Is PC for Beginners? Should It Be?

[Kikpanther]

I think the answer is yes it is and yes it should be. However, I don't think PC likes to behave like a space for beginner RPers. Instead, we have a lot of advanced RPs that intimidate our less skilled members and make it hard for them to improve and branch out. The beginner RPs that we DO have are either poorly made so no one wants to join them, die off quickly, are not properly advertised as such, or act as a black hole where none of the beginner RPers on PC escape (*coughcough*PTA*coughcough*).

The RPC community seems small, but in reality I don't think it is. We have a lot of RPers that are unknown to the forum because they are afraid to or are unwilling to branch out of the one RP they found themselves comfortable in. That honestly doesn't work. That is not how a community should work. Intentional or not, I feel as though RPC is not as welcoming as it used to be. There is an air of elitism and clique-ishness here that says "if you're not in the group, you're not in anything". There is an implication in PC that if you don't come in with or have a group of friends to RP with then you're not going to have many chances to RP period. If you don't feel like this then tbh there's a 90% chance you're in one of these groups.

RPC is meant to be and should be open to all kinds of players no matter how good or bad they are. Yet, there doesn't seem to be a lot of encouragement. Very little RPs made for beginners, very little resources that help unskilled writers get better, and very little confidence boosting for RPers who don't think they can join an RP because they don't think they're good enough for it. There's also very little encouragement for people who join and make RPs for the same people over and over again to try and branch out and meet new RPers and RP with new people.

Honestly, I think this is something that we can and should fix, but it takes a lot of effort on the part of the leadersip (the mods) and the community (the RPers) to get together and try to make this hapen.

 

[gimmepie]

I'm inclined to disagree. Whilst I can see why some of us come of a bit cliquey since we talk a lot on Skype there's plenty of RPs here that are perfectly open to people who are newer to roleplaying and I know that the majority of us who GM do our best to help beginners rather than chase them out. In fact, there's actually been quite a few newer RPers/GMs come into the RPT. Off the top of my head LinearAxel, JohnnyMustang, Merlin, Milotic and desinishon are all newer to the corner and they aren't the only ones.

I guess, aside from some of us being really close friends, I just don't see where you're coming from at all. I think that the RPT has become a lot less elitist in recent years and I know for a fact that most of us are thrilled to see new faces around here.

 

[FireSnow]

I'm sorry you feel this way. I do agree with you to a point that it can be very intimidating for new RPers to branch out and RP like the way they want to. But I can say that I used to be one of the new members, and still am really, and can say that I really enjoy it here. One just has to feel confident in their writing but be open to feedback. I can say that I really appreciate several members who have been GMs or just members in a skype chat for giving me advice on my writing. My first ever post was absolute trash when i made it, but I like to think I have made progress and I thank the people I've RP'ed with for being the reason. Something as simple as reading their posts has been a major reason for my writing getting steadily better.

I don't get the clique vibe at all. I get more of the "long time members who talk with each other a lot and have become friends" vibe. I know that if i asked for help, more than enough members here in the RP section would be happy to help.

As fort those who aren't as good at RP'ing, I feel I can say on behalf of the RP community, and for sure myself, that we would be happy to help them out in their writing. I understand feeling scared or nervous about asking for help from such good writers but we are all extremely nice and want this community to be great.

Anyways I again am sorry that you feel this way. If there is anything I can do to help, reach out to me!

That goes for any member that feels their writing is not as good. No one should feel bad about their writing. It's one of the greatest stress relievers I've found and a lot of fun to immerse yourself in your own and other's stories! :)

 

[Quest]

I am going to be entirely honest. I agree with Kikpanther in many aspects of their post, though I believe they did word some things rather awkwardly looking back on it.

There is a distinction on the RPT that sets apart beginner style RPs from that of advanced RPs. It may not be noticed by many, but its there. Its not necessarily a barrier of skill and length, but also how attractive the RPs can appear to a person just getting into the writing scene. Beginners will not post in 'advanced' RPs, even if their grammar and writing style are well enough to get by.

Yes, I know for a fact that many, if not most, of the RPers here would love to help. Hands have been reached out before, just as Gimme said.

Now, I agree that there is a clique, though this isn't necessarily a bad thing. A lot of time, I see a RP mentioned in the skype group targeted towards the GMs particular group of friends. Its mentioned there, and as soon as its posted, the skype chat is blown up with the news that its been accepted and the friends of the GM flock into RESERVE their spot.

