6th Gen History Repeating?

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?

 

[Howmander]

Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?

That's one thing that always bugs me about people criticizing pokemon games: "Oh, I've been playing this game since the orignal games came out in 1999 and they're getting easier every gen!" totally ignoring basic logic: (1) if you were 7 in 1999 and 23 in 2015, OFCOURSE games are going to be easier and (2) if you've been playing a game series for 16 years, unless you have some sort of learning disability, OFCOURSE you're going to get better at the game series. That's called learning. EVERYONE gets better doing something for long periods at a time.

 

[Cerberus87]

Back when the original Ruby and Sapphire games came out, fans criticized them for the removal of certain features and the inability to trade in their Pokémon from their GB games onto the new GBA games. This gave Gen 3 the reputation as the overall worst of the series, having to fail to surpass the sales of the first two generations. Now its remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, are out, and it looks like the same thing is happening within the fandom, only this time the criticism was towards the removal of character customization from XY and Battle Frontier from Emerald, as well as how it's "too easy," even though the difficulty is basically the same as the originals, which the Hoenn fans enjoyed when they were kids themselves. Because of these cons, fans from various forums are calling ORAS atrocious and the downfall of the Pokémon franchise. It feels like Gen 3 will indeed forever be known as the worst of the series, but what baffles me is that its overall sales are getting close to XY's sales despite the fans' constant bashing towards the remakes. Has anyone else notice this, and are they justified or just mere exaggerations?

The tears of the Hoenn fans who claim their childhood was "ruined" taste really sweet...

That's one thing that always bugs me about people criticizing pokemon games: "Oh, I've been playing this game since the orignal games came out in 1999 and they're getting easier every gen!" totally ignoring basic logic: (1) if you were 7 in 1999 and 23 in 2015, OFCOURSE games are going to be easier and (2) if you've been playing a game series for 16 years, unless you have some sort of learning disability, OFCOURSE you're going to get better at the game series. That's called learning. EVERYONE gets better doing something for long periods at a time.

I'll be very honest: Pokémon is a stale series and the remakes make it worse when they don't bring new things to the table. It's been since 4th gen that there isn't a significant change in mechanics. Mega Evolution is just a way to give evolutions to Pokémon that already have final forms. Storywise, it's always the same thing as well: get all the 8 badges, beat evil team after 7th badge and catch legendary, and beat the league. When GF changes something, it's rarely praised (story in BW) and often criticized (all new Pokémon roster in the same BW). Also there's more effort put into the "metagame" these days than the actual game. The metagame with its number obsession doesn't attract me in the least. The Battle Frontier Brains in Platinum sorta showed that the League doesn't mean squat in the end, so why is the story always the same thing with a new coat of paint every time?

 

[Howmander]

The tears of the Hoenn fans who claim their childhood was "ruined" taste really sweet...



I'll be very honest: Pokémon is a stale series and the remakes make it worse when they don't bring new things to the table. It's been since 4th gen that there isn't a significant change in mechanics. Mega Evolution is just a way to give evolutions to Pokémon that already have final forms. Storywise, it's always the same thing as well: get all the 8 badges, beat evil team after 7th badge and catch legendary, and beat the league. When GF changes something, it's rarely praised (story in BW) and often criticized (all new Pokémon roster in the same BW). Also there's more effort put into the "metagame" these days than the actual game. The metagame with its number obsession doesn't attract me in the least. The Battle Frontier Brains in Platinum sorta showed that the League doesn't mean squat in the end, so why is the story always the same thing with a new coat of paint every time?

