Faeries & Lycans [Epilogue]

[Circuit]

The problem I have with you right now Shak, is you are just talking. Talking and talking and talking, but you're not SAYING anything. You're giving us no information to work off of, and are expecting us to take you at your word that you are the Seer Ascendant, despite having claimed this role after someone else already spoke up, gave us information and a reason to believe them (describing the role and how it works). You've given us nothing. I honestly doubt that a role like the investigator would be left unused or unactivated by Day 3, so you saying that being the Seer Ascendant and having no ability is highly unlikely, and you are just trying to get the potentially real Seer Ascendant killed.

And let me make one thing clear to everyone, for clarity's sake. My actions are against Shak, not defending Sonata. My argument does not include me stating that I in any way trust Sonata, but he claims to have an idea, a plan. Which is more than anyone else at this point has offered us really. He knows the risks of claiming to have an important role, but has given us information to go with it. In contrast, Shak has simply claimed to have an important role, to fight against Sonata. Now, should Shak have said role, would it not have been wiser to keep quiet, watch as Sonata inevitably would be proven wrong, watch him die, and then reveal yourself when you have information? Yes, of course, but he didn't. And he hasn't given us anything to go along with his claim of having this role. And that is where my argument finds its basis. In the fact that Shak is creating an argument against Sonata, when it would make zero sense for him to do so, unless he had a death wish. What would be the point? Unless he was fairly certain it wouldn't result in his death. Maybe he presumed we'd all believe him on his word, over Sonata's given information. But this game will not be won if we do not take all the chances to gain information we can.

Whether it is successful or a failure, following Sonata's plan gives us information we need to win this game. Shak does not. He is simply creating an argument for argument's sake at this point, which is not a move to make unless you want us to kill an innocent, especially with the tactic he's taken. No, with this mindset he's taken, I'm fairly certain he is someone of suspicious nature, or just has played this very very badly.

 

[Candy]

Sorry Shak, but at this point I don't know who to believe. I'm just going to vote for the one who I find much more suss than the other. Either way, one of you will die soon if the roles you claim are true.

[BURN] Shak

 

[Sopheria]

Ugh, this is difficult. I'd feel really bad if Sonata gets incinerated and turns out to have been innocent (and I would become suspect #1. Or maybe #2 behind Shak, depending on where the winds are blowing). Ninja Aiden has made a strong case against Shak, and if I were a more fickle person I would change my vote to him. But I'll keep my vote for the time being...

 

[Shak]

The problem I have with you right now Shak, is you are just talking. Talking and talking and talking, but you're not SAYING anything. You're giving us no information to work off of, and are expecting us to take you at your word that you are the Seer Ascendant, despite having claimed this role after someone else already spoke up, gave us information and a reason to believe them (describing the role and how it works). You've given us nothing. I honestly doubt that a role like the investigator would be left unused or unactivated by Day 3, so you saying that being the Seer Ascendant and having no ability is highly unlikely, and you are just trying to get the potentially real Seer Ascendant killed.

And let me make one thing clear to everyone, for clarity's sake. My actions are against Shak, not defending Sonata. My argument does not include me stating that I in any way trust Sonata, but he claims to have an idea, a plan. Which is more than anyone else at this point has offered us really. He knows the risks of claiming to have an important role, but has given us information to go with it. In contrast, Shak has simply claimed to have an important role, to fight against Sonata. Now, should Shak have said role, would it not have been wiser to keep quiet, watch as Sonata inevitably would be proven wrong, watch him die, and then reveal yourself when you have information? Yes, of course, but he didn't. And he hasn't given us anything to go along with his claim of having this role. And that is where my argument finds its basis. In the fact that Shak is creating an argument against Sonata, when it would make zero sense for him to do so, unless he had a death wish. What would be the point? Unless he was fairly certain it wouldn't result in his death. Maybe he presumed we'd all believe him on his word, over Sonata's given information. But this game will not be won if we do not take all the chances to gain information we can.