This stops a lot of beginners from getting the chance to get in the RP when there is limited spots. Hell, when there isn't, the fact that a large group whom have obviously RPed together for awhile coming into a thread can intimidate literally anyone. I wouldn't really say this is a problem in its entirety, but it is a thing that has been happening a lot recently and needs to be addressed.

There's also very little encouragement for people who join and make RPs for the same people over and over again to try and branch out and meet new RPers and RP with new people.

This is the main problem caused by it. I dare you to go through the RPs on this forum. See who's in them. How many times did you see the exact same names in several? How many times did you see someone newer to the forum?

 

[moon]

I don't have time to write a lengthy response right now, but just addressing one of Quest's points: what do you suggest we do about the "flocking to reserve" thing, then? I don't see how we could forbid friends to RP together, and I also don't think it sounds reasonable to try and do that. However, as a GM myself, I recognize the scenario and have been wanting to get more new faces in. I think rather it's up to the GM what people to let in to the RP than something we need to officially regulate though? People here are responsible. People can be responsible GMs. Or maybe that's what you were trying to get at; the mindset of GMs needs to change?

 

[Quest]

Obviously, the banning of friends from RPs would destroy the RPT. Something like that cannot happen. I would say something needs to be done in a similar fashion to how you put it. Its up to the GM.

I, on one hand, despise the fact that reservations are a thing. As I said before, it blocks off newer members AS well as people who may offer more to that specific RP. On the other, I'm not saying reservations need to not become a consistent thing, I enjoy the fact that when I'm busy I can come back around another time to finish my character sheet.

I agree that the mindsets of GMs need to change. Though, I'm not entirely sure how. That's something up for debate. If people know there's an issue, they can work to fix it.

 

[gimmepie]

I don't think that the mindset of GMs needs to change at all. When I started Gunpowder a bunch of people who had never RPd before in their lives, who had been missing for ages or who had not RP'd much before joined. As we wrote together we got closer and now those guys are the regulars that you're talking about (well Titans helped too but you know what I mean).

 

[GreyBidoof]

I'm busy trying not to rip my keyboard in half because I just lost my 1k word response to the OP. It was nice, but I'm not writing that out again. :'(

All I'm going to say is, if anyone would like an example of how an RP community is built, look up an RP called Titans. It was made this previous year, by myself, and I was very new to the RPC at the time. Almost none of the users that signed up knew each other in the beginning, with a few exceptions. We had mods, newbies, old-timers, and lurkers. The RP didn't last very long, but I talk to almost every one of those people now somewhat regularly.

That's how it should be. People RP together, and build communities. People shouldn't be afraid to try new things, and they shouldn't keep people from trying them.

 

[moon]

The RPC community seems small, but in reality I don't think it is. We have a lot of RPers that are unknown to the forum because they are afraid to or are unwilling to branch out of the one RP they found themselves comfortable in. That honestly doesn't work. That is not how a community should work. Intentional or not, I feel as though RPC is not as welcoming as it used to be. There is an air of elitism and clique-ishness here that says "if you're not in the group, you're not in anything". There is an implication in PC that if you don't come in with or have a group of friends to RP with then you're not going to have many chances to RP period. If you don't feel like this then tbh there's a 90% chance you're in one of these groups.

RPC is meant to be and should be open to all kinds of players no matter how good or bad they are. Yet, there doesn't seem to be a lot of encouragement. Very little RPs made for beginners, very little resources that help unskilled writers get better, and very little confidence boosting for RPers who don't think they can join an RP because they don't think they're good enough for it. There's also very little encouragement for people who join and make RPs for the same people over and over again to try and branch out and meet new RPers and RP with new

Firstly, it's the RPT, Theatre now, not Corner (;

Secondly, it worries me that you feel that this place is cliquey. We are a huge community of regulars, who spread out nicely over the ten or so RPs that are relatively active at any one time. You become part of a "group" by joining a RP. Anyone can join a RP, hence anyone can become part of a group. The only way I can think of that we might come across as cliquey at times is what I touched on earlier, about friends joining each other's RPs. Which is hard (and maybe not even good) to prohibit. You should be allowed to join any open RP and become part of that group, possibly with affiliated dedicated skype group. If this is not how things are, then we do have a problem to look at, indeed.

Apart from that, I agree with Johnny. Some people get along, others don't. Groups of friends isn't automatically a clique, as long as they are willing to let others get a shot at being part of them, I'd think?