Okay, first off, the game hasn't had significant change in the mechanics since the very first game, everything has been pretty much the same, except for comparatively minor changes (double/triple battles, etc) that's what has been keeping it popular. Look at the Mega Man series, they started going for a more graphically beautiful games, changing this that and the other thing about it in Mega Man 7, and 8, fans hated it, so mega man 9 and 10 went right back to the orignal NES mechanics and palet. Heck, mega man 10 even removed the ability to slide and charge the mega buster to make it more like the original games. And I don't understand what you mean by more effort being put into the meta game, it's nothing more than regular battles that you did hundreds of times in teh main story, the only difference is that the opponents are other people instead of random AI. The focus on the numbers has nothing to do with gamefreak, it's other players that are putting the focus on that. How can you see the huge amount of work put into the new games and claim they put more into the metagame when they literally did NOTHING beyond the exact same battle format you play in game? Now finally, you say that the games are the same over and over, which is a fair point, but you keep playing them, so obviously they're doing SOMETHING right by sticking to that format. After all, how many series ACTUALLY change over the years? you play Final Fantasy 1 and then the very latest final fantasy, it's still exactly the same just with in depth stories and amazing visuals, but it's still always the same thing: Heroes wander the world, do random tasks for people, find better weapons/spells/monsters, beat the bad guy, find out the bad guy WASN'T the bad guy but now fight the REAL bad guy, game over. Call of Duty: kill nazis, zombies, ghost, whatever until you fight the main nazis, zombies, ghosts, whatever, then go online and fight other people. Resident Evil: Watch 20 minute CGI intro, do one quicktime event, 14 minute CGI, one quicktime event, find guns, mow down zombies, 14 minute CGI and then your done.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Okay, first off, the game hasn't had significant change in the mechanics since the very first game, everything has been pretty much the same, except for comparatively minor changes (double/triple battles, etc) that's what has been keeping it popular. Look at the Mega Man series, they started going for a more graphically beautiful games, changing this that and the other thing about it in Mega Man 7, and 8, fans hated it, so mega man 9 and 10 went right back to the orignal NES mechanics and palet. Heck, mega man 10 even removed the ability to slide and charge the mega buster to make it more like the original games. And I don't understand what you mean by more effort being put into the meta game, it's nothing more than regular battles that you did hundreds of times in teh main story, the only difference is that the opponents are other people instead of random AI. The focus on the numbers has nothing to do with gamefreak, it's other players that are putting the focus on that. How can you see the huge amount of work put into the new games and claim they put more into the metagame when they literally did NOTHING beyond the exact same battle format you play in game? Now finally, you say that the games are the same over and over, which is a fair point, but you keep playing them, so obviously they're doing SOMETHING right by sticking to that format. After all, how many series ACTUALLY change over the years? you play Final Fantasy 1 and then the very latest final fantasy, it's still exactly the same just with in depth stories and amazing visuals, but it's still always the same thing: Heroes wander the world, do random tasks for people, find better weapons/spells/monsters, beat the bad guy, find out the bad guy WASN'T the bad guy but now fight the REAL bad guy, game over. Call of Duty: kill nazis, zombies, ghost, whatever until you fight the main nazis, zombies, ghosts, whatever, then go online and fight other people. Resident Evil: Watch 20 minute CGI intro, do one quicktime event, 14 minute CGI, one quicktime event, find guns, mow down zombies, 14 minute CGI and then your done.

We should also mention what happens when you try to change a game series' formula for the sake of it. Star Fox Adventures, Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts, Resident Evil 5, Sonic Boom, etc. Plus, the GCN Pokémon games, despite having a different story format, wasn't so well-received because of the lack of elements that made the main handheld games so great in the first place.

 

[Howmander]

We should also mention what happens when you try to change a game series' formula for the sake of it. Star Fox Adventures, Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts, Resident Evil 5, Sonic Boom, etc. Plus, the GCN Pokémon games, despite having a different story format, wasn't so well-received because of the lack of elements that made the main handheld games so great in the first place.

That is utterly true. I liked the GCN pokemon games, but yes, it lost a HUGE part of the game by not allowing wild pokemon capturing, breeding, etc, cause I can say without a shred of exaggeration, that is the ENTIRE game for me (I got Y the day it came out, I racked up 999 hours and I'm STILL only just past the second gym. Once I discovered Wonder Trade, the GTS and the ability to breed pokemon and grow berries, that is literally ALL I did for a year!

 

[TheUnit684]

I haven't really heard ANY negative backlash towards ORAS like this...this post is the first I've heard it. I personally NEVER had any negative feelings towards Hoenn. Yeah I missed character customization, but really, I never cared about compatibility between gen 1 and 2 and Hoenn. It does feel "too easy" in a way, however, I attribute this mostly to Exp share and moveset changes. Movesets in Gen 3 Hoenn were ALOT worse than they are in Gen 6 Hoenn. Personally, ORAS are my favorite Pokemon games, and Ruby/Sapphire are probably the games that have the most nostalgic value for me.

Before you get on me for it, I did play Gen 1 and Gen 2 prior to Gen 3's release. I didn't care at all about trading between the Generations. When I found out there was postgame that allowed you to trade between Ruby/Sapphire and FireRed/LeafGreen, I was celebrating it because it felt like a nice bonus. Game Freak doesn't HAVE to include all the features in all the games. When they bring back a popular feature, we should be celebrating its inclusion, not complaining whenever its absent. Try to have a more positive outlook. :)

 

[Orithan]

The hate comes from mostly R/S/E fanboys who wanted the remakes to be little more than a port of their nostalgic games to Gen VI plus Battle Frontier and their favorite pokemon getting megas *cough*Milotic and Flygon*cough* and those who want something groundbreaking every title, whereas the bulk of the sales aside from those people I imagine comes from those never played the originals like myself. That's my theory anyway.
I do however think that Pokemon is in some danger of dying considering it has suffered two consecutive generations of decline, but that is for another topic.

