baby", because you aren't only sacrificing your physical health to do so but your mental health as well, it's no small ordeal to be pregnant, that's why you have so many doctors appointments. PPD will will be a thing if you give the kid up, if you already have any mental illness beforehand or if the child was conceived in a traumatic manner, can you imagine the added stress? Women in the most ideal situations who have never experienced depression or anxiety can suffer horrifically from the craziness that is your hormones and body changes after having a child.

    No one in an abortion clinic is cheerful or feeling awesome. When I went there was a woman there in her 30's who kept loosing her babies in utero around 14 weeks, but her body wouldn't naturally abort them like it was supposed to. There was a woman who had four kids with her boyfriend already and just couldn't feed them anymore and didn't know what to do. I don't think anyone thinks of it as just tossing away a clump of cells. You do see it as giving up a life. Its easy to say "I would never" if you haven't been in that position. It's a very hard thing to go through and not something I'd wish on anyone, but at the same time, to look at the situation rationally, I or any one else should be entitled to the right to choose if they want to be pregnant or not, regardless of the circumstances.

    Pregnancy isn't a punishment for sex. Fertilized eggs aren't people, but the ones who are carying them are and their health and well being should come first. Always. Stop being pro-fetus, and start being pro-woman.
     
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  • Firstly, thank you for being willing to share such personal information. Whilst I may not agree with your stance, I really do appreciate the input from someone who has been there.

    Anyway, I think the situations you were in are still the only two things that could possibly validate an abortion. Whether we like it or not, by the time most people find out they're pregnant a tiny human is already beginning to form. Maybe it's just a cluster of cells, but it is the beginning of a human life and I believe it has the right to life unless at least one of those situations are present, and honestly even then I say this begrudgingly.

    There's a big difference between being raped and/or having your life being in danger and simply not wanting to be a parent. Whether we like it or not, pregnancy is a consequence of sex and if you consensually take that risk you don't have any right to take the life that may result from it. Abortion may not be murder in the strictest sense, but it sure as hell isn't contraception either and I don't want to live in a world where it is acceptable to take a life because you're not capable of handling the results of your decisions.
     

    Pebbles

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  • i have never really given this subject a lot of thought
    BUT i think '' i think '' that people should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies
    incl when it comes down to this

    it cost a hell a lot of money to do it right, so i bet a lot of teenage moms and such do not even have that option although i bet they wish they did because most of the time they do not want to be a mom yet they do badly want to have unsafe sex:|

    anyway, no matter what age.... i think if you are certain you cannot give your child a decent/good future and you have legit reasons to believe that it is better if you do not have a baby..... then i think it is better to not let it happen.... we all know how much of a struggle it is for kids to get adopted, going to a lot of foster homes etc
    a lot of kids do not like that, do they?

    but i am talking about when like the baby hasnt really grown yet, the fetus
    which makes sense because only then you are allowed and is it possible to remove the fetus, correct?
    BUT i'd think if you somehow purposely make yourself have a miscarriage later down the line because you do not want it and all that, i don't know if a lot of people do that....
    that is murder and that is just wrong in my opinion
    because then the fetus was getting there and was like in baby phase already, brains growing and everything else and yeah-_-
     

    Lucid

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    Okay, well, I wanted to add a lot of this in my original post, but cut it out because it was really long winded already and I was anticipating someone to be ugly about all of it

    I kind of want to go into pregnancy for a sec. Contrary to what TV and movies will have you believe, a lot of women find out they're pregnant super early on. Most of the time you'll find out you're pregnant with a home test. You'll call up your OBGYN, and they'll tell you that unless you're having signs of miscarriage like bleeding or horrible pain or symptoms that inhibit your life and you can't function, your first check up will be in a month. Once you do go in, and tell you everything is okay, they'll still say this: "Wait until the first trimester is over before you tell anyone."

    Miscarriages are far more common then anyone thinks and this is why they tell you to wait. You don't typically tell everyone you have a miscarriage because its emotionally devastating and hard and physical and it isn't just one of those things you share. But during the first 12 weeks, which is when abortions occur, the embryo is obviously unable to survive outside it's mother. Abortions happening in the first 9 weeks are no different then taking The Morning After Pill. There's nothing different accept you get some pain medication to go along with it. The result is absolutely no different then a really bad period. These are the most common by a long shot. A really long shot, and I've yet to see anyone argue The Morning After Pill in any of these threads. What they do give you to induce it all is the same medication they prescribe for some stomach ulcers. There is also a process for getting the medication, which includes a psych evaluation, and if your situation is bad enough, you can be assigned a social worker to help you get out of it,. They will give you access to a year's worth of The Pill even if your personal doctor won't prescribe it as well. I also want to point out that while it isn't cheap, there are financial options typically provided for those who can't afford it and that it is affordable. Clinics don't offer the option to abort past 12 weeks into the second trimester, at this point it's illegal unless fetus is dead, failing to thrive or is detrimental to the life of the mother, but if any of those are going on, the abortion has at that point been conceited by a doctor and isn't because the mother has noped out on the pregnancy.

