Suggestion: The Battleground

Salzorrah · Nov 17, 2016

Okay, before anything else, I know that the next Forum Frontier is going to be up soon, and I could have presented it right there and then, but I think presenting this here is much more suitable because I think if this had gone through FF, it would probably win, or have multitudes of debates akin to Multiverse, and personally, I want another forum that hasnt won the past be able to win this time so yeah.

Basically, some members, including some mods, have been talking about a forum that works similarly to the UG wherein trainer games, journey games, "tabletop-styled" games, games usually hosted by me on the Underground, "LegendChu Production" games, CYOAs and the like can be placed.

I know what you're saying, it could be easily put in the Playground, or the Underground, or even RPT.

Well, one of us stated why this should not be placed in PG

The point is to host games that are otherwise too complicated to be hosted in the playground - they get lost in the sea of the post-n-run games

As for UG, the environment there is already too salty (literally and figuratively) for any new games to go through it, and people would basically be turned off from the idea, even if you rebrand it. Besides, the culture there is pretty much a solid thing, and I doubt thats going any time soon.

RPT is much more indepth and requires stories from the people joining, which is not the focus of the Battleground, which is the placeholder name for the forum.

Most of us have agreed that this forum could be placed as a subforum for the Playground, and we could maybe beta test games in the VIP Forest, gauge how well these games can get.

What do you guys think?

Klippy · Nov 17, 2016

I feel like there's absolutely no pitch here? You've given a name, and a list of "games" it could hold, but I have no clue what it's even about.

Her · Nov 17, 2016

it seems like you just want to make a forum for you and your friends

Managrimm · Nov 17, 2016

I'm in favor of this. I keep wanting to run tabletop-ish games for people on here, but there isn't really a good place for it since it wouldn't fit in the roleplay area and it's too in-depth for the games area.

Aquacorde · Nov 17, 2016

The placeholder name of "The Battleground" may be confusing ~~and unfortunately reminiscent of "Thunderdome"~~ but the pitch is, in essence, "a forum to host games that are otherwise too complicated to be hosted in the playground- they get lost in the sea of the post-n-run games there". UG is this for Mafia games, but there could be many more styles of in-depth games hosted and played on PC. Unfortunately they tend to get lost or lack attention in the sections we have now to put them in.

The list below is full of games that have been run on PC in the past with varying success in varying sections. When considering this series of examples, please think primarily about the game mechanics to understand what is being pitched here.

LegendChu Productions
PC D&D
CYOAs - Choice Quest, Home, CYOA Fire Emblem, etc
Adventure Games - Ceriah, Heiwa, Auria, etc
Map-Based Strategy Games - Dueala

While such games could and have been hosted in places like RPT, Playground, and Pokémon Trivia, they would thrive more in a dedicated forum. Aventine and Gunner touched on why UG and Playground are not idea, and Pokémon Trivia falls in the same area as Playground. As for RPT, while non-standard and experimental RP is encouraged, most of what we're doing does not actually qualify as RP- as a longer-form collaborative construction of characters and world. The person running it adjudicates how the player's choices go in these game types. And they tend to be either more "active" or "reactive" depending on who's driving the action. Like, whether the GM is reacting to the players or the players are reacting to events run by the GM. Ceriah, as an example, wasn't even really a rp. It was a game with optional RP elements that people enjoyed. You could literally play the entire thing without making a character if you wanted.

I'd like to point out that this friend group that we have was built entirely on creative content- storytelling, worldbuilding, story games, RP, art, etc. What we want to do is have fun creating things for other people- not just our group! If we just wanted to do things with each other, we would be doing that already (and sometimes are). But we want to share and bring other people into the fun, into a community that we believe will enjoy it and participate~

Nah · Nov 17, 2016

If this was to be done, I'd prefer it as an expansion to the Underground rather than become its own separate section.

But first I'd like it to be proven that there is real serious interest in this thing from more than just those in the group involved in conceiving this idea.

Aquacorde · Nov 17, 2016

Expanding UG was considered, but the divide between established UG culture and the potential new games is concerning. I was thinking this proposal would begin as a subforum to Playground, as UG itself was in the beginning.

As for proving interest, about half of my examples were things made by people outside of the group making this proposal, and those that participated in those games were far more numerous as well. The simple popularity of Choice Quest and LegendChu competitions is incredible. UG has been an amazing success.

We have been considering doing a test run of a few game types, but the concern is still that they will be overlooked in the places we try to run them. We'll certainly try tho~

Aquacorde · Nov 17, 2016

They may not be particularly complicated per se, but they are a far cry from the usual post-and-go game types that span the majority of PTriv and Playground. The intent here is to provide a place where not just a few games with heavy promotion can thrive, but a place where all these games will be given attention and love. LegendChu's games are not the only example given, nor the only game type to consider. (As a side note, I do wonder if the upping in activity is mostly just to do with people posting in that particular thread, or do people involved in the game branch out beyond just checking the one thread? If the former is the case, it can't truly be said that activity is being generated due to the event; it is more that the event is a success.)

While some of the games given as examples have worked well where they ended up, what we are proposing is a more cohesive home for a variety of games. The sheer popularity of complex game types has been proven already by UG at this point- why not branch out?

Klippy · Nov 17, 2016

So a couple things of note.