 

[Alfieri]

Honestly, who cares?
Fans will complain about anything. The games are a great remake. They stay true to the Hoenn formula and expand upon the story and flesh out characters like Wally and May. Ruby and Sapphire got backlash because older fans couldn't use their Game Boy Pokemon anymore. People complain about Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire because of no battle frontier and lack of trainer customization. People still complain about no Pokemon following you so with that in mind, if someone complains about the series, ignore it.

 

[blue]

For me it's not really an issue, aslong as I'm enjoying playing the games then I'm happy with that. I'll be honest though I haven't heard much negativity surrounding ORAS yet, if anything the reception has been generally positive. The sales figure for the games has already surpassed 9 million, and that's only within 3 months of being on sale.

 

[Candy]

If I want to be honest, I actually view ORAS as a prettied up version of the original RSE. Aside from plotline, the whole place looks like a pure C+P of the original Hoenn in terms of looks and locations. FRLG gets the Sevii Isles, HGSS gets a new Safari Zone and the Pokeathlon and ORAS? Nothing. A whole big cauldron of nothing. No Battle Frontiers, no extra features, and really, the only new feature we got was the Soaring in the Sky feature.

And honestly, that's not even a new thing in Pokemon. We got to fly on the Lati twins at Pokemon Rangers: Guardian Signs. It didn't really hyped me up when the feature was announced, 'cause I've done it before. It's not that special.

And also, this is coming from someone whose first game is Sapphire. It feels more like playing RSE all over again, this time with the updated mechanics after Gen 3. Nothing else really special. It kinda disappointed me. I'd play XY all over again than ORAS tbh.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

If I want to be honest, I actually view ORAS as a prettied up version of the original RSE. Aside from plotline, the whole place looks like a pure C+P of the original Hoenn in terms of looks and locations. FRLG gets the Sevii Isles, HGSS gets a new Safari Zone and the Pokeathlon and ORAS? Nothing. A whole big cauldron of nothing. No Battle Frontiers, no extra features, and really, the only new feature we got was the Soaring in the Sky feature.

And honestly, that's not even a new thing in Pokemon. We got to fly on the Lati twins at Pokemon Rangers: Guardian Signs. It didn't really hyped me up when the feature was announced, 'cause I've done it before. It's not that special.

And also, this is coming from someone whose first game is Sapphire. It feels more like playing RSE all over again, this time with the updated mechanics after Gen 3. Nothing else really special. It kinda disappointed me. I'd play XY all over again than ORAS tbh.

Funny thing you mention that as Kanto fans who disliked FrLg tend to claim their remake was the most copy and paste of them thus far...at least the one's I've heard from.

I would've liked real new areas though.
Pinkie's post (and his vm to me) are also the first time I hear negative feedback like this. Most of the complaints are due to lack of frontier or any sort of good post Delta Episode stuff.

 

[Hikamaru]

I don't really see anything bad with OR/AS because they patched up most issues that happened in the original games, such as movesets, along with easier ways to level up, even if the new Exp. Share eliminates any form of challenge if left on too offten. I didn't mind lack of trainer customization (I already love May's design anyway) or no Battle Frontier, but I do feel for those who did like those features even if there was a statement on Reddit explaining the axing of the Frontier.

Also, these games are doing way better sales-wise than the previous remakes, but then we have the end-of-year holiday season factoring in there. The Delta Episode was also something new in terms of postgame content, because it was an entirely extra story (albeit short) and while soaring on Latias/Latios is almost like what you did flying around with them in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs it still allows you to find and catch legendaries, and a few non-Hoenn Pokemon as well.

DexNav was also revolutionary, as well as the ability to now fly to anywhere, including routes. The reason why DexNav is something great about this game that I hope doesn't disappear in the next game is because it made finding hidden abilities and good IV'd Pokemon easier, which is a blessing to competitive players.

 

[KENSHlN]

I don't really see anything bad with OR/AS because they patched up most issues that happened in the original games, such as movesets, along with easier ways to level up, even if the new Exp. Share eliminates any form of challenge if left on too offten. I didn't mind lack of trainer customization (I already love May's design anyway) or no Battle Frontier, but I do feel for those who did like those features even if there was a statement on Reddit explaining the axing of the Frontier.