Thirdly, we have the Starting Pad filled with guidance, hints and help, and a place to ask questions should there be any. On top of that, I think in general GMs have been very willing to help and guide newcomers (and even encourage them to join things) lately. Or actually, not even lately. Always. I might be blinded somehow, but I have never (in the last 5 years at least) felt like people can't get help here if they seem to need it. Remember how people almost literally jumped at a chance to greet a newcomer and provide help when they poked their face into the old Roleplay Discussion thread? c:

As for people who join and create RPs with the same RPers over and over again, that is really up to the RPers themselves. Which I also touched on in my previous post. We can't police the wants and preferences of people, only do our best to cater for as many wants and preferences as possible.


It might sound as if people are attackinf Kikpanther's opinions here o: that's surely not the intention. But it seems like a lot of people disagree with the OP's thoughts being existent problems. You're free to strike up a convo with me on Skype if you feel like elaborating on all this in another medium, Kik (: but I think many appreciate seeing the discussion here!

 

[GreyBidoof]

I realized that in my short little summation I left out a few of the key points I wanted to make previously, before Chrome ate my response.

In the spirit of keeping things constructive, I think we should focus on what we can do to make the RPT better, as well as addressing any problems that may arise. My suggestions:

- To me, it sounds like people just need to talk more. More communication, more opportunities for discussion, etc. This includes private conversations as well.

- Second, I've heard divided opinions on this, but possibly someone experienced could run an "Intro to Roleplay" type RP, (as opposed to just writing it off as a beginner RP, which for some reason has a negative connotation for most) where people could learn about how we roleplay here in a less intimidating format, or just work on improving their writing skills. It could be open to everyone, that way people who already have experience could join with the intent of making connections with some newer faces. Just a thought.

- Just wanted to add that it's I believe it's sort of healthy for someone to bring up this kind of thing once in a while. It forces us to look at ways we can improve the RPT, and addresses possible concerns that people may have. Hopefully we never become a community where people are discouraged from sharing their constructive opinions.

 

[Winter]

i'm sorry i had to XD​

NGL I empathise with the OP on a certain level. When I first came back to PC's roleplaying scene in 2015, I did feel a little left out and had that "the newbie" feeling stuck on my head. I mean, with stuff like Titans collab (in which almost everyone was involved in), people constantly discussing ideas about JPs, and veterans having many nostalgic trips, it was easy to feel excluded (not to mention timezones and other factors). But then I realized that it was me, where the issue lied. I wasn't being proactive myself. Sure, the RPT community may feel a little "clique-y" but I fail to see where there is an elitist atmosphere (and trust me, I know about elitism; the community was way worse in 2010/2011 *coughRPAcough* which was why I left). I was not shunned from the community despite only having signed up for one roleplay, nor did my freshness prove to be a problem with future roleplay signups. Honestly, when I began to participate more and become more active in getting to know the people, it felt as though I was already old friends with them and that I was merely reunited. It is human nature to group together and have some sort of common identity; there is no way to stop such a behaviour. As long as healthy relationships are being forged, I fail to see a problem. I think I can safely say that nobody here wants to feel excluded and nobody here wants to make others feel excluded, especially in a setting that thrives on inclusivity. [That being said, it's counterproductive waiting for someone to extend an invitation (which may also be seen as imposing) if one is reluctant on coming out of their shell.] To echo gimmepie, the RPT has been seeing a stream of new faces, and it doesn't hurt that we have a little alliance with the WoPC forums. :D

To directly answer the thread title, I'd say no. This isn't a place for beginners. There are no "beginners" here. Nobody is "more/less advanced"than anyone else here. To judge and compare one's writing with another, is an act of conceitedness. There is no way one can define solidly what a "beginner" or an "advanced" roleplayer is. A "beginner" roleplayer may have plenty of experience being a solo writer and merely wanted to taste the art of collaborative writing. And to categorize roleplays like that is to restrict creativity, as well as further divide the community. I've seen this kind of thing done before, in Marriland's roleplaying forums (iirc; they no longer have such a thing, I wonder why) and RoleplayerGuild. It's not really welcoming to say the least...

NGL, it's very easy to criticize something, but it's very hard to actually do something. I am guilty of that myself. If you want more "beginner RPs", why not make one yourself, rather than deflect responsibility onto others? I like to think that the current mod team is doing a fine job running the RPT, and thus, perhaps the question to be asked is, is there a demand for "beginner" roleplays? Food for thought.

There is an implication in PC that if you don't come in with or have a group of friends to RP with then you're not going to have many chances to RP period. If you don't feel like this then tbh there's a 90% chance you're in one of these groups.