Whether it is successful or a failure, following Sonata's plan gives us information we need to win this game. Shak does not. He is simply creating an argument for argument's sake at this point, which is not a move to make unless you want us to kill an innocent, especially with the tactic he's taken. No, with this mindset he's taken, I'm fairly certain he is someone of suspicious nature, or just has played this very very badly.

Again though, your argument assumes that Sonata is innocent. Sonata suggests that there are two people we should look at, and he has told us one of those people. What good has him withholding second person done? What good can it do?
Perhaps the reason Sonata felt safe to announce a role is because he is a Lycan and so wouldn't be killed in the night phase. Perhaps he knows that he has the chance to kill two important Havenites before he eventually bites the dust himself.
You say I'm throwing my argument out there and just expecting everyone to follow suit, but right now Sonata currently has the most votes. It's only your words that are making people suspicious of me(Which should be remembered if I die btw)
Revealing my role has saved both Ice and Sopheria for another day.
Sonata claims my role, why wouldn't I be suspicious? Should I let some one claiming my role sit and name-drop havenites that he wants to get rid of?
So far my move has definitely been beneficial, as long as everything stays how it is now. Even if they don't Sonata will be the first solid lead we have(You're welcome)
As both of us have said already, how would it benefit me to challenge some one who's explain their role in such detail, if I wasn't that role? Clearly I feel confident that something good will come out of it, regardless of the result. Where as if I were a Lycan, it would be a huge risk, as only Sonata's death would benefit me.

 

[Circuit]

Ugh, this is difficult. I'd feel really bad if Sonata gets incinerated and turns out to have been innocent (and I would become suspect #1. Or maybe #2 behind Shak, depending on where the winds are blowing). Ninja Aiden has made a strong case against Shak, and if I were a more fickle person I would change my vote to him. But I'll keep my vote for the time being...

If you were a more fickle person? You make it sound like it's a bad thing I'm presenting a better case trying to convince you. Changing your opinion based on a good argument (which I believe mine is at this point) is not fickle at all. Quite the contrary, not changing in the light of a good argument is actually quite arrogant. As such, at this point you're either:
A) Quite arrogant and are just unwilling to listen to a good case or,
B) Are indeed a member of the Lycans and are trying desperately to save your skin by killing off Sonata

Now point A is quite insulting, and not the point I would ever want to throw out first, which is why not changing your vote away from Sonata leads me very strongly to point B. You do realise that if Shak dies, and is indeed the Seer Ascendant as he claims, you're off the hook right? Obvious choice for your survival. You too are either lycan, or playing this badly at this point. You could improve your situation a whole lot by simply not voting Sonata. That reduces the chance of you, in my eyes, becoming a prime suspect of being a Lycan. But I'm not here to play your game for you, I'm simply telling you that if you are innocent, you're playing badly along with Shak, which would be a little weird for a suspect to suddenly mess up like this. I'm sorry, but your vote and the behaviour are not improving your situation in the slightest.

Again though, your argument assumes that Sonata is innocent. Sonata suggests that there are two people we should look at, and he has told us one of those people. What good has him withholding second person done? What good can it do?
Perhaps the reason Sonata felt safe to announce a role is because he is a Lycan and so wouldn't be killed in the night phase. Perhaps he knows that he has the chance to kill two important Havenites before he eventually bites the dust himself.
You say I'm throwing my argument out there and just expecting everyone to follow suit, but right now Sonata currently has the most votes. It's only your words that are making people suspicious of me(Which should be remembered if I die btw)
Revealing my role has saved both Ice and Sopheria for another day.
Sonata claims my role, why wouldn't I be suspicious? Should I let some one claiming my role sit and name-drop havenites that he wants to get rid of?
So far my move has definitely been beneficial, as long as everything stays how it is now. Even if they don't Sonata will be the first solid lead we have(You're welcome)
As both of us have said already, how would it benefit me to challenge some one who's explain their role in such detail, if I wasn't that role? Clearly I feel confident that something good will come out of it, regardless of the result. Where as if I were a Lycan, it would be a huge risk, as only Sonata's death would benefit me.