The UG began in VIP/inside of PG before it even became a sub-forum. It organically grew from a couple threads in Playground/VIP before ever reaching full forum status. Of your examples, only a couple display any real success or growth (obviously a few fell short along with WoPC), but the UG started as the mafia games in PG/VIP grew and became increasingly more popular. This, to me, seems like it's just trying to force something to thrive when nothing's shown there's success there. And the growth of the mafia games and style of games doesn't change that they're rooted in the core elements of a mafia game.

At most, I'd say start your games in Playground to see what success is there (and see if the mods are willing to add a prefix tag to suit your visibility needs) OR submit this idea as a Forum Frontier to gauge community interest. I don't see how this warrants a full forum (or even a subforum) as of yet and I think (personally) your pitch needs to be worked on to really display what all you want this area to do that can't be done elsewhere. PG is perfectly suitable to host them as of now and the only way to change it from post-n-go to a dynamic forum game area is by member effort.

Alex · Nov 17, 2016

bring it up in Forum Frontier, see what happens, and go from there

donavannj · Nov 18, 2016

Why wait for Forum Frontier? We can try facilitating this in The Playground sooner than that. At least assuming Netto is on board.

moon · Nov 18, 2016

I don't see the harm in trying a subforum that makes sense for the sake of organization. Not sure anybody wants to try and change what Playground is today, so giving this sort of games a place of their own - a subforum - can be the best of both worlds.

Netto Azure · Nov 18, 2016

That's how UG started lol

Lycanthropy · Nov 18, 2016

I kinda still fail to see what exactly the issue is here. I see LegendChu's games and Choice Quest named for example, but as far as I know, those are doing perfectly fine in the places they currently are. Heck, the very existence of the Underground is proof "complicated" games can most certainly be run in the Playground in such a popularity that they've grown out of it.

If you talk to a mod of PG/PT/PGen/whatever-it-fits-into I'm sure they'll be willing to stick the game (so that it doesn't get lost in the crowd of post-and-go threads) and advertise it on the Bulletin Board. I can speak for PokéTrivia as a section that is way more than just post-and-go (as it may look like on first glance). Anything Pokémon related you can't fit in elsewhere is 100% welcome there. :)

Nah · Nov 18, 2016

Aquacorde said:
Expanding UG was considered, but the divide between established UG culture and the potential new games is concerning. I was thinking this proposal would begin as a subforum to Playground, as UG itself was in the beginning.

As for proving interest, about half of my examples were things made by people outside of the group making this proposal, and those that participated in those games were far more numerous as well. The simple popularity of Choice Quest and LegendChu competitions is incredible. UG has been an amazing success.

We have been considering doing a test run of a few game types, but the concern is still that they will be overlooked in the places we try to run them. We'll certainly try tho~

The culture can be changed. Obviously not immediately, but eventually it can be. If these games truly are as popular as you say they are, there shouldn't be any real worry that they'll get drowned out by other activity or culture clash if The Battleground is a subforum of UG or the Playground. I just think that in some cases it's better to make use of/expand upon a pre-existing section rather than have 149753532520 new ones for every little thing is all.

gimmepie · Nov 18, 2016

I honestly would rather not see this in the UG. They're right when saying there is a very clear and distinct divide in the culture here. In fact, a great number of people in our mafia community honestly hate those other games and would probably riot if we started mixing them into mafia.

In my opinion - excluding the stuff that already fits perfectly fine in PT - should either begin as a prefixed option in the Playground (or maybe a Subforum at most) or just be left for the Forum Frontier. If there's really as much interest as you imply, surely it will win FF or become popular enough in the Playground to warrant expansion (as happened with the Underground).

donavannj · Nov 18, 2016

I actually think this would be worse off going through Forum Frontier than it would be if we made a concerted effort to cultivate it like we did with what eventually became The Underground, since there probably won't be any cap on games initially with the Forum Frontier, and the forum would probably be flooded with too many games right out of the gate.

Aventine said:
I think it's important to first address the common counterpoint that there IS a forum for it: The Playground. Why the Playground won't work is simply because of the 'culture' of that forum. It's riddled with Post-N-Run games. Structured games (mafia, for an example) simply don't last there. Hence why the Underground became a reality. Gunner already mentioned this but I thought i would touch upon it again.

We didn't make the Underground its own forum or subforum straight from the word "Go", though. Tons of time and effort (by both users and staff) was spent cultivating the soil so it could grow before it even had its own subforum. It transitioned as fast as it did because there was significant demand and participation.

The post-and-go games and these deeper games can coexist. We have the ability to prefix the threads with tags and can sticky games to encourage participation. (also, please go to the bottom of my post because I do want to make these games happen).

adventure said:
I don't see the harm in trying a subforum that makes sense for the sake of organization. Not sure anybody wants to try and change what Playground is today, so giving this sort of games a place of their own - a subforum - can be the best of both worlds.

That's the thing, though. The Playground has always been a place for non-Pokemon themed forum games in general, not just the post-and-go ones. It has always been dominated by post-and-go games that have some mild chit-chat sprinkled in going as far back as I can recall (which goes back to 2007). There's no actual cap on how complicated a game can get, other than that mafia games go in The Underground. There would be no changing of The Playground necessary to fit these types of games in.

Salzorrah said:
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