Also, these games are doing way better sales-wise than the previous remakes, but then we have the end-of-year holiday season factoring in there. The Delta Episode was also something new in terms of postgame content, because it was an entirely extra story (albeit short) and while soaring on Latias/Latios is almost like what you did flying around with them in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs it still allows you to find and catch legendaries, and a few non-Hoenn Pokemon as well.

DexNav was also revolutionary, as well as the ability to now fly to anywhere, including routes. The reason why DexNav is something great about this game that I hope doesn't disappear in the next game is because it made finding hidden abilities and good IV'd Pokemon easier, which is a blessing to competitive players.

So much win in this post. Go hika. xD

The only complaint I've seen was this:
3/10 too much water

I think Nintendo has been getting better making the stories ever since BW. XY was fairly solid. I don't like ORAS's story, because I feel like it takes too long for it to develop. With that being said, the Delta Episode was the best thing they've ever done story-wise too.
My wish would be for there to be an episode on every single legendary there is. Because I feel like that's been the weakest part in the franchise as far as story telling goes. There will be one plot throughout the game just about the game's respective main legendary. Then nothing about any of the others you can catch.
So I think the Delta Episode was a great step in the right direction. We can only hope they build on that.

XY made online features completely useable and easy to access. The best part was the character customization just because it feels more rpg like. Everyone can have their own unique identity which is special because all of us are different to begin with. That was such a great feature. I'll let it pass that it didn't happen in ORAS because it is a remake ultimately...

That dexnav feature was the best addition overall. Now you have some control as to what you actually can look for.

There is just waaaayy too much to analyze. @__@

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

For me it's not really an issue, aslong as I'm enjoying playing the games then I'm happy with that. I'll be honest though I haven't heard much negativity surrounding ORAS yet, if anything the reception has been generally positive. The sales figure for the games has already surpassed 9 million, and that's only within 3 months of being on sale.

The large negativity surrounding ORAS are common on 4chan's /vp/ and Reddit, as well as other competitive-focused websites such as Smashboards, which all make up the bulk of the general opinions from the internet community. It's important for companies to take these websites seriously and consider not ticking them off, or else there may be online riots spamming through their e-mail and forums.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

warning I'm about to rant

ORAS made me realize that the Pokemon fanbase is really bad in general. It's actually related to the new Megas and not to the battle frontier.

Back when GameFreak announced that Gen 3 was going to have remakes, everyone was so excited, like I remember going on Pokemon Showdown and see lots of joke teams that featured 6 pokemon with Celebrate as their only move and their own alt being something such as "HOENN CONFIRMED" or "GEN 3 CONFIRMED". But now that ORAS is out everyone is complaining.
"WHY DID BEEDRILL, PIDGEOT AND GLALIE GET MEGAS??? WHY AUDINO, WHY SLOWBRO, WHY CAMERUPT, WHY FUCKING LOPUNNY OF ALL THINGS?! WHERE'S MY MEGA FLYGON AND MEGA MILOTIC???"
Yeah. You'll see crap like this on 4chan, Reddit, GameFAQs as well as the comments to the official Pokemon videos. I know Pokemon is supposed to be for kids, but I bet most of the users who complained were at least 15. They need to thank GF for actually giving them a goddamn remake and not to act like the German kid we all know and love because they didn't get Mega Flygon. GF knows what's doing and gave mega evolutions both to fan favourites (looking at you, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Blastoise) AND to Pokemon that actually needed them, such as Beedrill, Glalie and Pidgeot. And honestly, they care about you. You wanted Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross? They gave you Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross. You wanted a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria? They gave you a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria. But all the Pokemon fanbase cares about is "WHY WATER/DARK MEGA GYARA, WHY DID GLALIE GET A MEGA AND NOT FROSLASS, HOW COME MEGA FLYGON/MILOTIC IS NOT A THING YET." I even saw some extremist comments such as "I'm done with Pokemon if they don't show us Mega Flygon" or "If Blissey gets a mega I'm gonna quit this game". Not kidding.
Not to mention everytime a powerful Pokemon (Salamence) gets a mega, they scream "WHY DO YOU MAKE OP POKEMON EVEN MORE OP" and when a Pokemon such as Audino gets a mega, they go "WHY FUCKING AUDINO OF ALL THINGS VOLCARONA NEEDS A FUCKING MEGA".

 

[Nah]

warning I'm about to rant

ORAS made me realize that the Pokemon fanbase is really bad in general. It's actually related to the new Megas and not to the battle frontier.