My argument totally does not presume Sonata is innocent, but simply is a counter to your rather pathetic way of arguing, which isn't really arguing at all. Arguing involves taking your opponent's point, picking the flaws in it, and returning your own argument, based with facts. You haven't does that at all. You've simply stated that our arguments are wrong, and that is it. That is where my arguments are coming from, along with the big flaws in your arguments, which you have very consistently neglected to address, and which still stand even now, and anyone still supporting you and lynching Sonata are very misguided.
Yes you are throwing your vote out there, and expecting everyone to follow suit, and they are, because that's what people do. And the people that have followed you become both suspicious and not suspicious for doing so. But your attack on Sonata has no grounds, other than your claim to have the same ability that Sonata does, even though he said it first, and only after he revealed did you find it necessary to reveal your role.
This presents its own problems for you, as it was a very ill thought-out idea, and only serves to work against you, and here is why: By revealing your role you don't save anyone. MI was never going to die tonight in the first place. Fact. He would never have garnered enough votes to kill him had you not revealed, so you didn't save him at all. And if Sonata dies and is innocent and/or revealed as the Seer, you then will have still caused the death of an innocent. If Sonata dies and is guilty, you WILL be killed by the Lycans, if they have any sense whatsoever and hence an innocent dies, and you don't even get to use your power. Hence your so-called intervention doesn't actually reduce the number of innocent deaths whatsoever.
But you don't even know what your power does. At Day Three. When the Seer Ascendant's power will most definitely have been activated by the GM, otherwise what is the point in the role? That is very unbelievable.
If everything stays as it is now, we will have NO leads after today, since the only person offering us a plan or a way to move forward is SONATA. You're not doing that, as a claimed Seer Ascendant, and no one else seems to want to share information or give other ideas, so should Sonata die and be found guilty, that's it. Back to square one, we vote for someone random based on a joke or a guess, and more innocents will inevitably die.
Yes, if you actually had the role, you would benefit a lot from this should you be right. And being a Lycan and coming out with this argument is a huge risk, and therefore very ill-advised. But that's the kind of double bluff I'd expect to see verbally announced from said Lycan, to try and convince everyone he wasn't a Lycan, because this plan would be bad for him. Then everyone agrees, joins you, and wait, this bad plan for a Lycan is actually a good one.

Mafia is like a chess game. You've got to constantly keep ahead of everything the opponent could do to win, identify it, and prevent it. Sure Sonata could be a Lycan too, but the way to prevent him from doing any lasting damage as a Lycan, is to follow his plan for now, until he messes up and we can easily kill him. If he consistently kills Lycans, then he's doing us a favour, and we can easily control the game from there. If you are innocent, you are not thinking about how best to play this game to win, and are looking only to claim glory of your role, and the spotlight. If you're the Seer Ascendant and Sonata is not, you should have kept quiet. You didn't, now you are almost guaranteed to die soon.

 

[Sopheria]

If you were a more fickle person? You make it sound like it's a bad thing I'm presenting a better case trying to convince you. Changing your opinion based on a good argument (which I believe mine is at this point) is not fickle at all. Quite the contrary, not changing in the light of a good argument is actually quite arrogant. As such, at this point you're either:
A) Quite arrogant and are just unwilling to listen to a good case or,
B) Are indeed a member of the Lycans and are trying desperately to save your skin by killing off Sonata

Now point A is quite insulting, and not the point I would ever want to throw out first, which is why not changing your vote away from Sonata leads me very strongly to point B. You do realise that if Shak dies, and is indeed the Seer Ascendant as he claims, you're off the hook right? Obvious choice for your survival. You too are either lycan, or playing this badly at this point. You could improve your situation a whole lot by simply not voting Sonata. That reduces the chance of you, in my eyes, becoming a prime suspect of being a Lycan. But I'm not here to play your game for you, I'm simply telling you that if you are innocent, you're playing badly along with Shak, which would be a little weird for a suspect to suddenly mess up like this. I'm sorry, but your vote and the behaviour are not improving your situation in the slightest.

I don't think your reasoning is as bulletproof as you fancy it. That entire argument hinges on the assumption that my primary concern is "improving my situation", as it were. It's really not though.