I feel like this is highly loaded and bordering on false accusations/misinformation, but I'm sure it was unintentional. Also, I feel like I hardly see you around, and I think you're a person with lots of ideas and opinions that are worth sharing, so why not come visit us in our regular haunts and realize that perhaps you may have a few misconceptions about the RPT? :)

edit: TL;DR I don't see a real clique problem (but it is good to have such concerns) and anyone is free to join our skype chats and events. TBH I'm kinda sick of the regular faces like Foxrally (ew) and I want to meet new faces.

 

[Foxrally]

TBH I'm kinda sick of the regular faces like Foxrally (ew)

 

[Retro Bug]

I'm coming back to this thread to respond to a number of things but I wanted to say this:

I'm noticing a source of this clique IS the Skype chat and can we address this as well? If this is an RPC Chat, why isn't there an official RPC Skype public thread there where people can be asked to be added to the group? That seems a bit exclusionary to me… And if it can't fit all the people maybe you should find a platform that actually does?

And just to nip the "it's not an official official chat" in the bud, I've definitely seen current and previous mod dictate the chat saying what is or isn't to be discussed and seeing the chat as an extension of the RPC.

Firstly, it's the RPT, Theatre now, not Corner (;

I'm sorry this comes off extremely condescending and passive-aggressive, and not at all necessary. I think you understood what she meant and nit-picky things like that during a serious conversation comes off as such, especially when it was called the RPC for a number of years. I'm hoping you didn't mean it like that. :/

 

[moon]

I'm sorry if I used the wrong smiley, I'm not the kind of person who makes fun of people who get things wrong d: I just found it a bit funny that Kik (and you!) kept saying RPC when it hasn't been called that in over half a year. But I still call Forum Games "Other Trivia" sometimes haha, old habits are difficult to get rid of.

@ skype
I think the RP people skype chat made this place a lot cozier and more fun, and to my knowledge we still haven't denied anybody who wanted to join? And not really hidden it either - there are tons of quotes in the quote threads around PC from that chat over the last year, for example. But the official vs unofficial is a discussion that resurfaces once in a while and now is maybe a good time to bring it up again c:

 

[Retro Bug]

Sorry for the OOC-ness, I know this isn't the root of the issue that was meant to be discussed in this thread i.e beginner roleplayers and instead took a very different route.

@ skype
I think the RP people skype chat made this place a lot cozier and more fun, and to my knowledge we still haven't denied anybody who wanted to join? And not really hidden it either - there are tons of quotes in the quote threads around PC from that chat over the last year, for example. But the official vs unofficial is a discussion that resurfaces once in a while and now is maybe a good time to bring it up again c:

I don't understand this...? Just because you posted a few obscure quotes and say everyone is welcome doesn't mean that everyone has access or is welcome or knows about it...? That's nice to say in theory, but when it comes to reality it still comes off exclusionary and assuming (to think everyone apparently knows about it). It seems like you guys are picking and choosing who comes in (Like how a new chat was started just hours ago, but I don't remember being invited into it. Hmm.).

 

[Dusty]

I don't think that there is elitism per say, but I do think that there is a bit of a clique problem. However I don't really think that is something that we are able to fix, some people just get along with other people better than others, and that's just part of society. And as for using Skype, I think that can make people think that we are being elitist in some way, not including others in our conversations. But that can be a tool to use within a group of roleplayers as well, so I don't think that using Skype as an example of elitism is a good one...

However I think that the major problem that this place does have is a lack of more basic roleplays. I've gone on to a couple other sites for short amounts of time looking around, and from what it seems like a lot of other sites do is they have different difficulties in terms of the roleplays. They have one section for easy roleplays that are a few sentences to a paragraph where beginners can kind of get a hang for it, or where experienced roleplayers can go to do a more relaxing less demanding story. Then they had intermediate and advanced, each having more length and quality expectation required in each category. Maybe that's something that we need to do, try to cater to those who want to have basic and fun roleplays, as well as longer ones with more expectations required.

I know that for one is something that bothers me when I roleplay with other people is simply quality of writing. Maybe that is elitist of me, but I have roleplayed with people in the past with little things about them that just seem to get irritated at them, whether is was grammar or a garish CSS or their personality in or outside of the RP. Maybe that's something that I need to work on as a person, be more accepting of others in general including their mistakes.