    Here in the US, doing that is illegal, so I also want to make a huge bullet point here for anyone who does the argument for if a child is going to be born disabled it's OK to abort. Physical abnormalities are typically seen much later in pregnancy and the option isn't there unless it's posing a threat to the mother's life. But depending on the Doctor, the option to terminate a pregnancy, even if it kills you won't always be there.

    I also want to stress that just because contraceptions are out there and you aren't being raped, they aren't always an option. Like I said, if you are in an abusive relationship, you probably won't have the option. While I don't want to digress too much, people don't always recognize rape or sexual assault when it happens. Manipulation and conditioning come into the equation a lot in these situations as does normalization of violence. What I recognize now as abuse was just Tuesday afternoon when I was 20. Mental illness and undiagnosed mineral illness of the mother would also be taken into account as the hormones and body changes of pregnancy and birth can effect these easily.

    So while yes, you do technically have access to contraceptions, they aren't always technically an option. This is why I urge everyone to not look at the situation in such a black in white since as "oh I was too dumb to use a condom". There are no shortages of unplanned pregnancies that happen and make it to term, more often then not people just go through with it when this happens.

    My personal belief is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I'm not really inclined to share my own when it comes to these more serious topics, which is why I stay out of this section for the most part. Society has a scientific approach to sex and gender and sexuality at this point, at least more progressive in the past decade or so, and I really hope that in the future people can take that same mindset to procreation as well. I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion as much as I am trying to inform here, as it's a subject I see a large amount of people getting super passionate about when they really just have no idea what they're talking about. Most people's common knowledge of this subject is so outdated by like, 30 years. I know I'm not more then a year or two older then a lot of you guys, but I just want you to know, the whole subject isn't really what you think it is, and that's because people have made it such an ugly and dirty thing to even consider, much less talk about and discuss as adults. The gray area in regards to this is extensive, there's no right or wrong to it, but I encourage everyone to treat it as such. It's a complex issue, please don't oversimplify it, regardless of your moral stance.
     
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  • Abortions happening in the first 9 weeks are no different then taking The Morning After Pill. There's nothing different accept you get some pain medication to go along with it. The result is absolutely no different then a really bad period. These are the most common by a long shot. A really long shot, and I've yet to see anyone argue The Morning After Pill in any of these threads. What they do give you to induce it all is the same medication they prescribe for some stomach ulcers. There is also a process for getting the medication, which includes a psych evaluation, and if your situation is bad enough, you can be assigned a social worker to help you get out of it,. They will give you access to a year's worth of The Pill even if your personal doctor won't prescribe it as well. I also want to point out that while it isn't cheap, there are financial options typically provided for those who can't afford it and that it is affordable. Clinics don't offer the option to abort past 12 weeks into the second trimester, at this point it's illegal unless fetus is dead, failing to thrive or is detrimental to the life of the mother, but if any of those are going on, the abortion has at that point been conceited by a doctor and isn't because the mother has noped out on the pregnancy.

    This. An abortion in the first 7 weeks probably wouldn't be as offensive to most people as they think. Moving past, the fetus starts growing a more human-like face and the idea of abortion starts to become revolting to a lot of people.
     

    Arylett Charnoa

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    Ive been kind of debating to post this or not for a while now, but I've been lurking and disappointed with some of discussions in these themed topics for a while now. I say that in a sense that people tend to over simplify things when it comes to this subject and miss the mark and this is a matter very personal to me. I don't know.
    I can agree with you in that people do have a tendency to simplify things, particularly if they haven't experienced them. That's why I sometimes feel uncomfortable giving my opinion myself on a lot of stuff, because I really don't know very much. And it's also why I do think others who have more experience in these matters should be the ones who this decision of aborting is in the hands of.

    But thank you for providing us with the benefit and knowledge of your experiences. I do wish most discussions about controversial topics could be more like this. More about learning and less about forcing your own personal stance on others. (Not that I'm saying anyone's doing that here - it's been surprisingly civil.)
     
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