As far as I'm concerned, it's basically a toss up between Shak and Sonata. We can disagree on how strong either case is, but I think we can essentially agree that one of them is a Lycan. So if one turns out to be innocent, then we can be pretty confident about the guilt of the other. That's true regardless of who we vote for, so there's nothing really to be gained by changing my vote, other than potentially improving my own chances of survival, which like I said, I'm not as concerned about as you're assuming. I just don't want the Lycans to win, and if my death can supply more valuable information to keep that from happening, then so be it.

So just as before, my vote stands.

 

[Shak]

Well that was long, but hopefully this clears up any misconceptions about my argument

Spoiler:

My argument totally does not presume Sonata is innocent, but simply is a counter to your rather pathetic way of arguing, which isn't really arguing at all. Arguing involves taking your opponent's point, picking the flaws in it, and returning your own argument, based with facts. You haven't does that at all. You've simply stated that our arguments are wrong, and that is it.

Okay, I'll give it a go 'arguing correctly' I'll break down what you've said and say why it's not as solid as you seem to believe. For the most part I've been too lazy to break down every little flaw in your elaborate argument, but I've found myself the patience.
Clearly I'll be repeating myself a lot since your own argument is simply 'you have no proof, while Sonata has a nicely worded example that came first'.

Yes you are throwing your vote out there, and expecting everyone to follow suit, and they are, because that's what people do. And the people that have followed you become both suspicious and not suspicious for doing so.

So I have been successful in my 'half-hearted' attempts to 'fool' the majority. If that's all I did, why were so many people convinced? Do you really believe that people are blindly following me on a Sonata lynching quest? Clearly they must've had their own suspicions to follow such a 'mediocre argument'. If they had their own suspicions, Sonata must have done suspicious things.
Now lets evaluate Sonata's reason for wanting to Lynch Sopheria....'That being said, if you will trust me and vote with me then I will reveal in the last minutes of the day phase.'
That's a direct quote. You can go back and find it of you want, but honestly its the only 'useful information' he uses to support his claim.
This is based on nothing, he simply say's it. Then he leads on to claim a role

Quote originally posted by Seer Ascendant:
The apprentice and destined successor to the current Seer. As they're a novice clairvoyant under the tutelage of an imperfect oracle, they're not typically permitted to utilize their powers as their sight is inordinate and the strain could prove too much for them to handle. Under dire circumstances, such as the untimely demise of the current Seer, the Seer Ascendant could be counted upon to act as Haven's spiritual leader and visionary.

No one recognises this as legit. Sonata himself directed me to this message, which I decided to check out. I was inclined to believe it having forgotten my role(Since in has no night capabilities, and acts as a normal elf) But I felt the need to check my own role only to find out it's exactly the same as the one Sonata claims. So of course, I call him out. You then lead on to immediately jump to his defence, claiming every part of his claim is believable.
And according to you now, 'everyone who has voted for Sonata is both suspicious and not suspicious'? Why is this? They're suspicious because they've done something not suspicious? This makes absolutely no sense. They have voted on the basis that they don't believe your rant on why Sonata's claims 'sound legit'.

But your attack on Sonata has no grounds, other than your claim to have the same ability that Sonata does, even though he said it first, and only after he revealed did you find it necessary to reveal your role.

My role has no night abilities, and useless unless the original Seer dies. So what reason would I have for revealing it? Sonata's claim to the role made me more suspicious of him than I was before. You advise that I wait for him to slip up, before taking action and trying to get him lynched? How could him surviving possibly have helped us, as I've said before he would've just killed more innocents?
I'm under no impression that Sopheria is innocent.(Although Sonata being a Lycan would make that a very likely conclusion at this point)

This presents its own problems for you, as it was a very ill thought-out idea, and only serves to work against you, and here is why: By revealing your role you don't save anyone. MI was never going to die tonight in the first place. Fact. He would never have garnered enough votes to kill him had you not revealed, so you didn't save him at all. And if Sonata dies and is innocent and/or revealed as the Seer, you then will have still caused the death of an innocent. If Sonata dies and is guilty, you WILL be killed by the Lycans, if they have any sense whatsoever and hence an innocent dies, and you don't even get to use your power. Hence your so-called intervention doesn't actually reduce the number of innocent deaths whatsoever.