Back when GameFreak announced that Gen 3 was going to have remakes, everyone was so excited, like I remember going on Pokemon Showdown and see lots of joke teams that featured 6 pokemon with Celebrate as their only move and their own alt being something such as "HOENN CONFIRMED" or "GEN 3 CONFIRMED". But now that ORAS is out everyone is complaining.
"WHY DID BEEDRILL, PIDGEOT AND GLALIE GET MEGAS??? WHY AUDINO, WHY SLOWBRO, WHY CAMERUPT, WHY FUCKING LOPUNNY OF ALL THINGS?! WHERE'S MY MEGA FLYGON AND MEGA MILOTIC???"
Yeah. You'll see crap like this on 4chan, Reddit, GameFAQs as well as the comments to the official Pokemon videos. I know Pokemon is supposed to be for kids, but I bet most of the users who complained were at least 15. They need to thank GF for actually giving them a goddamn remake and not to act like the German kid we all know and love because they didn't get Mega Flygon. GF knows what's doing and gave mega evolutions both to fan favourites (looking at you, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Blastoise) AND to Pokemon that actually needed them, such as Beedrill, Glalie and Pidgeot. And honestly, they care about you. You wanted Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross? They gave you Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross. You wanted a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria? They gave you a Dragon/Fairy Mega Altaria. But all the Pokemon fanbase cares about is "WHY WATER/DARK MEGA GYARA, WHY DID GLALIE GET A MEGA AND NOT FROSLASS, HOW COME MEGA FLYGON/MILOTIC IS NOT A THING YET." I even saw some extremist comments such as "I'm done with Pokemon if they don't show us Mega Flygon" or "If Blissey gets a mega I'm gonna quit this game". Not kidding.
Not to mention everytime a powerful Pokemon (Salamence) gets a mega, they scream "WHY DO YOU MAKE OP POKEMON EVEN MORE OP" and when a Pokemon such as Audino gets a mega, they go "WHY FUCKING AUDINO OF ALL THINGS VOLCARONA NEEDS A FUCKING MEGA".

I think that most (video game) fanbases have parts like this. They get really vocal about something they want. You give it to them. They get super-excited over news of the announcement of the thing they wanted. Then they bitch and whine about it after release because it didn't quite match every last little detail they wanted. They ask for the devs to innovate and try something new. The devs do that. Then they cry and scream because the devs "ruined" the game and it's "not [insert franchise here] anymore"......as if that's the mature way to do things. As if the game should be made to suit any one person's specific tastes.

Not saying that the entirety of any fanbase is like that, but there's a sizeable chunk of people like that in most of 'em. I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I think that most (video game) fanbases have parts like this. They get really vocal about something they want. You give it to them. They get super-excited over news of the announcement of the thing they wanted. Then they bitch and whine about it after release because it didn't quite match every last little detail they wanted. They ask for the devs to innovate and try something new. The devs do that. Then they cry and scream because the devs "ruined" the game and it's "not [insert franchise here] anymore"......as if that's the mature way to do things. As if the game should be made to suit any one person's specific tastes.

Not saying that the entirety of any fanbase is like that, but there's a sizeable chunk of people like that in most of 'em. I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes.

Exactly. But I think this is one of the most severe cases in existence. Not only does Pokemon have a huge fanbase already, but EVERYONE seemed to love Gen 3 during BW2, and XY, while during DPP and HGSS they bitched about this gen and called it the worst gen ever. So when ORAS was announced, the fans made a big 'tam-tam' about it. And you know the rest. Seriously, Reddit is a [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/2rftbj/rage_thread_happy_new_year_edition/"]gold mine.[/URL]

 

[Megan]

Today people complain about how horrible the games have become and tomorrow they'll buy the new games, anyway. You know, there are some people who can only show appreciation by complaining about what they love and it's not, that Pokemon is the only franchise that's getting that treatment, either.

I say: let the sales decide how good the games are, because numbers don't care about opinions.

I think that people don't really know exactly what it is they want sometimes.

You wouldn't even believe how true your statement is.

 

[Howmander]

You know someone made an excellent point in that the move types were different in the original games than they were currently and I completely forgot about that. So in that respect, yes, I would say the current gen IS easier than the originals because in the originals there were SO many pokemon can couldn't learn STAB attacks because they were physical attackers but all their STAB movesets were special and vice versa. Back then Every fire, Water, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Dragon and Dark type move was special and every normal, fighting, poison, ground, flying, bug, rock, ghost and steel type move was physical, so there were quite a few pokemon that never got that bonus 50% damage from their movesets so a lot of pokemon back then may have had a harder time going through the game than they do now.