 

[Nagi]

so after reading through this thread and the issues it rises, i figure i give you my two cents as well. as is visible, most of us are rather defensive of the way things are at the moment. i do understand where OP is coming from, as i experienced a similar sense of exclusion that Anivia mentioned when i first (re)joined here. at the same time however, i was assimilated into this supposed 'clique' quite easily as well, and i think the same will go for any new RPers that join us in these forums, provided they speak up and participate.

there is one issue that i want to have cleared up regarding Skype, however.

currently, there is a chat called the ''RPBackstage'' - that i absolutely adore, might i add - but i can very easily see how the existence of this chat may turn away newcomers. the name, as well as the apparent moderation of the chat Retro Bug mentioned, seem to strongly suggest that this chat is an extension of the RPT as it is here. still, there has been a strong resistance from members of this chat to call it 'official', with seemingly only one underlying reason: to be able to 'select' who joins. isn't that exactly what elitism entails? several of us have had to meet certain criteria before being allowed in, and there has also been some hate for members that were added without meeting them.
so, what i'm trying to say is this: we need to either make the chat an official RPT chat, name it the RPBackstage, and put a join link somewhere visible on the forums so people can join freely (similar to UG chat)... OR we need to decide that the chat is purely a friend group, and carry on as it is now. if we choose the latter option however, i think we need to stop putting quotes of it in the quote thread, get rid of the moderator hierarchy in it entirely, and probably stop calling it the RPBackstage as well. honestly, this wouldn't even be that much of an issue for the RPT i don't think, as nearly all RPs in this forum i think have skype chats of their own anyway.

 

[Strange]

Umm, I don't understand why you think that beginners aren't feeling welcome. I mean, I get the whole issue with the chat thing, but other than that I don't see any problems with welcoming beginners. When I first joined I had zero roleplay experience, aside from a childish roelplay-esque forum when I was 10, and I was easily able to join and participate in a roleplay. And on top of that I felt welcomed and like I was a part of something because everyone in the roleplay helped me get better, to the point where now I'm a GM myself. And have roleplays who are open to everyone with no limits, which I've made a point to say in each one. I can see where some people might feel like they're being excluded by not being able to join certain roleplays, but honestly if they're going to exclude you from their roleplays, then you probably wouldn't have had a good time roleplaying with them anyway.

also a sidenote, because I feel like it needs to be said, Things like this:

If you don't feel like this then tbh there's a 90% chance you're in one of these groups.

come across very rude and insulting to the people reading it. Especially after bashing people for being in groups to begin with.

 

[Circuit]

still, there has been a strong resistance from members of this chat to call it 'official', with seemingly only one underlying reason: to be able to 'select' who joins.

I wasn't going to join in with this, but I want to point something out regarding this, and only this.

I myself also do protest against become official, however my reason for this does not include the one you listed here. In fact, I would argue many people also do not feel this way. This is proven by the fact that a) anyone who asks gets in pretty much straight away b) people not even in the RPT have been added in at some point before. We aren't "selective" about who gets in, it's just we have to let them in if this isn't official.

The reason I myself don't want the chat to become official is because then the rules of the chat have to be hardened to mimic those of PC. And should that happen, a lot of the fun, banterous and quirky conversation we have would disappear.

Saying that we "select" who gets in suggests that we seclude people because we don't we don't want them around. The fact that there have been, and will in future be arguments and disputes in the RPT and RPB suggests otherwise. That statement is, in my opinion nearly entirely wrong, and sheds the entirety of those involved in the RPB in a very bad light.

 

[Arsenic]

Well this is a lot more serious discussion than I expected.....

The only thing I can really talk about is within the actual RPT, as I have never been to the skype chat.

The biggest problem I see that does scare off new comers is reservations. RPs get filled up by regulars in a matter of hours. More of a problem with closed spot RPs than open spot ones, but still something to be worked on in the future. Hard for beginners to break into the RP when it fills up within the time of a workday.

The only way to alleviate that I suppose would be some form of reserve restriction, such as only being able to reserve in two RPs at a time (any RPs you're currently in would count against this limit, so if you're currently accepted in two RPs, no reservations.)

Now there are probably better solutions if people put more thought into it than I have. Then again, maybe I'm overthinking a problem that isn't really there...

The second thing I have noticed that I think could scare away new comers is all the CSS use. There is so much of it it almost looks required, and I could see new users believing they don't have the skill to fit here.

Now this is less of a problem and more something that just needs to be noticed. It's not hard to get help with CSS here for posts. I, for example, simply asked the wonderful Foxrally for assistance with one for the Outbreak RP (I have no clue what the hell I'm doing with CSS for the most part) and had one back real quick.

The help is there for those who need it, just keep in the back of your minds that a giant row of very professional CSS might frighten off some new comers.


As for the Skype chat situation, I don't know if it would help, but I would be more than happy to host a Discord channel to use as a public chat. Doesn't require an account or any downloads so it might be easier for a wider range of people to join. It also has much better organizational tools so we could make sub-channels for events, specific RPs or what ever else is needed.