How do you know Ice wouldn't have died? Fox's death was based on a joke, so why couldn't the same happen to Ice? Again this is assuming Ice is an innocent.
Sonata claimed to be the Seer Ascendant, so why would I consider him being the Seer. I'm not out to become the Seer, as that wouldn't benefit the Haven in any way.
I am the Seer ascendant. I act as an elf until the Seer is dead, meaning if the Lycans kill me after Sonata's death they will have killed a havenite without a night ability. In other words I'm risking my own life in order to kill some one who has given me a solid reason to believe they are not a Havenite. Is that so wrong?
You'll actually find it does affect the number of innocents that die. If I stop an innocent from getting voted because of Sonata's(the guy who has claimed the same role as me, making him look like a Lycan) influence, and instead have Sonata get voted, that means a Lycan and an innocent get killed
1 Lycan + 1 Innocent =1 Innocent
1 Innocent + 1 Innocent=2 Innocents

But you don't even know what your power does. At Day Three. When the Seer Ascendant's power will most definitely have been activated by the GM, otherwise what is the point in the role? That is very unbelievable.

The role is activated when the first Seer dies. I've said this already :|

If everything stays as it is now, we will have NO leads after today, since the only person offering us a plan or a way to move forward is SONATA. You're not doing that, as a claimed Seer Ascendant, and no one else seems to want to share information or give other ideas, so should Sonata die and be found guilty, that's it. Back to square one, we vote for someone random based on a joke or a guess, and more innocents will inevitably die.

This part is just nonsensical. You are basically saying that you'd rather follow the plan of some one who might be trying to kill you, than not have a plan. We look for lead to find the Lycans. So why not take the chance to kill them when the chance arrives? Or would you rather wait for two plans to kill the same people? Meanwhile he kills Havenites.

Yes, if you actually had the role, you would benefit a lot from this should you be right. And being a Lycan and coming out with this argument is a huge risk, and therefore very ill-advised.

I know I have the role, I'm already half way there. The only question here for me is-Can there be two Seer Ascendants? I don't think so

But that's the kind of double bluff I'd expect to see verbally announced from said Lycan, to try and convince everyone he wasn't a Lycan, because this plan would be bad for him. Then everyone agrees, joins you, and wait, this bad plan for a Lycan is actually a good one.

You contradict yourself here. You say you want some one to give you a plan and drive you forward, but when I offer that you say I'm playing a double bluff. Where's the consistency?
I still don't see how this would be a good plan for me. If I were a Lycan I'd be voted the very next day, should Sonata be proven innocent in death. Whereas as a Havenite, my innocence in death will have Sonata killed, and since I believe he's a Lycan this is a good thing

Mafia is like a chess game. You've got to constantly keep ahead of everything the opponent could do to win, identify it, and prevent it. Sure Sonata could be a Lycan too, but the way to prevent him from doing any lasting damage as a Lycan, is to follow his plan for now, until he messes up and we can easily kill him.

We can kill him easy by voting for him in numbers. We can't kill him easily if we let him pick us off one by one.

If he consistently kills Lycans, then he's doing us a favour, and we can easily control the game from there.

How and why would he kill his fellow Lycans?
This seems complete nonsense to me. 'If he consistently kills his fellow Lycans'-What if he doesn't. surely that's more likely anyway

 

[Etherion]

 

[Nathan]

This thread needs more tl;dr ;;

 

[Sonata]

This thread needs more tl;dr ;;

tl;dr I am seer ascendant, Shak could be a second seer ascendant or a suicidal lycan, but claims to have no abilities yet even though I (the seer ascendant) have been given information. My role gives me clues and these clues point towards Sopheria. Shak is trying to kill me, I'm trying to kill a lycan, and Shak and NinjaAiden are fighting about why shak isn't doing a very good job at this game.

 

[Yukari]

Something along those lines at least.

 

[gimmepie]

Right then.

Personally, I think that both Shak and Ninja Aiden have fairly shaky arguments. There is some degree of logic to both arguments but all in all it's basically a case of he said/she said (except with two guys).

To me the most logical path right now seems to be the one in which we remove a potential threat as well as validate/invalidate Sonata and Shak's claims without risking losing a seer ascendent.

Sopheria has been claimed a threat by Sonata who says he is the Seer Ascendent.
Shak is saying that Sonata is a lier and that he is really the Seer Ascendent.

So if we burn Sopheria and she is innocent, we will know we can trust Shak and that Sonata is a lier and we'll minimise our chances of killing a beneficial role. If Sopheria turns out to be guilty in some way, then we eliminate a threat and we know that Shak should be our next target (unless of course Sopheria is the cultist in which case we can assume Shak to have been under influence but freed after that). Again, though with far less a chance of causing us harm.

Killing Sopheria is the smartest way to go. It will give us the answer we need without risking accidentally killing our Seer Ascendent.

[Burn] Sopheria

Also before someone jumps on me, I am aware that this differs somewhat from what I said in my last post. Cut me some slack though my logic is somewhat stronger when it isn't 3:00am.

 

[Nakuzami]

Okay

 

[Juno]

Honestly, even after reading Aiden's defense/interpretation, I can't really buy Sonata's version of the role. Yes, riddles are hard, but it would seem a bit unbalanced if both the Seer and Seer Ascendant are allowed to actively investigate/have indirect 'visions' at the same time. Shak may not be the best debater, but I still think his description of the role fits the OP's more - that he's kind of a 'backup' investigator if the Seer dies. Keywords 'successor' and 'untimely demise' of current Seer.

gimmepie's proposal also makes sense to me since I don't know who to trust. It sounds kind of mean to sacrifice Sopheria, and a waste of a life if she really is innocent, but knowing her alignment for sure will give us a clearer idea of who is lying. And it's the best way to do it without potentially killing the Seer Ascendant, whoever it may be.

Only problem with that is Sonata already claimed, early on, that his vision gave him two leads and it was between Sopheria and one other person, so he has an easy out/answer even if Sopheria comes up innocent. :s And that's another issue I have with his role claiming - I don't know if this has been cleared up yet, but he said he won't reveal what his other lead is until later today? Not sure why that is.

Soo, I kinda want to hear what that's about first before I vote, but I'm leaning towards Sonata. How much time is left, Naku?

 

[Sonata]

I'm saving the other one for the end of the day because I honestly can't figure out which it is. It's a tossup between 3 people, but they haven't done much posting in here and so I was waiting to see how they react during this day phase so that I could try to figure some of it out. I wouldn't want to claim that someone is innocent because if I'm wrong then they'll just get ignored. If it turns out I'm wrong (which is entirely possible with the way my role works) and the person I claim is innocent turns out to actually be a lycan, then that just gives them a free pass. That really would not be helpful to the havenites cause.

 

[Austin]

I really don't want to have to read all of this. ;___;

so random vote, i'm sorry

[Burn] Sopheria

 

[Klippy]

I trust Sonata more than Shak, but now we're also adding in Sopheria to this vote. Ugh! You guys make this hard, haha. I honestly believe we're being bamboozeled by the Lycans. All three of them are innocent OR one is a secret role. I really think this is some trick and we've fallen into it, but...

[Burn] Sopheria

When it comes down to it, we have the least to lose with her being burned if she's innocent. We have two claims of Seer-ship and it might be better to not risk either.

 

[mishy.]

ughhhhh why you guys do this.

[burn] Sopheria

basically for the reasons klippy mentioned above. :x

 

[Candy]

Holy cow, it's now 6 : 6 : 5 for Sopheria : Sonata : Shak

Y'know, I'm gonna tip the balance here so...

[BURN] Sopheria

It seems like the most logical choice right now. Lynch either Sonata or Shak and we might lose our Seer Ascendant during the day phase.

 

[Nakuzami]

How much time is left, Naku?

um well this is the first time I've really been on a computer in two days . . . and now I want to go to sleep . . . but there's still something I planned to do for this day phase . . . so . . . a little bit, haha